Helpful ReplyNo new features - just fixes please

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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: No new features - just fixes please 2016/02/12 07:08:01 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby charlyg 2016/02/12 10:36:48
To adopt a "No new features - just fixes please" strategy begs the question, what would the devs be doing for the other 9 months of the year?
 
A balanced mix please, of fixes, enhancements & new features, just like it's always been.

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#61
irvin
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Re: No new features - just fixes please 2016/02/12 08:05:35 (permalink)
I personally would prefer a "no more 'content', only bug fixes and new features (in that order)" approach. I don't need 7000 useless guitar loops - I need 'pre-roll recording'. Virtually every other DAW has had it for years and it's a great time-saver and workflow (that's why all major DAWS chose to implement it).
#62
kzmaier
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Re: No new features - just fixes please 2016/02/12 08:14:02 (permalink)
I like new features and what-not.  You never know what can inspire a new song or idea.  Just my 2 cents.

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Ken
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#63
dcumpian
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Re: No new features - just fixes please 2016/02/12 08:21:04 (permalink)
I'd like to see new features, bug fixes, PLUS focused enhancements where every major feature, menu and dialog box is examined for usability, consistency in design and function, plus any inevitable fixes that might come from process of asking "is this working as intended".
 
Sonar's MIDI handling is pretty darn good, though I agree that Cubase has probably jumped ahead in that department a bit, but then you'd have to use Cubase . With the latest enhancements, like patch points, Sonar's audio is as good as any other DAW.
 
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Dan

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#64
FCCfirstclass
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Re: No new features - just fixes please 2016/02/12 09:21:52 (permalink)
I would hope that ACT and MIDI are on the list for improvement.  IMO, the bakers are doing a fantastic job.

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Anderton
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Re: No new features - just fixes please 2016/02/12 09:58:56 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby charlyg 2016/02/12 10:37:56
irvin
I personally would prefer a "no more 'content', only bug fixes and new features (in that order)" approach. I don't need 7000 useless guitar loops - I need 'pre-roll recording'. Virtually every other DAW has had it for years and it's a great time-saver and workflow (that's why all major DAWS chose to implement it).


Content is done by third parties or people at Cakewalk who aren't involved in engineering, so it has zero impact on development.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#66
irvin
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Re: No new features - just fixes please 2016/02/12 10:13:05 (permalink)
Anderton
irvin
I personally would prefer a "no more 'content', only bug fixes and new features (in that order)" approach. I don't need 7000 useless guitar loops - I need 'pre-roll recording'. Virtually every other DAW has had it for years and it's a great time-saver and workflow (that's why all major DAWS chose to implement it).


Content is done by third parties or people at Cakewalk who aren't involved in engineering, so it has zero impact on development.




It does - because whatever resources are allocated to obtaining and providing this "content" (in the form of employee salary, outright purchase from third parties, etc.) could be allocated to engineering. Bug fixes and mainstream features ('mainstream' meaning features common to other major DAWs, like pre-roll recording) are far more useful than 'content' of dubious value.
 
Unless, of course, the "content" is so generic and useless, Cakewalk is paying pennies for it. 
#67
Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: No new features - just fixes please 2016/02/12 10:14:39 (permalink)
irvin
Anderton
irvin
I personally would prefer a "no more 'content', only bug fixes and new features (in that order)" approach. I don't need 7000 useless guitar loops - I need 'pre-roll recording'. Virtually every other DAW has had it for years and it's a great time-saver and workflow (that's why all major DAWS chose to implement it).


Content is done by third parties or people at Cakewalk who aren't involved in engineering, so it has zero impact on development.




It does - because whatever resources are allocated to obtaining and providing this "content" (in the form of employee salary, outright purchase from third parties, etc.) could be allocated to engineering. Bug fixes and mainstream features ('mainstream' meaning features common to other major DAWs, like pre-roll recording) are far more useful than 'content' of dubious value.


In your opinion.
 
Others may disagree.

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#68
irvin
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Re: No new features - just fixes please 2016/02/12 10:16:40 (permalink)
Bristol_Jonesey
irvin
Anderton
irvin
I personally would prefer a "no more 'content', only bug fixes and new features (in that order)" approach. I don't need 7000 useless guitar loops - I need 'pre-roll recording'. Virtually every other DAW has had it for years and it's a great time-saver and workflow (that's why all major DAWS chose to implement it).


Content is done by third parties or people at Cakewalk who aren't involved in engineering, so it has zero impact on development.




It does - because whatever resources are allocated to obtaining and providing this "content" (in the form of employee salary, outright purchase from third parties, etc.) could be allocated to engineering. Bug fixes and mainstream features ('mainstream' meaning features common to other major DAWs, like pre-roll recording) are far more useful than 'content' of dubious value.


In your opinion.
 
Others may disagree.




 
Of course! Different people have different priorities....lol... 
#69
Anderton
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Re: No new features - just fixes please 2016/02/12 10:38:43 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby charlyg 2016/02/12 11:01:08
irvin
Anderton
irvin
I personally would prefer a "no more 'content', only bug fixes and new features (in that order)" approach. I don't need 7000 useless guitar loops - I need 'pre-roll recording'. Virtually every other DAW has had it for years and it's a great time-saver and workflow (that's why all major DAWS chose to implement it).


Content is done by third parties or people at Cakewalk who aren't involved in engineering, so it has zero impact on development.




It does - because whatever resources are allocated to obtaining and providing this "content" (in the form of employee salary, outright purchase from third parties, etc.) could be allocated to engineering. 

 
No, as I said before it has zero impact on development (well technically, it needs to be included in the installer so people can download it, but that's trivial).
 
Here's why. I create almost all of the content, and it's for projects that I do. As a result this content is created on my own time (weekends and evenings) for projects that have nothing to do with Cakewalk. I make them available to the community because of the positive comments in this forum from people who've tried content like the Hardgroove Steinberger virtual instrument, percussion loops, Monitorizer, VoxTools, Amp Sims, etc. Some people really like them, so why be selfish and keep them solely for myself?
 
Cakewalk does not pay me for the content I create. Third party content is obtained for free not because it's worthless, but because being included provides more visibility for the company. For example, the Boz ProChannel plug-ins brought his company attention that resulted in people checking out their other products. You can think of it as trading content for advertising; both the content and advertising have value.
 
Some of the non-SONAR-specific content I create, like the Gibson Bass Collection, is not included with the membership program but is sold through the Cakewalk store. I do not receive any money for that either, so Cakewalk keeps what they make, and those resources ARE available for engineering.
 
So now that I think about it, I stand corrected...my content creation can have a positive impact on engineering by allowing engineering to have more resources. Cakewalk recently hired two more engineers so it must be working
 

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#70
Kamikaze
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Re: No new features - just fixes please 2016/02/12 10:57:10 (permalink)
I think he's referring to relationships like Nomad, Soft Tubes, XLN and AAS rather than your relationship and what you provide.

 
#71
irvin
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Re: No new features - just fixes please 2016/02/12 11:00:48 (permalink)
Anderton
irvin
Anderton
irvin
I personally would prefer a "no more 'content', only bug fixes and new features (in that order)" approach. I don't need 7000 useless guitar loops - I need 'pre-roll recording'. Virtually every other DAW has had it for years and it's a great time-saver and workflow (that's why all major DAWS chose to implement it).


Content is done by third parties or people at Cakewalk who aren't involved in engineering, so it has zero impact on development.




It does - because whatever resources are allocated to obtaining and providing this "content" (in the form of employee salary, outright purchase from third parties, etc.) could be allocated to engineering. 

 
No, as I said before it has zero impact on development (well technically, it needs to be included in the installer so people can download it, but that's trivial).
 
Here's why. I create almost all of the content, and it's for projects that I do. As a result this content is created on my own time (weekends and evenings) for projects that have nothing to do with Cakewalk. I make them available to the community because of the positive comments in this forum from people who've tried content like the Hardgroove Steinberger virtual instrument, percussion loops, Monitorizer, VoxTools, Amp Sims, etc. Some people really like them, so why be selfish and keep them solely for myself?
 
Cakewalk does not pay me for the content I create. Third party content is obtained for free not because it's worthless, but because being included provides more visibility for the company. For example, the Boz ProChannel plug-ins brought his company attention that resulted in people checking out their other products. You can think of it as trading content for advertising; both the content and advertising have value.
 
Some of the non-SONAR-specific content I create, like the Gibson Bass Collection, is not included with the membership program but is sold through the Cakewalk store. I do not receive any money for that either, so Cakewalk keeps what they make, and those resources ARE available for engineering.
 
So now that I think about it, I stand corrected...my content creation can have a positive impact on engineering by allowing engineering to have more resources. Cakewalk recently hired two more engineers so it must be working
 


So, if I understand correctly, Cakewalk advertises the content as part of the membership's benefits even though it doesn't cost them anything because they are getting it for free?

No offense intended, but that explains why it's so low quality and generic.

Still, I would prefer that Cakewalk provided better features and more bug fixes instead of this free content. But that's just my preference; other people may find the "free" (free only to Cakewalk, we users are paying for it even if we don't like it) content valuable...
#72
charlyg
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Re: No new features - just fixes please 2016/02/12 11:04:29 (permalink)
And I am happy with the content.IT  does what I need to create drums and keys to go along with our "live" bass,guitars,and vocals. All it does is take up hard drive space.which is now cheaper than dirt.
 
And generic is better than specific.......more folks will use generic stuff in generic music....since there is more of it.

 
 
#73
irvin
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Re: No new features - just fixes please 2016/02/12 11:08:05 (permalink)
charlyg
And I am happy with the content.IT  does what I need to create drums and keys to go along with our "live" bass,guitars,and vocals. All it does is take up hard drive space.which is now cheaper than dirt.
 
And generic is better than specific.......more folks will use generic stuff in generic music....since there is more of it.


That's perfectly fine with me. In fact, more people should express their preference, one way or the other. That way, the path to follow (more content? More bug fixes? Better features?) would be clear to everyone. I firmly believe that the majority's opinion should rule.
#74
Pragi
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Re: No new features - just fixes please 2016/02/12 11:15:33 (permalink)
[/quote irvin]
No offense intended, but that explains why it's so low quality and generic.

I don´t think so,there has and will be top content and 
vst´s like the Nomad stuff,Rapture session and AD drums  which
are awesome.
Abd the drum replacer, the anderton amps ,amd,and ,and.....
 
 
#75
Kylotan
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Re: No new features - just fixes please 2016/02/12 11:20:55 (permalink)
Cakewalk, like most companies, will always be trapped between trying to keep existing customers and trying to win new customers. A straw poll on a forum like this is bound to be biased towards the former and they will take that into account. As such you're probably best off just reporting the bugs and requesting the features and hoping for the best.

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#76
stratman70
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Re: No new features - just fixes please 2016/02/12 11:29:25 (permalink)
charlyg
Evidently not basic enough for me. I use EZD2 and EZKeys and they handle all the midi(loops) I  need.




Sorry to be OT here-But I use both of those (EZD3 & EZkeys) and they "were" part of the midi that I was trying to "delete the hole" So I don't get how that has anything to do with the delete the hole bug-You make it sound like having those makes the bug go away?
 
- Now on topic-I have all I need so just making Sonar better is OK with me-yes I like the little goodies too, but I don't even use all that I have now-not to mention all the 3rd party stuff i have. But in the end some of the new stuff I am using, so.................?

 
 
#77
charlyg
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Re: No new features - just fixes please 2016/02/12 11:43:07 (permalink)
I'm just doing basic loops, I pick an intro, verse, chorus, solo, and outro, and  clip drag the loop to the length needed. If I want to add a fill,I just drop it where needed. I would probably be in melodyne to do anything else with the part.
 
 
I also freeze when I am happy with what we have.fwiw

 
 
#78
Anderton
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Re: No new features - just fixes please 2016/02/12 11:52:39 (permalink)
irvin
So, if I understand correctly, Cakewalk advertises the content as part of the membership's benefits even though it doesn't cost them anything because they are getting it for free?

 
As I explained before, the content and the visibility the companies receive have value. The members benefit from the content, Cakewalk benefits from not having to devote resources to it, and the manufacturer receives greater visibility. No one is forcing anyone to use the content, and those who benefit from it can download and use it.

No offense intended, but that explains why it's so low quality and generic...Still, I would prefer that Cakewalk provided better features and more bug fixes instead of this free content. But that's just my preference; other people may find the "free" (free only to Cakewalk, we users are paying for it even if we don't like it) content valuable...



Well, it's not clear exactly what you're referring to. You mentioned "7,000 guitar loops" and although that's fictional, I assumed you were using that as an umbrella term for the content that ships with the membership updates like loops, instruments, and FX Chains. However maybe as Kamikaze is proposing, you actually mean the add-ons to SONAR like Nomad, Soft Tubes, XLN and AAS.
 
As I've said twice before, the content I provide for the membership doesn't cost you anything, so I guess you're not referring to that? It would probably further the discussion if you quantified the content you find "so low quality and generic" as I don't think anyone knows for sure what you're referring to. (If it's the core Audio Library that ships with SONAR, I consider that an uncurated mess. It was set up years before the acquisition, and there will be significant changes to it in the future. I can't give details but what we are working on involves content that is considered by many the best in the industry, will not impact development, and will not cost money to users unless they want more than is provided.)

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#79
Anderton
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Re: No new features - just fixes please 2016/02/12 11:57:13 (permalink)
irvin
I firmly believe that the majority's opinion should rule.



While that sounds good in theory, it's a little more nuanced than that. My favorite example comes from when I was running Electronic Musician magazine. We had a record reviewer named Robert Carlberg who was both snarky and intelligent. In reader surveys, 85% of the readers said they didn't want to see record reviews in the magazine, they would prefer the space was used for something else. But the 15% who wanted the reviews loved Carlberg's writing, and many of them said those reviews were the primary reason they subscribed to the magazine. So we kept the reviews because they were extremely popular among a very loyal group of readers.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#80
M@
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Re: No new features - just fixes please 2016/02/12 12:01:10 (permalink)
Would be interesting to see what people would 'pay' for.
Say CW would offer a 'bugfix' membership a 'content' membership and a 'features' membership all separately. Most probably viewed over a say 3 years period the percentages of purchases for each category will end up pretty even.

I personally feel that the timing is what annoys me (a little): Content can be delivered monthly. Fine, it's not part of the sonar-core programme, mostly bugfree and I can choose to use it or not. Features could be added 2 or 3x per year...that way my system is not "changing monthly". Bugfixes do not need to appear regularly at all, that is....they can be released as soon as the releases/fixes have been tested extensively and are most likely NOT introducing new bugs!
That way I don't have to worry about being faced with a potentially unstable system every month. As it is now I've been skipping every two updates but also been missing out on the content/features to play with.

(Just my opinion right now....subject to change by other good arguments :) )

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#81
Anderton
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Re: No new features - just fixes please 2016/02/12 12:07:15 (permalink)
M@
That way I don't have to worry about being faced with a potentially unstable system every month.

 
Cakewalk is kicking around an idea that may solve that issue. Nor ready for prime time yet, though. 
 
As it is now I've been skipping every two updates but also been missing out on the content/features to play with.


Much of the content is downloadable separately so no problems with that. As to the features, all reports are that the rollback feature is extremely robust. Bugs often affect only a particular functionality. What I advise is downloading the update and using it. If you run into something that's a problem, roll back.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#82
Paul P
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Re: No new features - just fixes please 2016/02/12 12:09:06 (permalink)
M@
Bugfixes do not need to appear regularly at all, that is....they can be released as soon as the releases/fixes have been tested extensively and are most likely NOT introducing new bugs!



Cakewalk relies on us to put the updates to hard use and discover the bugs.  Not saying that's bad since we're not forced to participate, just pointing out that the "extensively tested" part is done by us and the update must be released for this to happen.  So the sooner the better.  The introduction of new bugs (to us) is inherent in this way of doing things.

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#83
irvin
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Re: No new features - just fixes please 2016/02/12 12:09:39 (permalink)
M@
Would be interesting to see what people would 'pay' for.
Say CW would offer a 'bugfix' membership a 'content' membership and a 'features' membership all separately. Most probably viewed over a say 3 years period the percentages of purchases for each category will end up pretty even.


That would not be good business for Cakewalk. They maximize profit by forcing customers to pay for the 'bundled content' that does not cost anything to Cakewalk.
#84
irvin
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Re: No new features - just fixes please 2016/02/12 12:21:49 (permalink)
Anderton
irvin
I firmly believe that the majority's opinion should rule.



While that sounds good in theory, it's a little more nuanced than that. My favorite example comes from when I was running Electronic Musician magazine. We had a record reviewer named Robert Carlberg who was both snarky and intelligent. In reader surveys, 85% of the readers said they didn't want to see record reviews in the magazine, they would prefer the space was used for something else. But the 15% who wanted the reviews loved Carlberg's writing, and many of them said those reviews were the primary reason they subscribed to the magazine. So we kept the reviews because they were extremely popular among a very loyal group of readers.


You kept the record reviews because it did not cost you much to keep them - the 85% found value in other areas of the magazine, while the 15% more than covered the cost of keeping the reviewer around. So, that's like an apples to oranges comparison.

That said, I get what you're saying, and it all comes down to what Cakewalk thinks is best for the company's bottom line. If enough users find value in certain things, that's the way to go. I can understand that.
#85
tenfoot
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Re: No new features - just fixes please 2016/02/12 12:32:45 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby ChazEd 2016/02/12 12:39:13
irvin

No offense intended, but that explains why it's so low quality and generic.




Over the years in various studios I have found that the usefulness of software,  content or most anything in the production process has little to do with one persons subjective measure of 'quality' .  In every case it's intrinsic value is in direct proportion to the skill and creativity of the person using it. 
 

Bruce.
 
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#86
Anderton
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Re: No new features - just fixes please 2016/02/12 13:20:38 (permalink)
irvin
M@
Would be interesting to see what people would 'pay' for.
Say CW would offer a 'bugfix' membership a 'content' membership and a 'features' membership all separately. Most probably viewed over a say 3 years period the percentages of purchases for each category will end up pretty even.


That would not be good business for Cakewalk. They maximize profit by forcing customers to pay for the 'bundled content' that does not cost anything to Cakewalk.



I still can't figure out how you can justify saying "They maximize profit by forcing customers to pay for the 'bundled content' that does not cost anything to Cakewalk." I'm more than happy to address your concerns, but I need to understand the basis for what you're saying. As explained before if you're referring to the content I provide you're not paying for it, and if you consider AD, Blue Tubes, Melodyne, etc. as content, of course Cakewalk does pay something for those. However the company is able to negotiate a good price and passes the savings along to the community. Personally I would not have paid $150 for Addictive Drums, $99 for Melodyne, or hundreds of dollars for the Nomad Blue Tubes bundle, but given that they were included in an upgrade that cost $150, I think most people would consider that a reasonable amount of value.
 
It would really help if you specified the "so generic and low quality" content you think you're paying for. 

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#87
Anderton
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Re: No new features - just fixes please 2016/02/12 13:26:31 (permalink)
irvin
You kept the record reviews because it did not cost you much to keep them - the 85% found value in other areas of the magazine, while the 15% more than covered the cost of keeping the reviewer around. So, that's like an apples to oranges comparison.



Just to be clear I was not referring to the economics, but addressing your comment that you "firmly believe that the majority's opinion should rule." If the majority opinion ruled, he would have been excluded from the magazine regardless of the economics. However I certainly agree with you if what you're saying is that in terms of priorities, the majority viewpoint needs to be accommodated first. Then if possible, you can take care of "vocal minorities." 

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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michaelw
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Re: No new features - just fixes please 2016/02/12 16:01:36 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby SteveStrummerUK 2016/02/13 23:01:25
Sonar cured my Cancer, Emphysema, Heart Disease, and Club Foot--What more could you ask for??

Sonar X3, X2
Win 7 64bit
i5- 4.4 GH
256 Samsung 840 Pro SSD
Scarlet 18i6
#89
jatoth
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Re: No new features - just fixes please 2016/02/12 18:34:53 (permalink)
Anderton
M@
That way I don't have to worry about being faced with a potentially unstable system every month.

 
Cakewalk is kicking around an idea that may solve that issue. Nor ready for prime time yet, though. 
 




I think this is ALL some of us have been asking for. I hope it gets kicked up a notch
 

John
 
X3e Producer, Sonar Platinum, Sweetwater CreationStation i5 3.1gHz, 12 GB RAM, 500GB SSD OS drive, 1TB SSD audio drive, 1TB archive/misc drive, dual 22" monitors, Windows 7x64, SaffirePro40 (firewire), MOTU MIDI Express XT, Behringer BCF2000, dbx 586, Samson Servo 120a, Yamaha HS80M, Auratone 5c Cubes, Sennheiser HD650, Sony MDR 7509HD, Sony MDR 7506, Kurzweil K2500XS, Roland XP-30, Proteus 2000.
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