ba_midi
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JABB deal for Sonar
I'm not sure this belongs in this section, but oh well ...
I really like the Garritan Orchestra plugins. Some of the strings are great.
So because of the strength of Garritan's orchestra stuff, I went ahead and got the CW / Garritan deal for JABB.
I am sorry to say this is one of the worst purchases I've ever made. The sounds are plain awful in my opinion. The brass sound like toys, the winds are terrible, the rhythm sections sounds like they came from Radio Shack.
I'm sure there will be those who like these, but I'm feeling bad about spending the money on this package. Buyer beware.
It just shows that you can't even trust a 'name' brand anymore. Sigh.
I think it's the last time I'm going to buy this type of thing from the Cakewalk store as well.
[rant mode off - sorry]
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garrigus
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Re:JABB deal for Sonar
2010/10/20 19:51:09
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birdg735
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Re:JABB deal for Sonar
2010/10/20 20:44:25
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Quite a damning review - but timely - as I was going to pop for this deal as well.
So because of the strength of Garritan's orchestra stuff, I went ahead and got the CW / Garritan deal for JABB.
I am sorry to say this is one of the worst purchases I've ever made. The sounds are plain awful in my opinion. The brass sound like toys, the winds are terrible, the rhythm sections sounds like they came from Radio Shack.
Did you check out the demos on the Garritan site? Are they a close representation of the library? I think it's the last time I'm going to buy this type of thing from the Cakewalk store as well.
Because of this, or are there other reasons? Thanks for saving me $79!! - B
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windsurfer25x
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Re:JABB deal for Sonar
2010/10/20 21:40:15
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Whoa, good thing I came across this thread... I was going to buy that too.
Maybe I'll go check to see if there are demos... but for now I'll hold onto my $$
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ba_midi
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Re:JABB deal for Sonar
2010/10/20 21:53:19
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Sorry to hear JABB doesn't have good sounds. I personally have not tried it. Instead, I have Vir2 MOJO, which is excellent... http://digifreq.com/?Vir2MOJO It does cost quite a bit more though. They have some demos here: http://vir2.com/instruments/mojo-horn-section Scott THanks for the info Scott. Frankly - I don't really need more of this stuff, it was just such a good price from a brand I thought would be of high quality that I just jumped on it. I like to contribute, so to speak, to companies making good products for us musicians. But this particular sample set is stunningly low-level. I spent a little more time with it hoping to find SOMETHING of worth for my bucks. Nope. Nada. The guitars sound like cheezy Casio CZ101 guitars. I'm simply shocked at the total lack of quality in this offering. I'll check out the vir2 stuff just for the awareness of it, but I think I'm going to just hold pat with the other huge libraries I have already anyway.
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ba_midi
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Re:JABB deal for Sonar
2010/10/20 21:55:27
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windsurfer25x
Whoa, good thing I came across this thread... I was going to buy that too.
Maybe I'll go check to see if there are demos... but for now I'll hold onto my $$
I had listened to the JABB demos over at the Garritan site, and while I wasn't blown off my chair, I thought they were 'usable' enough. But having actually purchased and listened to the samples, I'm convinced the demos had a lot of tweaking/producing. I could do that as well, but to me - if the basic unprocessed samples are weak, it's going to mean spending a LOT of time getting them to work in projects. Anyway - yeah, I wish someone had saved me the money LOL.
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ba_midi
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Re:JABB deal for Sonar
2010/10/20 22:00:29
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birdg735
Quite a damning review - but timely - as I was going to pop for this deal as well.
So because of the strength of Garritan's orchestra stuff, I went ahead and got the CW / Garritan deal for JABB. I am sorry to say this is one of the worst purchases I've ever made. The sounds are plain awful in my opinion. The brass sound like toys, the winds are terrible, the rhythm sections sounds like they came from Radio Shack.
Did you check out the demos on the Garritan site? Are they a close representation of the library?
I think it's the last time I'm going to buy this type of thing from the Cakewalk store as well.
Because of this, or are there other reasons?
Thanks for saving me $79!!
- B
Well, let me say I don't give damning reviews lightly because I know it affects someone's work and effort. But at the same time, the customer is not always thought of when it comes to marketing. People will sell us anything without regard to anything but making a profit -- so, again, buyer beware. I also felt it important to give feedback anyway. If a product is great, I usually say so too. We should all be informed not JUST by marketers but by users. Yes I did listen to the demos (see my other reply). As for the CW store - it is one of the worst online stores in my opinion. I'm not trying to be negative or cause bad vibes to anyone -- but it just is a poorly structured and poorly run online store in my personal opinion. SO aside from waiting forever to get the serial # etc (I ended up just going to sleep and waiting until today to follow it up), the product is of sub-par level to me. I honestly don't like being negative - and I don't feel I am. I'm just being honest about my experience and my feeling about the product itself.
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haydn12
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Re:JABB deal for Sonar
2010/10/20 22:16:38
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Just playing sounds back in JABB will not give you a true representation of what the library can do. Make sure you read the manual and learn how to use the controllers for the sounds. This will make the sounds come to life. The majority of the demos on the Garritan website are a true representation on what the library can do. Most of the demos have some added reverb but not much else.
The Steinway piano is a very nice sounding piano for the price. The brush drum kit is my go to kit when I need brushes as it's one of the only libraries that is capable of doing the swirl sound on the snare. I've used the normal kits in quite a few songs. The toms respond quite well to velocity changes.
The brass is designed to build up sections. I usually will take 3 or 4 trumpets to build up an ensemble for a full sound. For building Chicago/BST sections I usually will layer the JABB brass with the Sample Modeling libraries.
The main thing with this library is that you have to use the controllers to bring the sounds to life or it will sound static.
This library is a steal at $79 especially when you consider that just a couple years ago it was $249.
Jim
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ba_midi
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Re:JABB deal for Sonar
2010/10/20 22:43:24
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haydn12
Just playing sounds back in JABB will not give you a true representation of what the library can do. Make sure you read the manual and learn how to use the controllers for the sounds. This will make the sounds come to life. The majority of the demos on the Garritan website are a true representation on what the library can do. Most of the demos have some added reverb but not much else.
The Steinway piano is a very nice sounding piano for the price. The brush drum kit is my go to kit when I need brushes as it's one of the only libraries that is capable of doing the swirl sound on the snare. I've used the normal kits in quite a few songs. The toms respond quite well to velocity changes.
The brass is designed to build up sections. I usually will take 3 or 4 trumpets to build up an ensemble for a full sound. For building Chicago/BST sections I usually will layer the JABB brass with the Sample Modeling libraries.
The main thing with this library is that you have to use the controllers to bring the sounds to life or it will sound static.
This library is a steal at $79 especially when you consider that just a couple years ago it was $249.
Jim
Jim, I appreciate the advice -- but I'm not a newbie to Garritan's operational approach in their playing of the instruments. I'm also not new to orchestras or MIDI or recording, etc. And I wouldn't use an orchestral library *without* using controllers to affect the peformance. So of course I understand one cannot simple play a note on a keyboard and expect it to sound just right. It is simply my opinion that this library is not up to par for me personally - and as I said in my original post that there will probably be those who do like it. Like you, I would build ensembles in ANY orchestral library rather than just use one single 'sample'. But I can get MUCH better sounds out of quite a number of other plugins I already have. To me it's not so much losing the 79 bucks as it is now thinking that I will be more skeptical about what Garritan offers. I simply don't feel these samples were essentially that great to begin with, so there's no 'controller' or technique that would change that. But I appreciate your feedback as well - and I think all you brought up is good for those who may not be aware of the approach to be enlightened, so to speak. So - if this package works for you, I think that's great. And I hope you make many great pieces of music with it.
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bitflipper
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Re:JABB deal for Sonar
2010/10/20 23:21:48
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I heard a piece that Randy Bowser did with JABB and was quite impressed with the authenticity of articulations. He did comment that there had been a learning curve, though.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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ba_midi
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Re:JABB deal for Sonar
2010/10/20 23:39:33
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bitflipper
I heard a piece that Randy Bowser did with JABB and was quite impressed with the authenticity of articulations. He did comment that there had been a learning curve, though.
I listened to the demos from garritan and they - initially - sounded 'good'. Now that I have the package and I listen REALLY carefully, I think I just was having GAS. GAS= Gear Acquisition Syndrome for those who don't know the term lol. No doubt someone can make use of this package and make it sound 'good'. So again I point out that I only am expressing my opinion based on my musical knowledge and experience with both the real orchestra and 'plugins'. If it's the only package I had of this type, I'd probably make use of it too, but being there are other good choices, I'm glad it's not the only one out there. However, yes - I think Randy has used it to its fullest.
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TimV
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Re:JABB deal for Sonar
2010/10/21 01:08:00
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Although I was less impressed than I had hoped to be with a lot the sounds in JABB, some of them have already served me well, in particular the acoustic bass.
I replaced the bass sound I was using in a couple pieces I've been working on with the acoustic bass and it really brought them to life. I also replaced the cello part on one of my pieces with the arco bass and it did a better job of providing the sound I was looking for.
Another piece is a piano duo. Alicia's Keys sounds good, but by itself it lacked the presence I wanted in the upper register. I had doubled the parts with a brighter piano from VI:One, which helped but didn't quite cut it. After getting JABB, I instead doubled them with the Steinway "jazz" piano and it sounds much, much better.
There are several other sounds that I can see being useful in the future as well, so for $79.95 it was worth it for me.
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Beagle
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Re:JABB deal for Sonar
2010/10/21 09:31:10
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I admit that I really wanted to pull the trigger on the $79 JABB when the email hit because I had wanted to get JABB when it first came out but couldn't justify $250 for it.
but I just got Kontakt a few weeks ago and still have a lot of exploring there, so I don't think I need another library at this time to learn how to use.
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bitflipper
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Re:JABB deal for Sonar
2010/10/21 10:22:38
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Kontakt comes with some excellent brass, at least for those of us who use brass as spice rather than as the main course. Unfortunately, sax isn't one of its strengths.
I am quite fond of the saxophone as a lead instrument. It's a nice organic alternative to guitars and synthy-synths. But it's hard. Hard to get the inflections and subtle tonal modulations that are so crucial to turning a resonant brass tube into an expressive instrument. Any instrument that manages that is going to be a **** to learn!
Maybe JABB just sucks, I don't know. But I gotta imagine that any library that even comes close to giving believable brass expression is going to take time to master and probably shouldn't be judged straight out of the box.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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brammer
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Re:JABB deal for Sonar
2010/10/21 10:27:58
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I've found that the controllers really "make" the sound for a lot of this kind of stuff
But, you almost have to "practice" the soft synth as much as a real instrument to get a real sound
Love to find some good wind instruments that don't have such a learning curve
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Glyn Barnes
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Re:JABB deal for Sonar
2010/10/21 10:59:22
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bitflipper
Kontakt comes with some excellent brass, at least for those of us who use brass as spice rather than as the main course. Unfortunately, sax isn't one of its strengths.
For what its worthThe best Saxes in my sample collection are Yellowtools Candy. They are far better than anything in the Kontakt factory library. Kontakt probabaly has the edge on the classical brass. There are quite a few keyswitched articulations and various effects mapped to keys out side the instruments range. Someone with sufficient skill could probably get close to a convincing part.
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ba_midi
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Re:JABB deal for Sonar
2010/10/21 12:41:40
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bitflipper
Kontakt comes with some excellent brass, at least for those of us who use brass as spice rather than as the main course. Unfortunately, sax isn't one of its strengths.
I am quite fond of the saxophone as a lead instrument. It's a nice organic alternative to guitars and synthy-synths. But it's hard. Hard to get the inflections and subtle tonal modulations that are so crucial to turning a resonant brass tube into an expressive instrument. Any instrument that manages that is going to be a **** to learn!
Maybe JABB just sucks, I don't know. But I gotta imagine that any library that even comes close to giving believable brass expression is going to take time to master and probably shouldn't be judged straight out of the box.
Bit, I agree one shouldn't judge anything right out of the box. But you know me better than that, I think. I spend a lot of time at this stuff, and I wouldn't make a strong judgement without some time spent on a product. But there are times when I can tell (for me only) when it's a let-down. I don't know if you remember a track I did called "Sex In The Sax"? I used a Korg M1 plugin and most people were pretty impressed. It goes to show that having a good basic sampleset to work with and then using the proper performance approach (including breath controllers, wheels, etc) can get pretty close to 'real.' But I didn't really want to 'destroy' JABB. I just felt -for me- it was lacking in the very basic/essential area of having a strong sampleset to start with. I'd also bet lots of money that someone can take that library and do some incredible work with it - if they put in the time and effort and do all the tweaking. Humans will, on occassion, do incredible things even if they only have garbage cans to use! ;)
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ba_midi
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Re:JABB deal for Sonar
2010/10/21 12:43:54
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Glyn Barnes
bitflipper
Kontakt comes with some excellent brass, at least for those of us who use brass as spice rather than as the main course. Unfortunately, sax isn't one of its strengths.
For what its worthThe best Saxes in my sample collection are Yellowtools Candy. They are far better than anything in the Kontakt factory library. Kontakt probabaly has the edge on the classical brass.
There are quite a few keyswitched articulations and various effects mapped to keys out side the instruments range. Someone with sufficient skill could probably get close to a convincing part.
Funny you mention Yellowtools. I was having a discussion just the other day and said I thought the entire YT package was underrated. It's got a TON of "usable" soundsets indeed -- and not just brass and other orchestral sets, but even some of their loops, construction set type sounds, etc. It's actually a great product in my opinion.
post edited by ba_midi - 2010/10/21 12:47:28
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birdg735
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Re:JABB deal for Sonar
2010/10/21 16:26:01
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I have been looking at Candy for some time, but ... Instead of taking this thread OT I posted here. Thanks for any info - B
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haydn12
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Re:JABB deal for Sonar
2010/10/21 17:05:41
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I usually use JABB for layering with other sounds, not as solo sounds. Saxes in particular are just hard to solo with in any library I have. Many samples that sound great by themselves suck when used with other samples whereas many thin sounding samples sound great when blended with others. The 4 tenor saxes in JABB may not have the fullest sound when played solo but when you start blending them they start to shine.
The problem with most libraries is that they only give you one of each instrument type (one trumpet, one trombone, one tenor sax, etc.) JABB has 5 different trumpets, 5 different trombones, 4 tenor saxes, etc. each one being a different recorded instrument and played by multiple musicians. The musicians recorded were jazz artists.
I don't consider JABB instruments to be useful in all situations such as orchestral. The trumpets would normally be too bright with the wrong mouthpiece being used for orchestral music. They do work great for big band, Chicago and BST type music.
Jim
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ba_midi
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Re:JABB deal for Sonar
2010/10/21 17:17:35
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Jim,
I agree that the JABB samples may be useful in a layered situation. That's actually probably how I'd use it if at all.
BTW, I'm guessing 'BST' means Blood, Sweat and Tears?
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jungfriend
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Re:JABB deal for Sonar
2010/10/21 17:47:22
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I side with Billy on this one (not that I don't agree with you on most matters). I was unimpressed with the demos at Garritan, and as you have clearly remarked the samples were lacking. I thought the high-pitched, squeaky trumpet was unusable, the clarinets sounded synthetic, and the guitars were lacking. Actually the reason I was considering JABB was that I read somewhere that it had a good nylon string guitar sample for bossa nova style. I have a midi-nylon string guitar and I have been searching for something usuable, and the only one that impresses me so far comes from Muse Samples. However, at $175 (give or take depending on the exchange rate) it seems too pricey for something that I will rarely use.
I am sure that for people with larger needs for this kind of package that it is a value at $79. For me though I have most of these sounds covered fairly well, and will save the money for something else.
Not to highjack the thread, but if anyone knows of a good nylon string guitar sampleset, I am interested. I got some free ones from Pettinhouse, and they are usuable. I also have the Acoustic Guitar Capsule for Infinite Player, and it works to some extent, but both of these have a limitation that bothers me. My midi-nylon is cutaway and so I play in the upper register, but the samples don't sound realistic in the upper register since they are out of range of a normal classical guitar. Playing lower and changing the octave doesn't work either in this case. I can plug the guitar into an amp and mic it, but the piezo pickup sounds are less than desirable. I tried to do it on my Taylor NS-72ce but the tone is just too bright. Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Paul
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Beagle
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Re:JABB deal for Sonar
2010/10/21 17:50:31
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Paul - try www.soundbrewer.com I think his acoustic samples are quite good. I have the electric ones as well, but they aren't that great.
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MarioD
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Re:JABB deal for Sonar
2010/10/21 19:29:33
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A couple of years ago I did purchase JABB but I very seldom use it for the reasons that have been stated thus far. With a wind controller and a midi controller you can get some fairly decent sounds but I could get nothing stellar out of it. I was using it for some backing horns until I tried NI’s Kontakt Sax & Brass for Kore; it can run on the free Kore Player. These are Chris Hein recordings that blow JABB out of the water IMO. Plus the cost is only $59. I believe this is a better deal that the JABB deal.
Just my USD two cents.
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ba_midi
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Re:JABB deal for Sonar
2010/10/21 20:18:30
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Not to highjack the thread, but if anyone knows of a good nylon string guitar sampleset, I am interested. I got some free ones from Pettinhouse, and they are usuable. I also have the Acoustic Guitar Capsule for Infinite Player, and it works to some extent, but both of these have a limitation that bothers me. My midi-nylon is cutaway and so I play in the upper register, but the samples don't sound realistic in the upper register since they are out of range of a normal classical guitar. Playing lower and changing the octave doesn't work either in this case. I can plug the guitar into an amp and mic it, but the piezo pickup sounds are less than desirable. I tried to do it on my Taylor NS-72ce but the tone is just too bright. Any suggestions? Thanks, Paul Paul, If you need a "quick" approach, Dimension Pro actually came with some "almosts" in that area. The steel string and nylon strings guitars were usable in a few circumstances for me. Certainly not perfect, but playable and they worked in a mix. Just as has been discussed here about using performance techniques to make brass and wind (and strings) sound 'right', so is true for any acoustic instrument that is sampled. But, with some good EQ'ing (don't rely on the Dimension Pro internal EQ, use a good one), compression and playing technique - you might actually get something you like.
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jungfriend
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Re:JABB deal for Sonar
2010/10/22 00:58:40
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Thanks for the link. The samples are fairly good for steel string acoustic, but I really need nylon string. For steel string I can mic my Taylor 914ce-LTD (Brazilian rosewood, Sitka Spruce, Adirondack Spruce bracing, and an achingly beautiful tone), or DI my Line 6 Variax Acoustic, either of which will give me better results than any samples because I don't have to translate my technique into articulations.
Actually my Variax Acoustic has a great sounding nylon emulation, and I would use that except the neck is like the neck on a Strat, and doesn't play at all like a classical guitar. Pizzicato and trills don't quite work, and tremolo picking is out of the question because of the distance between the strings.
If you have ever seen the way Scarbee P-Bass works in Kontakt you would know just what I'm looking for except with a nylon string guitar. I think I've figured out a way to do it with double tracking and I'll give it a try soon. I'm going to play it on the Taylor NS72, and on my K. Yairi classical and blend. Sure would be nice though to do it on the midi guitar. I'm also going try running the piezo output of the Carvin NS-1 through a Pandora PX4A, and use the midi out with the Infinite Player samples. Today I had to install rear rack rails in one of the racks so the sliding shelf wouldn't sag, so I'll get to it tomorrow.
Once again though thanks for the suggestions. It won't be perfect, but as long as it's good I'll be happy. Perfect will come later I guess, and I can still play with the expression system on the Taylor NS 72 and see if I can tame some of the brightness.
Paul
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Glyn Barnes
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Re:JABB deal for Sonar
2010/10/22 01:12:12
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voclizr
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Re:JABB deal for Sonar
2010/10/22 02:14:20
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 Gentlemen; As I've seen no examples or links of any works here so far, may I offer this; [link=http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=1058168&songID=9674641]http://www.soundclick.com...168&songID=9674641[/link] JABB-Tenor Sax, Baritone Sax and trumpet in an arrangement I fashioned. I also used the Steinway Jazz piano, acoustic bass and flute. The drums are Toontracks EZDrummer (all preset patterns). The guitar is a real guitar provided by a guitarist friend of mine. I'm not posting this to say that anybody here is either right or wrong. Just offering a real project that I've actually done with the program in question. As for my own opinion of JABB: You can get it for $80.00?! Wow! I paid $150.00 for it just 6 weeks ago (I bought it as a DL on Labor Day). This would be the second time I got screwed in this way! Back last March, I purchased Cakewalk Dimension LE with the Garritan Pocket Orchestra for $100.00. A few weeks later they had a "Special" 80% off. Had I waited three more weeks I could've gotten it for $20.00. But that's neither here nor there......... Indeed, JABB has it's faults as far as authenticity goes. I must say I am a bit disappointed with the quality of some of the brass licks in the above tune, especially where the horns harmonize. They seem to sound a bit weak in those spots, but I'm still not sorry I bought it. You can go out and buy a program called "Chris Hein Horns" for about $400.00. You can buy "Kick Ass Brass" for about the same price and they both are much better in the brass sounds, so it all comes down to the old addage "You get what you pay for". JABB does excell (IMHO, of course) in the Steinway Jazz piano and the acoustic bass (both featured on my tune). Hell, I think $80.00 for just that is worth it! Listening to the samples on Garritan's JABB page (which I was taken with initially too), I don't think they're misleading you. I think one CAN produce sounds like those, but it takes work and, as one above poster rightly observed, almost as much practice as learning to play the real thing. Something I've pondered while posting my music for review is when I encounter the "That doesn't sound like a real trumpet, flute, sax or whatever is that we, as HOME recorders, (some) have no qualms about recording our material on recorders small enough to fit into a shirt pocket (or smaller). When we as reviewers listen and review do we say "That doesn't sound like it was recorded in a professional studio"? Most don't that I've encountered, but when the dreaded MIDI word is mentioned we scrutinize the crap out of every sound and nuance to the point where we expect it to sound like the real thing. And I realize that we don't all use the small gear. Some indeed put much money and effort into much larger gear, but it's really kind of strange to encounter the "That doesn't sound like a......" from people who record on the "budget" apps or gear. The way I look at it is that I'm having fun. I know it doesn't sound real and I don't excpect it to. If I did, I'd either pay more for the more expensive programs or book a real session in a semi pro studio with real horn (or string or whatever) players. I realize some have higher aspirations than to just have fun, like I do. To those I'd say don't bother with JABB. You'd do better to put more into your demos. Thanks for letting me rant. John B. PS-Could somebody give me a link to the Randy Bowser piece? I'd like to hear it. Thanks!
post edited by voclizr - 2010/10/22 02:55:45
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ba_midi
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Re:JABB deal for Sonar
2010/10/22 02:53:02
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Hi John, Ok, I'll bite ;) Here's a TV cue I recently did -- it's only about 1 minute 50 secs. Aside from the main horn lines, there's a sax solo at about 1:15. To me this is closer to real than the JABB stuff I tried or have heard on the demos. These are not "perfect" but I'd say I got more out of these sounds than I would if I had used the JABB samples. http://www.ba-midi.com/stuff/Billy%20Arnell%20-%20Captain%20Quirk.mp3 I'm not going to be leaving it up long, so listen quick ;)
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MuseCycle Media
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Re:JABB deal for Sonar
2010/10/22 10:11:28
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I have always found MIDI orchestrations sound so much more authentic when you mix in real instruments to the MIDI instruments. I know this defeats the purpose of quick sketches done by the composer in his studio alone, but it is well worth the effort to write out a part and add a real instrument into the section. (In this way, libraries like the Garritan Jabb can work better, IMHO)
Garius Hill Artistic Director MuseCycle Media Sonar, Neumann Mikes, Gigastudio, Kontact, large sample library, Sony Z1U High Definition Cameras, Adobe Video Collection: running on 3 computers
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