It's not getting killed by 'bad' guys I'm most afraid of. It's getting killed my 'good' guys having a 'bad' day.

Sven

AndyW

Grrr...I hate this forum softwares formatting...I tried to fix the quotes and only made it worse....I give up!

 
Holy shmolies... and that was your edited response? Geez man, that's like strike 4 or 5 or something...
 
But to go back to what you were quoting above that:

In a self-defense situation, it is only when the aggressor uses or attempts to use deadly force that you have the right to respond with deadly force

This is what I was referring to above (but I'll certainly defer to others on the particulars, as I'm not a lawyer nor a law enforcement officer or agent, nor do I play one on TV)... Basically, if somebody is in your house brandishing a crowbar or let's say a knife, and s/he ends up dead with a bullet in their back with no real signs of a struggle, etc., then you would likely be in some serious trouble (I think). Point is: just because somebody is in your house, you don't want them there, and even if you feel threatened, it's not necessarily automatic that you have a free pass to just start emptying clips around your house in the name of self-defense.  
 
 
 
 

Here are gun-related deaths per 100,000 people in the world's 36 richest countries in 1994: United States 14.24; Brazil 12.95; Mexico 12.69; Estonia 12.26; Argentina 8.93; Northern Ireland 6.63; Finland 6.46; Switzerland 5.31; France 5.15; Canada 4.31; Norway 3.82; Austria 3.70; Portugal 3.20; Israel 2.91; Belgium 2.90; Australia 2.65; Slovenia 2.60; Italy 2.44; New Zealand 2.38; Denmark 2.09; Sweden 1.92; Kuwait 1.84; Greece 1.29; Germany 1.24; Hungary 1.11; Republic of Ireland 0.97; Spain 0.78; Netherlands 0.70; Scotland 0.54; England and Wales 0.41; Taiwan 0.37; Singapore 0.21; Mauritius 0.19; Hong Kong 0.14; South Korea 0.12; Japan 0.05.

interesting how the baltic states are so high.
   

AndyW

SvenArne


I live in a town where guys are likely to go out at night, get drunk and then aggrivated to the point where they start physically hurting others. Occasionally someone gets beaten to death. If we were to throw a few guns into the picture I would expect things to get uglier.

I've been in a few situations in my life where I expect I'd get done in had my adversary carried a gun. Heck, I've even been in one or two situations where I might have killed someone had I had a gun.
 
Bad people exist, regardless of whether guns are there are not. 
Regardless of what statistics might say, I don't want to live in a society where I must trust each and every person I encounter to be responsible enough not to shoot me in the face.

Sven

You are self-deluded because you already exist in a society where what you state is true(we all do!).  According to the stats there are a lot of privately owned firearms in Norway.
 
Again, I am not commenting here to pit country against country.  I don't think Norway should be the US(or the UK or whoever), I am just wanting logic to remain the center of  the discussion.  It's fine for us all to like our countries(or not) and like our countries laws(or not).  I just think the perception of the US as the Wild West(the inner cities of our largest cities being the exception ..which ironically, is where the most restrictive gun laws are)

Hey, I didn't say that (bold characters) in the post you quoted! Where did that come from and why would you put it in there?
 
Anyhow, while it is true that there are a lot of firearms in people's houses here in Norway, taking them outside for anything other than hunting or target practice (at a regulated range) is completely unheard of, and very much illegal. Even the police don't have guns on them. I like it that way, all warm and fuzzy and ungunlike! 
Sven

SvenArne
 
Hey, I didn't say that (bold characters) in the post you quoted! Where did that come from and why would you put it in there?

Try to ignore AndyW's continued failed attempts at quoting posts. He obviously doesn't "get it".
 

Jonbouy




The worst case scenario here is an opportunist 'punk' is very likely not to be carrying a gun so it's highly unlikely you'd need to pack one, sure an escalation may end up with a few stitches in the hospital much less likely the mortuary.

Actually in this day and age it is just as likely to run into a punk kid packing heat. Usually some piece of junk that is likely to get off a couple of rounds before it jams or banana peals. Sorry to contradict Jon but it has become a real issue here. And outlawing guns will not deter gun crime. It's been tried here and it won't work for a lot of reasons.

Herb, I just went through my CCW refresher and here in this state it is a stand your ground state (Idaho) but the 23 foot rule applies. Meaning if threatened you have to give ample warning to the assailant and if they violate 23 foot safety zone around you, you are deemed to be in a state of personal threat.

I don't know that I would have gotten as close as you did but I would have put my two cents worth in. Something along the lines of the cops are on their way. But then again out here they have free ride in a police car signs posted at most stores for shop lifters.


Sven, I felt more safe in Scandinavia going from bar to bar than I do in some cities in the US. You guys know how to treat a tourist/visitor well. I've always a had a good time when visiting and have yet to see a fight when I get over there.

Lots of good comments here. In the US, in states that allow law abiding citizens to carry concealed, the crime rates fall.... where guns are banned..... (Washington DC, NYC, LA, Chicago, etc...) the crime rates are through the roof. hummmm.... I wonder if there's a connection...yup..... sure is!  Where the people are disarmed, the criminals have free reign. In England where guns are pretty much banned..... knife crime and other weapons have taken the place of "gun crime". 

If you want to see what the world would look like with no guns in the hands of law abiding citizens..... look at Germany...... it's also interesting that with all his war machines, Hitler never went invaded  Switzerland..... it seems every citizen in the country had and knew how to use their guns.....

I (would/do) feel safer in a place with hundreds of people carrying concealed than in the "gun free zones" of schools, courthouses, state parks, and places that serve alcohol. The only people carrying guns in those places are the bad guys. I feel naked when I have to go there....

In the event I told about in the OP.... the punk did not threaten us with a weapon....his verbal abuse was not intimidating to me, nor did it constitute a threat to me. Had he pulled a knife...he would have flashed it around, trying to scare us.... then the dynamics of the situation would have changed. 

In NC, you can use deadly force to save your life or a third party from death or serious harm.....a knife pulled for intended use in a crime qualifies under both conditions. I don't have space or time to go into all the details as to when and under what conditions DF can be used..... my suggestion...take a CC course even if you do not intend to carry. It's a good education....these laws apply to LE also.

In many states including NC, OPEN carry is allowed without a permit, as long as you are not a convicted felon. The permit is only needed to carry it concealed. I use both carry options depending where I am. I know that many people are uncomfortable around someone carrying a handgun..... so to avoid upsetting the "sheep" I will keep it concealed. If there was any doubt in my mind that I "needed" to carry my weapon with me..... this incident confirmed that I do need to carry it.

Each of us must decide for ourselves if we are going to carry a means to protect ourselves, our loved ones, and even the strangers around us if a predator decides to prey on us......or will we accept or place as sheep before the wolf, and hope beyond hope that the police will show up in time to save us. Unfortunately, these things happen fast, and there is not time to call and wait on the law.

If you want a good read, and a good perspective on this and other interesting topics...get Ted Nugent's Book "God, Guns, and Rock & Roll"   (I think that's the title...) 

My definition of "Gun Control" is being able to hit your target consistently...even if it's moving.

Every day in this country..millions of legally owned guns kill no one.  And thousands of people use guns to defend themselves without dialing 911...and never have to fire a single shot.... just the sight of a gun changes the mind of most predators.

EDIT: ANY use of a gun is covered by laws that will be enforced.

Simply carrying a handgun, and pulling your jacket back to reveal it to a criminal and putting you hand on it, is not covered by law as far as I know...as long as you have a CCP.

If you remove it from it's holster and have it in your hand it can be considered "brandishing a weapon" depending on the circumstances.

Pointing it at a person is a violation of law...unless it is for the purpose of self defense.... and you must be willing, ready and able to destroy whatever you point it at.

In all cases where a gun is needed...even if it is not fired..... the police should be called to file an attempted crime report and give the punk's description to LE.

Jonbouy

bdickens


No. It is neither disturbing nor unusual. Actually quite common in the free world.

Now that I do find disturbing!

Verbal abuse, a cap in the skull, sounds like a fair exchange.....NOT!

Herb did the right thing in my book and let it play out and showing unity and support to the store owner and respecting his request to drop it afterward.

The worst case scenario here is an opportunist 'punk' is very likely not to be carrying a gun so it's highly unlikely you'd need to pack one, sure an escalation may end up with a few stitches in the hospital much less likely the mortuary.

Of course there will be exceptions but I like the idea of not holstering up in the morning because the likely hood is you ain't going to come across somebody else who has.

Long may that continue, because at the thought that it was likely a 'punk' shoplifing was armed then I'd have to consider adding a new belt to my wardrobe.

btw You can legally own a gun here but along with just wanting one you have to have a purpose, a sanctioned place to use it beforehand and a suitable firearm for your intended purpose and it's really unlikely you'd get a licence if you've done anything more steal a candy bar previously. A hand-gun under your jacket though, forget about it.

Some of us don't even bother with a gun.

I was extremely happy to have had a gun last winter.
I had been out of work for 4 months and the cash was about gone.
Sold that sucker for $20 (to a pawn shop), which bought 2 weeks worth of Ramin noodles.

Just a couple of weeks ago a man shot and killed an unarmed intruder in a suburb here in Madison. http://www.channel3000.com/news/20949183/detail.html
No charges were ever filed. I was kind of surprised, it's like they pretty much made a judgement call on the spot. In the city, the DA would have investigated it for awhile at least. But nope, they just said it's all good. No harm no foul. Just a thug.

Now, it was a "nice" subdivision, and the intruder had a criminal record. So, everyone's happy, one less thug on the streets. But he wasn't even armed, so that really doesn't even make it justifiable. Maybe times are changing, and people are sick of it or something.

 
 
SvenArne


It's not getting killed by 'bad' guys I'm most afraid of. It's getting killed my 'good' guys having a 'bad' day.

Sven

It saddens me to see people who are afraid of inanimate objects.
 
The facts are that good guys don't go off and kill someone just because they have a "bad day."
 
The whole notion that everybody is basically good and violent criminals are just like ordinary people but they had a "bad day" one day and did something regrettable is a dangerous lie.  Violent criminals do not think the same way we do. They have little or no empathy, they have little or no compassion and they have little or no concept of consequences for their actions. They also tend to have an entitlement mentality and think they are "owed" something. 
 
The idea that people "just snap" is a fabrication. People who go on killing sprees, murder their spouses and the like always - always -  display specific, predictable behaiviors long beforehand that can serve as a roadmap to where their lives are headed if those around them would just pay attention. Gavin DeBecker discusses these precursors to violence in  The Gift of Fear.
 
 
If you've "been in a few situations in my life where I expect I'd get done in had my adversary carried a gun" then you need to seriously rethink your lifestyle and how you relate to people. Maybe that is why you and those with your same attitude are so afraid that a law-abiding citizen who just happens to be carrying a lawful defensive sidearm will haul off and shoot you over an upraised finger or something. Because you would. You have so little self-control and handle conflict so poorly that violence follows you like a shadow. Not necessarily physical violence, but certainly emotional and verbal violence.
 
You really should follow the link to the Texas CHL Forum I provided earlier and lurk around a bit. You would be surprised at how level-headed that crowd is and reluctant to use violence.
 
People who lawfully carry a defensive sidearm are more likely to deal with others politely and to seek peaceful resolution to conflict because they know where it can end up. Normal people have an extremeny strong visceral aversion to killing another human being. When you start to carry, all of those little things that would otherwise have you cussing at other people, giving them the finger, questioning their ancestry, none of them matter any more. All those rude things you used do that are liable to start a fight you stop doing  because you don't want to ever have to end one over what - because that was your parking space?

Bdickens, what scares the dickens out of me really, is anybody that has guns in the same home that they have children.

Children get into things, that's what they do. And you read about all the kids that find their daddy's gun and shoot their brother, sister, friend or themselves. Just because their dumbass gun carrying dad thinks he is"protecting" his family. 

Yes, I know that rarely happens, but so does the opportunity to even use a gun in self-defense. So, I think anyone carrying a gun, really, is just asking to get shot themselves.

NO GUNS!! NO WAR!! PEACE!!!

mgh


Here are gun-related deaths per 100,000 people in the world's 36 richest countries in 1994: United States 14.24; Brazil 12.95; Mexico 12.69; Estonia 12.26; Argentina 8.93; Northern Ireland 6.63; Finland 6.46; Switzerland 5.31; France 5.15; Canada 4.31; Norway 3.82; Austria 3.70; Portugal 3.20; Israel 2.91; Belgium 2.90; Australia 2.65; Slovenia 2.60; Italy 2.44; New Zealand 2.38; Denmark 2.09; Sweden 1.92; Kuwait 1.84; Greece 1.29; Germany 1.24; Hungary 1.11; Republic of Ireland 0.97; Spain 0.78; Netherlands 0.70; Scotland 0.54; England and Wales 0.41; Taiwan 0.37; Singapore 0.21; Mauritius 0.19; Hong Kong 0.14; South Korea 0.12; Japan 0.05.

interesting how the baltic states are so high.

  

"gun-related deaths" is a somewhat mis-leading statistic...do you count cops or good samaritans killing bad guys as part of this number?  That doesn't seem right.  In any case, despite the age of the data I accept that gun deaths are higher in the US.  Freedom comes at a cost to society.  The former USSR had very low "gun related death" stats for crime.  Should we model their political system?  (And no I am not comparing Norway to the USSR...just making a point)

keith

SvenArne
 
Hey, I didn't say that (bold characters) in the post you quoted! Where did that come from and why would you put it in there?

Try to ignore AndyW's continued failed attempts at quoting posts. He obviously doesn't "get it".
 

kieth...you don't have to be insulting.  If you think this particular forum software is easy to use then you are in the minority.  I have used many forums and this one is the hardest to post and track posts in that I use.

AndyW

kieth...you don't have to be insulting.  If you think this particular forum software is easy to use then you are in the minority.  I have used many forums and this one is the hardest to post and track posts in that I use.

I'm just pokin' ya with a stick.... I don't like the forum software either, but I was chuckling a bit at your struggling with it... cuz I know how painful it can be. No insult intended.