• SONAR
  • Poor MIDI Implementation Is Going To Cause Me To Leave Cakewalk (p.12)
2017/01/08 13:46:41
AdamGrossmanLG
ampfixer
SBM isn't interested in any solution that involves a work around. He wants it to work the way he thinks it should work, full stop. This thread should be locked because none of our suggestions has been listened to. There have been genuine attempts to help but he simply isn't interested.




 
actually a SOLUTION isnt a workaround which interrupts workflow.  A solution is FIXING the problem.  I expect Cakewalk to lock this thread (and possibly delete it very soon anyway).

And i don't want it to work the way "I THINK" it should work.  Clever wording you put in there, to make it seem like I just want this the way I WANT IT,.... NOPE.  I want it to work the way THE MANUAL says it should!

Are you even following?  http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3542552
 
You seem to be another person who is emotionally scared someone doesn't like Cakewalk.  Shame.
2017/01/08 13:51:10
John
I wonder if you are using channels? 
2017/01/08 13:56:37
AdamGrossmanLG
John
I wonder if you are using channels? 




nope.  I have like 45 tracks, so i just keep everything on Channel 1.  shouldn't matter.

Sorry, not trying to be short, but trust me on this, its not a user error.   Its poor MIDI implementation.   Even if everything is the same channel, doesn't matter.   The input of a track shouldn't be accepting everything.   Think about how much of a mess that is.   That is just one of my many gripes though.
2017/01/08 14:03:15
John
It can if the synths also use channels. 
2017/01/08 14:18:20
AdamGrossmanLG
John
It can if the synths also use channels. 




 
Yes, but ONLY if the MIDI Input is recording OMNI when it really points to "NONE".   See:  http://forum.cakewalk.com/Is-There-Anyway-To-Disable-Enable-MIDI-Out-When-Inserting-Softsynths-m3539913.aspx#3542552
 
So now I have to remember to disable MIDI out on EVERY synth because of this.  Sometimes my MIDI keyboard is not plugged in, or for whatever reason is not set as the input, so it defaults to "NONE", which actually means "OMNI".... but due to POOR IMPLEMENTATION, "None" actually isn't NONE.
2017/01/08 14:20:10
jsg
SilverBlueMedallion
It is almost impossible for synthpop/electronic musician who wants to program complex MIDI data to drive their synths to do so using Cakewalk.
It is seriously problem after problem with this software when it comes to MIDI.   For audio, this program is top notch, for MIDI, it might be the absolute worst.   I am running into problem after problem (mostly bugs or poor implementation)  ranging from bugs with MIDI routing, synths losing their settings, the step sequencer missing crucial elements, etc...

Go play with Propellerheads Reason if you want to see TOP NOTCH MIDI implementation.  
 
Here are my threads over the past year with my frustrations:

http://forum.cakewalk.com/POSSIBLE-BUG-Selecting-A-Midi-Input-from-a-Synth-MIDI-Out-Enables-The-Virtual-Controller-m3540412.aspx
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Converting-Clip-To-Step-Sequencer-Is-Changing-Duration-Values-m3540362.aspx
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Is-There-Anyway-To-Disable-Enable-MIDI-Out-When-Inserting-Softsynths-m3539913.aspx
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/BROKENBUG-Synth-Parameters-Are-Not-Being-Retained-m3539657.aspx
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/How-To-Alternate-Panning-Per-Note-m3537382.aspx (the fact that Sonar doesn't have an easy implemention)

http://forum.cakewalk.com/MIDI-Routing-Problems-Galore-m3539322.aspx
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Step-Sequencer-Values-m3538354.aspx
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/BUG-Track-Template-Bus-Output-Randomness-m3537863.aspx
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Groove-Quantizing-Broken-m3535819.aspx (this one might be my problem)

http://forum.cakewalk.com/Step-Sequencer-Extending-A-Pattern-Can-You-Do-It-m3525206.aspx
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Sonar-Needs-Solution-For-Duplicate-Notes-Better-Than-Undupecal-m3523354.aspx
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/CC-Data-Controlling-All-Synths-Only-Want-It-Controlling-The-Active-Synth-m3523720.aspx
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Inserting-Track-Templates-Mess-Up-My-Drum-Maps-m3519693.aspx
 
 
Its just problem after problem with the MIDI implementation.   Really poor design with many flaws and bugs for which there is either no workaround or the workaround disrupts workflow.

I am currently giving Reason a proper 30-day trial run to see how it goes, but I've used it in my friend's studio before and it just simply WORKS.

I am sure I will catch heat from users on here who get emotionally worked up over a piece of software they didn't even write and/or don't have stock in... always happens.

I wish the community here would embrace all opinions and viewpoints, even ones that blatantly bash the product (if it deserves a bashing).

Thank You for listening.
 
 




There are MIDI bugs, no doubt, but I think you're overstating the case.  I've produced, so far, 13 albums, 9 symphonies, 3 concerti and many short works using Sonar.   I write large-scale works with many tracks, softsynths and I use tons of MIDI controller messages.   If Sonar's MIDI implementation is as bad as you make it out to be, I would not be able to do the work I've done.   Sometimes you simply have to understand the logic of the program and adjust to it.  Every DAW has bugs and every DAW "forces" you to work a certain way, albeit with a certain amount of flexibility.   Have you tried Digital Performer?  It's a very good DAW; yet it too has some weird features and quirks, as all software, and all people, do.  I am having no issues using controllers, softsynths, or routing using Sonar Platinum. 
 
Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com
 
 
 
2017/01/08 14:21:53
AdamGrossmanLG
jsg
SilverBlueMedallion
It is almost impossible for synthpop/electronic musician who wants to program complex MIDI data to drive their synths to do so using Cakewalk.
It is seriously problem after problem with this software when it comes to MIDI.   For audio, this program is top notch, for MIDI, it might be the absolute worst.   I am running into problem after problem (mostly bugs or poor implementation)  ranging from bugs with MIDI routing, synths losing their settings, the step sequencer missing crucial elements, etc...

Go play with Propellerheads Reason if you want to see TOP NOTCH MIDI implementation.  
 
Here are my threads over the past year with my frustrations:

http://forum.cakewalk.com/POSSIBLE-BUG-Selecting-A-Midi-Input-from-a-Synth-MIDI-Out-Enables-The-Virtual-Controller-m3540412.aspx
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Converting-Clip-To-Step-Sequencer-Is-Changing-Duration-Values-m3540362.aspx
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Is-There-Anyway-To-Disable-Enable-MIDI-Out-When-Inserting-Softsynths-m3539913.aspx
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/BROKENBUG-Synth-Parameters-Are-Not-Being-Retained-m3539657.aspx
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/How-To-Alternate-Panning-Per-Note-m3537382.aspx (the fact that Sonar doesn't have an easy implemention)

http://forum.cakewalk.com/MIDI-Routing-Problems-Galore-m3539322.aspx
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Step-Sequencer-Values-m3538354.aspx
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/BUG-Track-Template-Bus-Output-Randomness-m3537863.aspx
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Groove-Quantizing-Broken-m3535819.aspx (this one might be my problem)

http://forum.cakewalk.com/Step-Sequencer-Extending-A-Pattern-Can-You-Do-It-m3525206.aspx
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Sonar-Needs-Solution-For-Duplicate-Notes-Better-Than-Undupecal-m3523354.aspx
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/CC-Data-Controlling-All-Synths-Only-Want-It-Controlling-The-Active-Synth-m3523720.aspx
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Inserting-Track-Templates-Mess-Up-My-Drum-Maps-m3519693.aspx
 
 
Its just problem after problem with the MIDI implementation.   Really poor design with many flaws and bugs for which there is either no workaround or the workaround disrupts workflow.

I am currently giving Reason a proper 30-day trial run to see how it goes, but I've used it in my friend's studio before and it just simply WORKS.

I am sure I will catch heat from users on here who get emotionally worked up over a piece of software they didn't even write and/or don't have stock in... always happens.

I wish the community here would embrace all opinions and viewpoints, even ones that blatantly bash the product (if it deserves a bashing).

Thank You for listening.
 
 




There are MIDI bugs, no doubt, but I think you're overstating the case.  I've produced, so far, 13 albums, 9 symphonies, 3 concerti and many short works using Sonar.   I write large-scale works with many tracks, softsynths and I use tons of MIDI controller messages.   If Sonar's MIDI implementation is as bad as you make it out to be, I would not be able to do the work I've done.   Sometimes you simply have to understand the logic of the program and adjust to it.  Every DAW has bugs and every DAW "forces" you to work a certain way, albeit with a certain amount of flexibility.   Have you tried Digital Performer?  It's a very good DAW; yet it too has some weird features and quirks, as all software, and all people, do.  I am having no issues using controllers, softsynths, or routing using Sonar Platinum. 
 
Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com
 
 
 




 
that's not an argument.  

we dont necessarily work with MIDI the same way and if you read all my posts, you will see the problems I am having.   Its more than just the product forcing me to work a certain way.
2017/01/08 15:06:24
John
I'm beginning to get a handle on the problem. It is not Sonar. I don't know how long you have been working with Sonar but in the old days there was no synth rack nor VSTis. Synths were either hardware or software and DXi if software. If you worked with MIDI in those days I think you would have a very different view. The first thing you should do is enable the synth property dialog when you insert a synth in the synth rack. With it you can set up how your synth works. How many outs  for example and lots of other things including whether it should have MIDI out.  If you make a selection of the parameters you want and they will apply to all other synths you insert you only have to do this once. However, I always have this dialog show because I may change something. Its a lot easier to do that change at that time then having  to do it later.  It also gets your project setup right from the beginning.  
 
Also avoid simple instruments tracks. With them you loose a lot of control.
 
Following the above will eliminate all sorts of problems. CW has tried to make using a soft synth as easy as possible. But there are still a few things we have to set up ourselves.  
2017/01/08 15:26:41
Anderton
azslow3
SilverBlueMedallion
John
To prevent the volume on the FM8 from being lowered goto the Event List View and insert a CC7 with level you want the FM8 to play at the very beginning. If for some reason you have other CC7s in the track and don't want them delete them. Once that has been done you can have reset controllers without problems. 




and what if i am not starting playback at the very beginning?  

This is not something one should have to do.  Maybe it shouldn't be getting random CC 7 messages to begin with.

Sorry for repeating that, one more and for the last time from me:
Sonar IS NOT injecting any MIDI, and it IS NOT changing synth parameter. It is you, your equipment or your installation which does that fancy things. At least there was no single prove that is usual for other users.
 
Sonar has some inconvenient behavior with MIDI, which is the same for everyone. Just inconvenient, nothing serious.
 
Sonar has some small bugs in MIDI, confirmed by other. All of them are triggered in quite special situations only. They are not in the list of your complains.
 
Sonar does not support MIDI routing. Sonar does not really support MIDI FXes in VST format. That is in the future requests for long time, but that is not a bug. It is simple "not there yet". Using VST MIDI outputs is A WORKAROUND to somehow support VST MIDI FX. Far from perfect. Has several problems, including known and not mentioned by you.  And it is known that using this workaround is a nightmare as soon as you change MIDI devices, re-route something, etc.
Sonar also can not prepare food. It is possible to insert  tons of plug-ins and start playback, that will drive CPU to the limit, it will produce a lot of heat, so theoretically cooking something. But it is pointless to complain that does not work perfectly.
 
Sonar is DIRTY CHEAP for the value of third party software coming with it. If you sum even cheapest discount prices of AD2, Melodyne and all other included plug-ins, it is easy to prove you pay almost nothing for the DAW. It can not do EVERYTHING the way ANY PARTICULAR USER wants. There are other software packages, which provide other and sometimes better ways for particular workflows. They are also DIRTY CHEAP. Think about it other way: all your $$ spent for Sonar can at most cover ONE programmer for ONE day....

 
Azslow3, I truly appreciate that a) you know what you're talking about, and b) that you try to educate people whose minds are made up and not interested in facts. However, after my providing links showing that something SBM repeatedly calls a "bug" is a specific design decision (detailed in the Cakewalk blog concerning SONAR's VST3 implementation), and his refusal to educate himself about why that design decision was made, I have chosen to give up on him and instead, spend my time on people who benefit from the learning process rather than reject it. 
 
And I can't believe he said "and what if i am not starting playback at the very beginning? This is not something one should have to do." Well one doesn't have to, but he clearly knows so little about SONAR's basics he's not aware of "Zero controllers when play stops" and "Controller searchback before play starts," let alone when or how to use them. Yet he wants us to believe he's incapable of user error.
 
People with a solipsistic mindset who demand constant attention and play victim get tiring. Perhaps we should take up a collection and buy him any software program he wants, with the stipulation that he participate only in that program's forum. 
2017/01/08 15:30:09
AdamGrossmanLG
John
I'm beginning to get a handle on the problem. It is not Sonar. I don't know how long you have been working with Sonar but in the old days there was no synth rack nor VSTis. Synths were either hardware or software and DXi if software. If you worked with MIDI in those days I think you would have a very different view. The first thing you should do is enable the synth property dialog when you insert a synth in the synth rack. With it you can set up how your synth works. How many outs  for example and lots of other things including whether it should have MIDI out.  If you make a selection of the parameters you want and they will apply to all other synths you insert you only have to do this once. However, I always have this dialog show because I may change something. Its a lot easier to do that change at that time then having  to do it later.  It also gets your project setup right from the beginning.  
 
Also avoid simple instruments tracks. With them you loose a lot of control.
 
Following the above will eliminate all sorts of problems. CW has tried to make using a soft synth as easy as possible. But there are still a few things we have to set up ourselves.  




The whole point of the option I am pointing to below was made so you DON'T have to be asked every time you insert a softsynth.  The parameter doesn't work anyway (see my steps here:  http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3542477)
 
It DEFINATELY is Sonar.  Sonar's button:  "Enable MIDI Out" has ZERO effect!   Why is it in the product?  
 

 
 
 
Also this happens wether you use simple instrument tracks or not, so that point is moot.

The product is BROKEN!
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