It's not strange... I'm just saying that if one was even thinking about their gun in that scenario the were a few steps ahead of where their thoughts should be. I explained the reality of the situation already. The manager should have called the cops and avoided a confrontation at all costs. Helping the manager complete the confrontation requires rationalizing that the situation was beyond control.

That's all I'm saying, but I also admit that I would have had the same urge to confront the punk... but that doesn't make it the right thing to do.

Let him steal, call the cops, have him searched in the parking lot, and process the punk. That's the protocol.

Have I told you the story about the shoplifters at one of the bike shops? We chased them out to the parking lot... I jumped on the hood as they pulled out... we told them to stop... but they didn't... so I popped the windshield with a big 18" adjustable wrench. That stopped em.

You know what... there's no excuse for behavior like that.

I had to tell the cops the whole truth. :-)

The best justice... it was their grandma's car... she took them home by the ear. :-)

We can agree to disagree maybe?

All the anti-gun milqetoasts

As happens quite often, particularly on this forum, because someone holds a view they get called a name by somebody with a different one.

I'm not even sure I'm 'anti-gun' (I used to own some nice shotguns) per se, I'm just glad none of those issues prevail here in the normal course of a day.

Really glad.

Practice & trigger control = Small groups.... Center target......

True gun nuts...we need more of them.... the guy with a range down the road 4 miles away.... and the poachers, well they are not representative of the law abiding, safety minded people that I know and am proud to call "my gun nut friends". 

Carrying a handgun is a huge responsibility. It is a patriotic duty. It is not to be entered into lightly or with little thought and reflection. Pulling the trigger on a human being has dire consequences for BOTH parties involved, and is a total 100% LAST RESORT to SAVE A LIFE.

Shoplifting is not a life & death event. Standing up for the manager was the very least I could do....how could I rationalize standing by and watching a punk beat up a man far to old to defend against a young violent punk? I simply could not. My thoughts were on the situation, I was alert for accomplises (there were none) and the situation was resolved without damage to anyone. Sure.... the punk got away with what he stole....and would I like to have seen the law roll up and cuff him...YES!.... but that's not the way it went down.

During this event, I knew I had the Taurus on my hip..... I did not have the "itching desire" to pull it out.... it was there as a LAST RESORT not a first responder.

I hope that no one in this forum has to experience a confrontation like this, (or worse) but I also hope that if you do, you are prepared, ready, willing, and able to step up, help out, and do the right thing.

Jonbouy

20 shots fired by real men... none landed on a target.

The guys would have been better off using the pool cues.

Amateurs.

Exactly,

Also there is something refreshingly 'Darwinian' about having to get in close enough to lump somebody squarely on the chin, whereas any sissy hiding their true weakness behind some hardware can pull a trigger, thereby even natural selection gets skewed.

LOL - Arise Sir JonBouy Dawkins
 
 

Jonbouy


OI! OI!

Less ' ave some order in 'ere!!!...

Don't start on me mate - and did you spill my pint?
 
I'd offer you outside but as I'm packing heat* there's no need...
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
  
  
 
 
  
 
(Sorry Shad)
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
* Anti-arthritic 145 x 145 pixel pile-soothing thermal undershreddies
 
One whiff is enough to break up any trouble
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Hacker, I'd be proud to have you as a gun buddy... I hope I haven't gone to far in expressing MY personal opinion.

I have one more "barbed" comment:

"Carrying a handgun is a huge responsibility. It is a patriotic duty."

Go get yourself a real USA handgun, and then get back to me about the patriotic stuff.

The only "foreign" guns I'll shoot came home with Dad (legally of course) and are now antique family heirlooms.

:-)

You had to see that coming.

all the best,
mike

Also, I haven't forgotten that you continually train for hand to hand... that never escaped my mind while reading your story and wondering which of your pistols you were packing and why you didn't just swat the punk with a monkey fist or something.

Oh and one last thing... those poachers I spoke of are bona fide modern day pirates... not even the LE goes in the forest to mess with 'em. Not enough resources to do the job safely.

Go get yourself a real USA handgun,


Ouch.... yeah Taurus is an import.... but it is accurate, reliable, small, fairly high capacity, and affordable.

I hear you on the poachers issue.... there is a difference between somebody hunting out of season...maybe a few days early, and a professional poacher. It reminds me of the song Amos Moses.... talking about the sheriff going in the swamp looking Amos..... and he never come out again...wonder what happened to the Louisana Sheriff?

Yes I do train hand to hand... again.... if I had made the first move the punk would have had a case on me of assult...(kind of like a burglar that breaks into your home, falls down the steps and sues you..and wins) ...... so I was waiting..... if he made the first move against either me or the manager.... then I could have blocked and cleaned his clock..... As it was...he was...as most punks are, a coward. Once he saw that it was 2 to 1 and I was standing up to him with the manager...he tucked tail and left...trying to put on a brave face all the way out the door..... it was put up or shut up and he chose to turn tail and run.

edit to add: after all... in martial arts training, the whole goal is to avoid having to use your training.

"Best to win fight by not fighting."

I won.

.

I love a polite society.

I think you won as well!

best,
mike

Guitarhacker 

Yes I do train hand to hand... again.... if I had made the first move the punk would have had a case on me of assult...(kind of like a burglar that breaks into your home, falls down the steps and sues you..and wins) ...... so I was waiting..... if he made the first move against either me or the manager.... then I could have blocked and cleaned his clock..... As it was...he was...as most punks are, a coward. Once he saw that it was 2 to 1 and I was standing up to him with the manager...he tucked tail and left...trying to put on a brave face all the way out the door..... it was put up or shut up and he chose to turn tail and run.

This just confuses me more (it doesn't take much).
 
How can a legal gun carrying citizen, albeit upstanding and honest, make the split decisions needed as whether to engage in fisticuffs, draw your weapon or talk?  You've only got to get it wrong once, especially if the other guy is carrying too.
 
Surely these are the exact same skills we can really only expect from highly trained police officers? I suppose the big difference is that they are permitted to draw their weapon immediately in any situation.
 
And what if you choose to use physical restraint but for all your unarmed combat training the 'punk' gets a lucky punch in and floors you... and then helps himself to your gun?
 
Now he's in charge.
 
I know it's difficult for those of us who live in a country where mass gun ownership isn't allowed by law to understand how another culture goes about its business, but in the example you give Herb there's only one likely scenario where someone ends up dead - if one or more of the three characters is carrying a gun.
 
Still, from what you said, the way you handled the situation was highly commendable.
 
 
Steve
 
 
 

SteveStrummerUK

Guitarhacker 

Yes I do train hand to hand... again.... if I had made the first move the punk would have had a case on me of assult...(kind of like a burglar that breaks into your home, falls down the steps and sues you..and wins) ...... so I was waiting..... if he made the first move against either me or the manager.... then I could have blocked and cleaned his clock..... As it was...he was...as most punks are, a coward. Once he saw that it was 2 to 1 and I was standing up to him with the manager...he tucked tail and left...trying to put on a brave face all the way out the door..... it was put up or shut up and he chose to turn tail and run.

This just confuses me more (it doesn't take much).
 
How can a legal gun carrying citizen, albeit upstanding and honest, make the split decisions needed as whether to engage in fisticuffs, draw your weapon or talk?  You've only got to get it wrong once, especially if the other guy is carrying too.
 
Surely these are the exact same skills we can really only expect from highly trained police officers? I suppose the big difference is that they are permitted to draw their weapon immediately in any situation.
 
And what if you choose to use physical restraint but for all your unarmed combat training the 'punk' gets a lucky punch in and floors you... and then helps himself to your gun?
 
Now he's in charge.
 
I know it's difficult for those of us who live in a country where mass gun ownership isn't allowed by law to understand how another culture goes about its business, but in the example you give Herb there's only one likely scenario where someone ends up dead - if one or more of the three characters is carrying a gun.
 
Still, from what you said, the way you handled the situation was highly commendable.
 
 
Steve
 
 
 

By training.  You aren't just issued a permit to carry.  You have to take classes and training.  You never exert more force than is required for a situation.  Lethal force is only used as a last, final resort when imminant peril is likely.

It isn't for eveyone.  If you feel that responsibility is too much for you to handle or be able to make that descision, then you should NOT carry a weapon.

Guns do not "go off."

I have a duty to the rest of us lined up in the chip shop whenever I see the student pull out his pen and cheque book, I will defend my fellows to the last man in order that he can obtain his Friday night nose-bag without some namby called Gavin wearing his grandads old coat causing the utmost inconvenience....hic,

Julie did ya want a whalley with that? It's ok i'm flush tonite 'ave what you want love.

My 9mm was secured in a holster and firmly attached to my belt...then hidden under the light jacket I was wearing for the expressed purpose of concealing the 9mm. Neither the manager nor the punk knew I was armed....and neither found out. 

My art of choice is Jujitsu. It is close in and personal. Reviewing this encounter, I might consider switching my carry position. I now alternate between right hip.... convenient, and easily concealed.....however, it could be in the way in a hand to hand encounter..... and middle of the back. also very concealed, but a but harder to retrieve from.

I have toyed with the thought of left front inside the belt. This would be a better location for hand to hand combat, since it is hidden, easy to pull from, easily defended, and still concealed.

I have seen arguments that you should carry "loaded in the pipe" safety on.... like the police do. I however have chosen to carry loaded mag...empty pipe, safety on. So I need to unsafety, and rack the slide. It takes longer, but is safer to carry that way. Some say the time is critical and you should always be locked and loaded..... IDK... I figure I have the half second needed to rack it.

BTW: The police account for more unintentional and negligent discharges that civilians. I spoke with a police firearms training instructor a while back. He made mention that he never wears a bulletproof vest when training civilians at a range, but ALWAYS wears his vest when working with LEO's.

To those who carry....what is your favorite position to carry and why?

By training... I was referring to martial arts training into the black belt ranks and teaching others for a number of years. Quite a few useful techniques were learned over those many years. I would train and train with other black belt artists (many in law enforcement) who knew how to handle themselves in a fight. I learned how to avoid being kicked and punched, and how to lessen the impact when I did get hit.

I remember one time in particular when I was sparring with a  black belt, who was in the fighting circuit trying to win and make money.... this guy was pretty good. As long as you fought on his terms...at his distance, life was good for him.... He threw a round house kick ... and instead of doing like most.... backing up to avoid it, I stepped in to catch it.... he was totally taken off guard...and down to the mat.  Of course that is not "legal" in karate dojo's so the Sensei called for us to stop. ( I was visiting my brother's dojo as a guest...the teacher there really didn't like jujitsu...claimed it "hurt to much" .... ummmm yeah...that's the point! )He didn't really know to much about fighting in close since his mental process was" knock them out at 5 feet". The 3 foot difference meant the kick had no effect and no power on me.

Training with guns..... I've been a hunter since 14, and a shooter way before then. Stopped hunting but I continue to shoot..... targets, skeet, and all round general plinking. I can shoot my air rifle in the back yard and no one knows.

Ian asked about superior firepower..... OK...I wasn't there in Switzerland in the 40's.... but lets come up a few years to Vietnam..... the average GI in Vietnam fired 50,000 rounds of ammo for one documented kill..... the average sniper in Vietnam during the same time fired 3 shots per kill. 
So a German brigade is coming into a town.... even with a small town of a couple thousand..... the Germans are severely outnumbered.... now if the Swiss farmers and merchants who know how to shoot a deer at 300 yards, to feed their family, apply the same skill level to defending their homes and loved ones.... and why wouldn't they...... the Swiss would have superior firepower through better shooting and greater numbers.

A small group of frontiersmen with muskets and hunting skills turned back the British army who BTW.... had the settlers vastly outnumbered.... but the skills used by the settlers, aiming and gorilla tactics won the day, and eventually the war and our freedom.

NC the class is a full day. Classroom discussion, video's, a test, and then off to the range to shoot 50 rounds minimum. The instructor is to access the student's ability, not just knowledge. And make a judgment call... you are not guaranteed to pass the class and be issued a certificate.

Then the sheriff gets 90 days to run all sorts of background and criminal checks on you....again no guarantees...




how did you stop a vehicle accelerating at you with a camp hammer?


Just a guess.... throw it and run?  Hope it hits the windshield and spiders it so bad the driver can't see and runs into a tree.

I had a talk with the boys. I assumed they would not really run me and girl friend over. It was the same lights and revving the motor bull hockey. Once we were face to face I made it obvious that I was going to defend with vigor if forced too.

It's my feeling that if I had suggested that we have a gun fight that I would have lost. Instead I made it seem more intimate and personal and we reached a detente by talking.

I have another story about camping on the Suwanee River during a 13 day canoe trip. The locals roll up and one of them tells me... it's gonna rain right there where you put your tent. ;-) Then they partied loud and hard all night long. :-( They seemed to like wrasseling and making each other "give" when they were about to drown each other in the river after rolling down the bank.

The best choice we had was to make friends.

I have a great memory of being "mugged" on the A train in Brooklyn. Three thugs strolled into our car while it was rolling. EVERYONE but I scrambled to the next car. The 3 guys surround me and size me up and then one said "you're not from around here". I smiled and said "I'm from Florida". We ended up talking about life and stuff... but they never knew If/when I was going to take my hand out of my jacket pocket :-). I just kept it in there at guard, and I never stopped smiling.

I was sitting on a park bench in Centennial Park in Atlanta a few years ago. This local guys sits down and immediately gets belligerent... telling me and my wife that this bench is his home. The guy was out there and for real. I scowled at him with my best Irish punk scowl and he says "Where are you from?". I growl "I'm from Brooklyn" (that's where my parents and extended family is from... I'm actually from Miami). The guys gets up, says "sorry" and moves on.

I just don't think guns are a great solution to living out in the real world... they are a last resort.

Just random memories.

best,
mike