pwalpwal
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Re: More crashes in the last few days than in the past 5 years!
2017/11/04 12:35:20
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what i've never understood is why sonar would be at all bothered by other installed devices/drivers, when they're not being used by sonar?
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Anderton
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Re: More crashes in the last few days than in the past 5 years!
2017/11/04 17:47:00
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The problem is they control elements of the computer that are being used by SONAR. For example, that infamous HD Audio driver decides which gets priority, streaming audio or fast frame rates. It also may assume that any audio you're generating has to be available to go to a TV or whatever. Some drivers are nice about this. Others will actually cause audio to stop streaming from a hard drive while they catch up with graphics. This is why when this type of HD Audio driver is enabled, you need to increase latency drastically to compensate. And if you don't, the system will become unstable when the audio buffer runs dry...at least that's the way it's been explained to me.
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lgmab
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Re: More crashes in the last few days than in the past 5 years!
2017/11/04 18:06:08
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Anderton
The problem is they control elements of the computer that are being used by SONAR. For example, that infamous HD Audio driver decides which gets priority, streaming audio or fast frame rates. It also may assume that any audio you're generating has to be available to go to a TV or whatever. Some drivers are nice about this. Others will actually cause audio to stop streaming from a hard drive while they catch up with graphics. This is why when this type of HD Audio driver is enabled, you need to increase latency drastically to compensate. And if you don't, the system will become unstable when the audio buffer runs dry...at least that's the way it's been explained to me.
Sonar Platinum HP Envy Laptop 16GB RAM i7-4710 Windows 10 Motu 16A Sweat and Tears with occasional profanities!
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lgmab
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Re: More crashes in the last few days than in the past 5 years!
2017/11/04 18:06:10
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Anderton
The problem is they control elements of the computer that are being used by SONAR. For example, that infamous HD Audio driver decides which gets priority, streaming audio or fast frame rates. It also may assume that any audio you're generating has to be available to go to a TV or whatever. Some drivers are nice about this. Others will actually cause audio to stop streaming from a hard drive while they catch up with graphics. This is why when this type of HD Audio driver is enabled, you need to increase latency drastically to compensate. And if you don't, the system will become unstable when the audio buffer runs dry...at least that's the way it's been explained to me.
BINGO! I think this is my problem, what is the fix? I already set my audio int buffer to 1024 which is max.
Sonar Platinum HP Envy Laptop 16GB RAM i7-4710 Windows 10 Motu 16A Sweat and Tears with occasional profanities!
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pwalpwal
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Re: More crashes in the last few days than in the past 5 years!
2017/11/04 18:29:45
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Anderton
The problem is they control elements of the computer that are being used by SONAR. For example, that infamous HD Audio driver decides which gets priority, streaming audio or fast frame rates. It also may assume that any audio you're generating has to be available to go to a TV or whatever. Some drivers are nice about this. Others will actually cause audio to stop streaming from a hard drive while they catch up with graphics. This is why when this type of HD Audio driver is enabled, you need to increase latency drastically to compensate. And if you don't, the system will become unstable when the audio buffer runs dry...at least that's the way it's been explained to me.
yeah, i understand all the various considerations, it's weird because i don't see that behaviour with other apps
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Anderton
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Re: More crashes in the last few days than in the past 5 years!
2017/11/04 19:07:20
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☄ Helpfulby Brando 2017/11/04 19:24:08
pwalpwal
yeah, i understand all the various considerations, it's weird because i don't see that behaviour with other apps
Well again this is from people who know more than I do, but cross-platform programs seem to have less issues with these kind of problems compared to Windows-specific programs, which tie in with the operating system at a deeper level. This may make sense, because Sony's Windows-only programs and Samplitude seemed touchier as well. Or it could be poltergeists.
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frankjcc
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Re: More crashes in the last few days than in the past 5 years!
2017/11/05 18:26:05
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☄ Helpfulby bobguitkillerleft 2017/11/05 23:57:22
while you're in device manager, don't forget to disable this hd audio stuff in the system devices as well.
Sonar platinum (life) Scarlett 18i20 2nd gen Intel i7 7700k 4.2ghz 16gig ram Geforce GTX 550 ti Win 10 Pro 64
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: More crashes in the last few days than in the past 5 years!
2017/11/06 13:10:59
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☄ Helpfulby pwalpwal 2017/11/06 13:20:35
pwalpwal
what i've never understood is why sonar would be at all bothered by other installed devices/drivers, when they're not being used by sonar?
The heart of any DAW is the audio "tick" or audio callback. This is the heart of the system and serves as the pump for all playback and record capabilities of the DAW. This audio callback is invoked by your audio device driver or the operating system itself if you are using Windows audio. A regular frequency of this callback is critical for stable audio playback in the DAW. Any device driver in the system that interferes with the frequency of the audio callback will starve the DAW's audio engine and cause dropouts, clicks and pops, instability or poor quality audio. Since drivers operate at the kernel level in the operating system, you can even have an unrelated driver such as a network or display interface interfere with an audio driver's clock tick. Such problems can be diagnosed using tools that monitor DPC latency such as LatencyMon. The above applies to any DAW not just SONAR. There are several reasons why you may see differences in behavior across DAW's - different driver model, different buffer size, system load differences, can all play a role in how and whether such symptoms show up.
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ClarkPlaysGuitar
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Re: More crashes in the last few days than in the past 5 years!
2017/11/06 18:00:34
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Hey Leee & all, I see this thread is now marked as "solved." I've gone through all 4 pages but didn't notice any one post marked as having "the" answer, but several marked as helpful. Leee, could you tell me if there is one particular thing that turned it around for you, or was it a combination of everything? I'm still having the odd freeze-up with buzzing sound occur, and it happens about 15 to 20% of the time when I hit "play," and about 5% of the time when I hit "record." I've implemented several of the suggestions in this thread, with no luck yet. I guess I'm being lazy and trying to avoid going through all 4 pages & trying everything suggested, lol.
Thanks!
Clark SONAR Platinum, Win10 x64, i5 quad-core, 16GB RAM, Focusrite Scarlet 18i20g2, other stuff too boring to list (cheap tube pre, mid-range mics, etc)
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frankjcc
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Re: More crashes in the last few days than in the past 5 years!
2017/11/07 02:47:01
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ClarkPlaysGuitar
Hey Leee & all, I see this thread is now marked as "solved." I've gone through all 4 pages but didn't notice any one post marked as having "the" answer, but several marked as helpful. Leee, could you tell me if there is one particular thing that turned it around for you, or was it a combination of everything? I'm still having the odd freeze-up with buzzing sound occur, and it happens about 15 to 20% of the time when I hit "play," and about 5% of the time when I hit "record." I've implemented several of the suggestions in this thread, with no luck yet. I guess I'm being lazy and trying to avoid going through all 4 pages & trying everything suggested, lol.
Thanks!
I'm pretty sure your problem is different than the stuff discussed in this thread, however, I've had the same problem as you and I'm sure it's focusrite related and more specifically the buffer settings, I haven't had this problem in a good while because I changed my buffer settings to 128, they used to be at 64. I thought my system could handle it and it really can but I suspect that focusrite has not refined the drivers yet. anyway I just went to the lowest buffer setting 16 just the check it out and yes every so often I get the buzzing but it is very high pitched at this setting, so I went to 32 and it still happens but the pitch drops, and it drops more at the 64 setting, for me I can't remember if it happened at all at the 128 setting so, what is your buffer set at?
Sonar platinum (life) Scarlett 18i20 2nd gen Intel i7 7700k 4.2ghz 16gig ram Geforce GTX 550 ti Win 10 Pro 64
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Leee
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Re: More crashes in the last few days than in the past 5 years!
2017/11/07 04:51:46
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ClarkPlaysGuitar
Hey Leee & all, I see this thread is now marked as "solved." I've gone through all 4 pages but didn't notice any one post marked as having "the" answer, but several marked as helpful. Leee, could you tell me if there is one particular thing that turned it around for you, or was it a combination of everything? I'm still having the odd freeze-up with buzzing sound occur, and it happens about 15 to 20% of the time when I hit "play," and about 5% of the time when I hit "record." I've implemented several of the suggestions in this thread, with no luck yet. I guess I'm being lazy and trying to avoid going through all 4 pages & trying everything suggested, lol.
Thanks!
The answer for me was to disable and uninstall any system based HD Audio drivers, whether they are Windows or from the manufacturer of my motherboard. Once they were uninstalled I had no further Audio Engine Stops or dropouts. The problem NOW is that since I updated the to the latest Windows 10 release, those drivers have come back. They aren't in use, but they are still listed in my Device Driver window. Someone gave me the solution to go into the BIOS to make Windows stop reinstalling these drivers. I'm going to have to go back in this thread and refresh my memory. But for now, everything is still running smoothly. As long as there are not ACTIVE HD Audio drivers running on my machine, except for the ONE that I'm using with my audio interface (Focusrite Saffire Pro 24).
Lee Shapirowww.soundclick.com/leeshapiro Welcome BandLab and thank you for giving Cakewalk and Sonar a new lease on life.
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ClarkPlaysGuitar
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Re: More crashes in the last few days than in the past 5 years!
2017/11/07 17:07:20
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Thanks, Lee! I'll dig in to my issue a little more over the next week & will add checking out system based HD audio drivers to my "to do" list. I'll post back here if I find it has any effect on my issue.
@Frankjcc, I know the symptoms are different, but I have discovered that sometimes the root cause of a problem on one system may manifest itself differently on another system. I agree it may be Focusrite related, although I ran the exact same hardware configuration most of this year with no issues. After the 2017.08 update the weird buzz/lock-up thing started, so I suspect there is maybe some update/driver compatibility thing going on. Or it could be something else, lol. I just keep trying out solutions from other problems, even if they are only vaguely similar. I'll check my buffer settings (I'm not in the studio now) later today & let you know where they're at, and maybe I'll play around with them a bit, too.
Clark SONAR Platinum, Win10 x64, i5 quad-core, 16GB RAM, Focusrite Scarlet 18i20g2, other stuff too boring to list (cheap tube pre, mid-range mics, etc)
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Cactus Music
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Re: More crashes in the last few days than in the past 5 years!
2017/11/07 17:30:36
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I think the heart of the problem is that when it comes to a PC (windows) system every system is different. We can hobble together a PC from hundreds of different parts and miraculously it will run Windows.
Possibly the heart of these systems is the BIOS.
The mention of how Windows updates re sets all the setting you made. For me this is true on my office machine but not true on my DAW machine.
I built both computers about the same time and for the office machine I used cheap components. As a result that machine is always doing stupid things, like it will turn it's self on when nobody's around? It's haunted. It also gets screwed right up after every W10 update. My DAW seems to retain all my custom settings. So this will be the quality of the BIOS and MoBo should be questioned
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frankjcc
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Re: More crashes in the last few days than in the past 5 years!
2017/11/07 17:48:36
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ClarkPlaysGuitar
Thanks, Lee! I'll dig in to my issue a little more over the next week & will add checking out system based HD audio drivers to my "to do" list. I'll post back here if I find it has any effect on my issue.
@Frankjcc, I know the symptoms are different, but I have discovered that sometimes the root cause of a problem on one system may manifest itself differently on another system. I agree it may be Focusrite related, although I ran the exact same hardware configuration most of this year with no issues. After the 2017.08 update the weird buzz/lock-up thing started, so I suspect there is maybe some update/driver compatibility thing going on. Or it could be something else, lol. I just keep trying out solutions from other problems, even if they are only vaguely similar. I'll check my buffer settings (I'm not in the studio now) later today & let you know where they're at, and maybe I'll play around with them a bit, too.
I completely understand the idea of trying other peoples fixes so that even if that's not your exact problem it should at least be an optimization or even a preventative measure. I'm giving you this advice however because I know exactly what you are talking about, I had this problem, I don't have this problem anymore, I used to have different settings that worked until one of the updates most likely the one you pointed out, I'm sure cakewalk optimized something,(or not) that gave us adverse effects, I don't gamble anymore but I betchu this is your problem. 
Sonar platinum (life) Scarlett 18i20 2nd gen Intel i7 7700k 4.2ghz 16gig ram Geforce GTX 550 ti Win 10 Pro 64
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Leee
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Re: More crashes in the last few days than in the past 5 years!
2017/11/09 00:01:12
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Now I'm having a problem switching between hearing audio coming from Sonar or any stand alone virtual instruments and with audio coming from online or a local audio file on my hard drive.
Sometimes after I'm using Sonar, I'll go to listen to something on YouTube, but there's no audio.
Likewise, sometimes when I'm streaming online audio, I'll open Sonar (or a standalone virtual instrument) and get no sound.
I can't figure out why it's doing this, but the workaround for me is to power cycle my audio interface (Focusrite, Saffire Pro 24)
Last night, after watching some YouTube videos, I closed my web browser and opened Blue3 (a virtual Hammond organ) It played fine for a few minutes, then the audio just cut off. I turned off my audio interface, turned it back on, then it started working again.
And I checked the drivers, the only audio drivers installed are the ones for the Focusrite interface.
Lee Shapirowww.soundclick.com/leeshapiro Welcome BandLab and thank you for giving Cakewalk and Sonar a new lease on life.
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azslow3
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Re: More crashes in the last few days than in the past 5 years!
2017/11/09 10:04:04
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☼ Best Answerby Leee 2017/11/10 02:48:59
Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro GA-EP35-DS3L, E7500, 4GB, GTX 1050 Ti, 2x500GB RME Babyface Pro (M-Audio Audiophile Firewire/410, VS-20), Kawai CN43, TD-11, Roland A500S, Akai MPK Mini, Keystation Pro, etc. www.azslow.com - Control Surface Integration Platform for SONAR, ReaCWP, AOSC and other accessibility tools
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pwalpwal
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Re: More crashes in the last few days than in the past 5 years!
2017/11/09 10:18:25
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BRainbow
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Re: More crashes in the last few days than in the past 5 years!
2017/11/09 10:42:44
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I love Sonar and this forum. We are really so lucky to have a great program and great people, including some of the original developers like Noel, pros like Craig and longtime users, who pitch in to educate us and help sustain the creative flow. Thanks everyone.
Cakewalk (forever), Two WIN10 64-bit DAWs: home-brew ASRock x299 Taichi / i7 7820x w/ 64GB RAM and ASUS X99A-II / i7-5820K w/ 32GB RAM, ZOOM UAC 8, Mackie ONYX 1640i FW Mixer/Interface, Mackie ONYX 1200F, Avalon U5 PreAmp, NI Komplete 11 Ultimate, EastWest Composer CloudX, Yamaha MOTIF XS8, Ensoniq SD-1 and ESQ-1, Korg M1rEX, Yamaha TX-81Z, Roland D110, Line6 HELIX Rack and Native, POD HD-Pro, POD Farm 2.5, Yamaha NS-10 and Presonus Eris E8 monitors, Yamaha Disklavier Upright Piano, mics, guitars, basses, and the cutest little tambourine.
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azslow3
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Re: More crashes in the last few days than in the past 5 years!
2017/11/09 13:49:05
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Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro GA-EP35-DS3L, E7500, 4GB, GTX 1050 Ti, 2x500GB RME Babyface Pro (M-Audio Audiophile Firewire/410, VS-20), Kawai CN43, TD-11, Roland A500S, Akai MPK Mini, Keystation Pro, etc. www.azslow.com - Control Surface Integration Platform for SONAR, ReaCWP, AOSC and other accessibility tools
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pwalpwal
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Re: More crashes in the last few days than in the past 5 years!
2017/11/09 13:57:57
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Joe_A
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Re: More crashes in the last few days than in the past 5 years!
2017/11/09 15:36:50
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Someone please add all these good tips to a list....
*Also, I do the Windows pending thing too.
jambrose@cfl.rr.com Sonar Plat. Lifetime. Started in Sonar 4, each through 8.5.3PE. Scarlett 18i202nd gen., Edirol FA-101, M-Audio Firewire 410, AMD Phenom II 1045T six core processor, 8GB DDR3, AMD Radeon HD 6450, dual displays, 1.5 TB SATA HD, USB 2, Firewire 1394A, 1394B, 18/22 mixer, EV Q-66, Yamaha HS50M monitors, few guitars, Fender Cybertwin SE, Fender Cyber foot controller, Boss RC20-XL, misc pedals, etc. Win Home Prem 64 bit.
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Leee
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Re: More crashes in the last few days than in the past 5 years!
2017/11/10 02:50:56
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azslow3
Have you tried to match Windows settings to what you use in projects?
https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-other_settings/how-to-change-sound-control-panel-settings-in/5a70718b-7ecf-4547-a64a-22efda8da0c2?auth=1
I mean if your projects are 48kHz/24bit, setting the same for Windows sounds can prevent or at least reduce glitches.
Sometimes required combination is not in the list, getting it there is hardware/driver specific.
Thanks, that was exactly the problem. Once I changed the Windows settings to match my settings in Sonar (48kHz/24bit) the problem is solved. I just had to check on the ASIO Buffer size in my Saffire control panel, which changed on it's own, and reset it back to 512, everything was fine. ------------------> Not again! -------------> EDIT: Oh Geez! My computer went into sleep mode, and when I woke it up, the problem above went back to the way it was. This time after following the directions, I went to the Playback Devices, double clicked on my Saffire Audio driver, and the ADVANCED TAB wasn't even there. I tried playing online streaming music, but again it wouldn't play. Only AFTER I opened up my web browser to try and play music, THEN the advanced tab reappeared and (it was already set to the right settings), I closed the tab and everything worked fine again. So why would rebooting or having my PC go into sleep mode cause the changes to revert back (and cause the Advanced tab to disappear?) Maybe there's a setting in the BIOS I have to change?
post edited by Leee - 2017/11/10 04:55:11
Lee Shapirowww.soundclick.com/leeshapiro Welcome BandLab and thank you for giving Cakewalk and Sonar a new lease on life.
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Leee
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Re: More crashes in the last few days than in the past 5 years!
2017/11/10 05:00:36
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Continued from previous post ^^^^ Do you think one of the options in Exclusive Mode needs to be unchecked? 
Lee Shapirowww.soundclick.com/leeshapiro Welcome BandLab and thank you for giving Cakewalk and Sonar a new lease on life.
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mettelus
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Re: More crashes in the last few days than in the past 5 years!
2017/11/10 05:01:19
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You might want to edit/append the OP to point out the solution so that folks can readily find it in the future.
ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC), i7-8700k, 16GB RAM, GTX-1070Ti, Win 10 Pro, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
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azslow3
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Re: More crashes in the last few days than in the past 5 years!
2017/11/10 11:18:49
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The problem with awaking from sleep/hibernation is bugging users since the introduction of these modes. Some hardware/driver combinations do not like to sleep. F.e. my wifes PC (old Via chipset) build-in Ethernet not only does not like sleeping, it does not like QuickBoot... You can find endless stories about problems with audio on notebooks after sleeping (with fancy variation, like "does not work after sleeping if I forgot to pull our my headset before..."). Sometimes massaging power/sleep options or downgrading/upgrading drivers helps, but most of the time people just accept they can not use sleep/hibernation/quick boot on particular system with particular OS and drivers. Note that with Firewire, not only audio interface but also the Firewire interface card can be the reason. Problems with the mode switching, which we just avoid by matching Windows settings, indicates that your Focusrite is already on "thin ice". I have the same with my old M-Audio Firewire interfaces, one step left or right and the system BSOD in m-audio driver... But if I "stay on the road", then everything is fine. Leee
Continued from previous post ^^^^
Do you think one of the options in Exclusive Mode needs to be unchecked?
No. You want some applications are able to use exclusive mode.
Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro GA-EP35-DS3L, E7500, 4GB, GTX 1050 Ti, 2x500GB RME Babyface Pro (M-Audio Audiophile Firewire/410, VS-20), Kawai CN43, TD-11, Roland A500S, Akai MPK Mini, Keystation Pro, etc. www.azslow.com - Control Surface Integration Platform for SONAR, ReaCWP, AOSC and other accessibility tools
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lgmab
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Re: More crashes in the last few days than in the past 5 years!
2017/11/10 17:05:43
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I am STILL having terrible issues! After much research, it seems that there "may" be an issue with latest win updates. Not sure if they are however.
It is extrememly frustrating and heartbreaking, not being able to work.
I am hoping that the Cakewalk people in the know, can shed some light on what can be done.
Sonar Platinum HP Envy Laptop 16GB RAM i7-4710 Windows 10 Motu 16A Sweat and Tears with occasional profanities!
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lgmab
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Re: More crashes in the last few days than in the past 5 years!
2017/11/10 17:14:15
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Hello Noel, thank you for the info above. I did run Latency MOn and do see that there are two drivers with consistently high DPC Count. What do you suggest can be done. How should we evaluate and'/or treat this info.
Thank you.
Sonar Platinum HP Envy Laptop 16GB RAM i7-4710 Windows 10 Motu 16A Sweat and Tears with occasional profanities!
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azslow3
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Re: More crashes in the last few days than in the past 5 years!
2017/11/10 17:39:02
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lgmab
Hello Noel, thank you for the info above. I did run Latency MOn and do see that there are two drivers with consistently high DPC Count. What do you suggest can be done. How should we evaluate and'/or treat this info.
Thank you.
It can help in case you add how "high" DPC Count is and which drivers are mentioned. Just in case... have you checked that you are working under Performance Power Plan? I mean your CPU is constantly on full frequency? Windows updates have a bad habit to reset some settings to defaults, probably driven by idea most users do not know what they are doing during settings customization 
Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro GA-EP35-DS3L, E7500, 4GB, GTX 1050 Ti, 2x500GB RME Babyface Pro (M-Audio Audiophile Firewire/410, VS-20), Kawai CN43, TD-11, Roland A500S, Akai MPK Mini, Keystation Pro, etc. www.azslow.com - Control Surface Integration Platform for SONAR, ReaCWP, AOSC and other accessibility tools
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Hatstand
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Re: More crashes in the last few days than in the past 5 years!
2017/11/10 17:46:43
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I always find there are two areas to check after any Windows 10 update, the first means going into device manager and checking that the on-board sound card hasn't been re-enabled, the second is to check that the update hasn't set my power plan back to default rather than my customised high performance power plan where the cpu never sleeps.
There is plenty of advice on the web on how to set up power plans.
It is also worth mentioning that some motherboard manufacturers include power saving options as part of the BIOS such as ASUS Cool and Quiet setting applied on the advanced cpu options page.
The other thing which was alluded to earlier is to stick to a sample rate/bit depth setting in Sonar and mirror that with your windows audio driver playback settings (advanced tab) for your audio device (they normally come with both an ASIO and WDM driver). That way if you switch between Sonar (using ASIO) and say audio streaming (using WDM), there won't be any hiccups. I also uncheck exclusive mode in the windows audio settings. I also have Sonarworks systemwide so I make sure that mirrors my Sonar settings as well.
Sonar Platinum - Windows 10 Pro 64bit - AMD FX 8150 processor - 16Gb RAM - 27" Monitor (it's not the size that counts, it's what you do with it)
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lgmab
Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
- Total Posts : 93
- Joined: 2015/07/06 14:24:02
- Location: Canada
- Status: offline
Re: More crashes in the last few days than in the past 5 years!
2017/11/17 03:09:12
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Guys...I am so dispirited. I tried everything except reinstall of OS and or a clean install of Sonar. I imagine that an OS reinstall will be a pain. Has anyone else tried that route?
Sonar Platinum HP Envy Laptop 16GB RAM i7-4710 Windows 10 Motu 16A Sweat and Tears with occasional profanities!
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