cparmerlee made the point that Cakewalk has no connection to a notation software company.
 
The notation functionality in Cakewalk DAWs since Pro-Audio days was spun off to a company now called SonicScores. They make the notation product called Overture and its lite version Scorewriter, which is what I use for my notation needs. SonicScores are about to launch version 5 of Overture, which supposedly will be a major advance in notation software in that it will include things that are more like a DAW, with a mixer view and plug-ins, etc. if I'm not mistaken.
 
It may be total coincidence, but in the SonicScores user forum, the company's leader said he is going to NAMM, not because they have a booth of their own, but because he is going to be "visiting a few people who are interested in purchasing Overture or licensing it with their products."
 
Maybe it is hoping for too much, but I think it would be a good fit for Cakewalk to hook up with SonicScores in the near future.
 
Whether it involves a collaboration with another company or not, I definitely hope that Cakewalk at least fixes the bugs and maybe provides a few minor enhancements for the SV soon. I'm not being negative, but we have waited long enough for Sonar to reposition itself at or near the top of the DAW world (not the music publishing world) as far as the SV is concerned.

ptheisen
The notation functionality in Cakewalk DAWs since Pro-Audio days was spun off to a company now called SonicScores. They make the notation product called Overture and its lite version Scorewriter, which is what I use for my notation needs. SonicScores are about to launch version 5 of Overture, which supposedly will be a major advance in notation software in that it will include things that are more like a DAW, with a mixer view and plug-ins, etc. if I'm not mistaken.
 

That's interesting.  I had not followed Overture and, frankly was surprised to hear it still was under development.  They certainly refer to DAW features like VSTs.  My guess is that while this could be attractive for lightweight use, it isn't a robust notation program, nor is it a robust DAW.  Programs like Band-in-a-bpx include DAW-style features, like limited support for VST effects, but it really isn't very satisfying.  With BIAB, I tend to generate WAVs for individual instruments, then import them into Sonar for true DAW processing.  Or I might send the MIDI into Finale to as base tracks in a notation project.
 
While I am certainly not against a DAW vendor teaming up with a specific notation vendor, I really don't think this will cause power users to switch their notation program.
 
I think the real opportunity lies in more seamless interfaces from notation to DAW, and the elements are already there: MIDI and MusicXML.  And this isn't just a one-way street.  Lots of people compose within the DAW, but might eventually need to publish professional-quality manuscript, that is well beyond the capability of the built-in notation.  One can easily imagine a MusicXML export that would allow a Sonar project to be imported into Finale or Sibelius.
 
Just for the record, it looks like Sibelius and Musescore support MusicXML.  Here is an older article that shows the support is there, albeit with some limitations.  I assume the support today is much better.  The XML support in Finale is really extensive.  (Finale acquired the company that was promoting MusicXML, so I guess Finale - Makemusic is the official custodian of the standard now.)
http://musescore.org/node/13760
 
Here is the MusicXML compatibility list.  People who are not familiar with this would probably be amazed at how many different products support this interchange standard now.
http://www.musicxml.com/software/
 
Under Overture it says: "Two third-party open source programs hosted on SourceForge are available for converting Overture files into MusicXML 2.0 files. Alberto Vignani has created an ove2xmly converter that writes MusicXML and LilyPond files from Overture 4.1 files. Rui Fan has created an ove2xml converter that writes MusicXML files from Overture 3 and 4 files. Both converters run on Windows."

vintagevibe

cparmerlee

Sidroe
NOW, there seems to be real interest in getting this thing fixed! Or maybe there's more members now that have use of the SF. Whichever, it is! BRAVO!!!

Maybe there is a growing recognition that music technology as a "proper" field of education is being recognized these days.  Perhaps many institutions are no longer viewing this as some little enclave of enthusiasts that like to make strange noises with synthesizers, and now it is being seen as an essential skill for the modern composer.  Certainly fixing the bugs with the notation features should be a priority, but the field of notation is much broader than the current scope of Sonar notation.  This merging of notation, sequencing, and recording should be seen holistically as the field of music production.  And it doesn't stop there, because the real field is media production, including video.  A vendor that doesn't want to be pigeon-holed as just a play-thing for hobbyists needs to broaden its vision here.
 

This is exactly what is happening in education.  Every school I've taught at uses Smart Music.  The new standards for the Georgia Music Educators Association includes music technology standards for teaching.  If it is in school education programs notation is part of it.  But, of course, to Cakewalk it's just a small niche market.

 
Hi Vintagevibe,
If it takes a bit of music education to wake Cakewalk up about the relevance and power of notation + MIDI that's fine by me.  I would think that a lot of professional composers and music educators who don't use Sonar because the staff view is underdeveloped would reconsider because of Sonar's other outstanding features if CW went ahead and took it seriously.  Sonar is one of the easiest DAWs to use, has great features and ergonomics.  If they had a better notation view they'd probably gather a new market of people in addition to those who already love the program.

See the thing is...if kids in school are using your app, then there is a greater chance they will use it as an adult. 
 
And I've said this many times before,  DAWs and Recording Tech will change, come and go.  Notation will be the constant.  So the short run, notation might be a small deal...in the long run it will insure survival.
 
 

 
In my perfect alternative universe - SONAR has the best staff view in the world, and the PRV guys are forced to have their music spaced in staff like this (ignore the keys below). 
 

cityrat
 
In my perfect alternative universe - SONAR has the best staff view in the world, and the PRV guys are forced to have their music spaced in staff like this (ignore the keys below). 
 

 
REALLY interesting!

Kamikaze
How many unique people does it take before a point becomes valid?
 
BTW, its 31 unique people in this thread and it's not even 6 pages yet!

See, I said (a few pages back) that over the year my casual observation was ~35 people. Someone said I was joking. I was not.
 
BTW, the law of averages may take over here and when the thread gets to 20 pages the same 31 (+/- 10 more users) will most likely keep chiming in on why more users are not asking for this necessary change.
 
I always hold out for being wrong (I've been wrong before) but all markets/surveys/polls hit a saturation point and I imagine that 20 pages will be it for any specific SV feature request or bug.  After 20 pages it too will become repetitive.

  People are loyal to a DAW to a fault.  If it's that big of an issue then use something else.  It's pretty obvious the staff view in Sonar will remain as it is. 

YouDontHasToCallMeJohnson
How can it not be assumed that Sonar will attract at least 10,000 new customers just by improving the Track View to the level of the other major parts of the program?
 
7 billion people, 3 billion with access to computers, 1.4 billion computers on the planet, at least 300 million can run Sonar, Sonar is available everywhere on the planet,...
 
There has to be a potential 20,000,000 customers who can and do read charts.
 
I cannot understand why the CW dudes would not see this improvement as a major attraction. Especially in significantly moving toward the goal to have Sonar as the default program in the best music schools on the planet.
 
The maxim is, "Get them Young, and teach them right."  This is to create life-time customers.
 
Raising the level and value of the Staff View is an amazing global business proposition.
 
At this point in the program's capabilities, I say it is one of the most important aspects of the program that can return truly significant profits.

My guess is the CW people grew up playing rock n roll and perhaps other forms of pop music and either have contempt for, or indifference to, music notation, perhaps believing, wrongly, that it represents the music of Europe, snobs and other stuffy characters.   I might be wrong, but considering CW's neglect of the staff view and what seems to be embarrassment about it (never mentioned in their advertising as all the other features are) I might be close to the truth.  Either way, I am now disgusted with their company and will no longer upgrade until they fix the staff view.  CW's attitude toward notation is downright crappy and unprofessional.  Considering how much money I've given this company over the past 24 years (and many others who want better notation) CW, through its inaction, doesn't seem to believe in mutual support for its loyal customers. 
 
JG
www.jerrygerber.com

Sidroe,
I am in the same place as you. I am willing to wait it out one more time.
Meanwhile I am looking very closely at other DAWs.
I have not done this for 7-8 years since I have been using Sonar.
I am liking what I am seeing. I will be downloading demos when I have time.
I question whether Cake is listening at all to the user base.
Have any of the changes to Platinum had prior user support to the extent that SV fixes or color changes have had . No.
The fact that Gibson now owns Cake is if anything, a negative in my book.
I am not impressed with what Gibson is doing with its guitars so there is a very good chance this will carry over to Sonar. The next year will decide.

Growing up using sheet music, when i first opened a DAW I gravitated towards staff view because to me "that's  how music was written". It was clunky and awkward (was using cubase at the time which has supposedly improved in that area) and I found that my friends who used other methods got things done more effeciently. I really don't think Cakewalk has ever willfully neglected it so much as never made it a priority. Splitting hairs, yet still different. The same could be seen when it comes to core components used for various forms of pop music. I see a lot of misconceptions that lead to more misconceptions. An example is the mentioning of the impression that staff view is for snobs. Perhaps some have that impression, but I doubt it factors into Cakewalk's decision making. There also seems to be a misconception the other way that Cakewalk is catering to pop crowd which is equally false. The workflow of dj turned producers is not nearly as intuitive to this crowd in Sonar as it is in prograns like Ableton or Fl Studio. In fact, it may be harder for a pop producer used to Ableton to work with Sonar than it is for a composer to work with Sonar's staff view. Sonar is, at first glance, the classic jack of all trades and master of none. I do stress the at first glance because most of these limitations are able to be worked around. I guess my point is that many of the items that are/were percieved to be catering towards certain crowds were no more pleasing to the core of those crowds than staff view in Sonar is for those that wish to compose midi within Sonar. Those old loops that are included are ok for placeholders but probably not getting much use. I guarantee the person using SD3 as their primary drum is not likely doing modern pop/edm/hip-hop. With that said, pop artist who use Sonar are using third party solutions like maschine, kontakt, Geist, Massive or creating parts of songs in products like Fl studio and mixing in Sonar.
 
Part of me thinks Cakewalk's lack of progress could be rooted in a fear of breaking the product in order to make the needed changes. Staff view as it is now implemented seems like an add on that was meshed into product but not 100% integrated in that way in which event data is natively translated across prv. I don't  think there is a patching of that free of buggy nightmares. I think there is some hope via ARA, but the chances staff becomes what many wish seems small until code is smashed and recreated from ground up. A huge chance to take but potentislky rewarding long term.....if schools suddenly stear away from Mac.

jsg
My guess is the CW people grew up playing rock n roll and perhaps other forms of pop music and either have contempt for, or indifference to, music notation, perhaps believing, wrongly, that it represents the music of Europe, snobs and other stuffy characters. 

 

Sidroe
To be fair I think we need to cut them a little slack about the SV fix. For all these years I don't think that Cake has taken SV very seriously because anytime it was mentioned by a minority of users we were beat down by the guys that don't have the least amount of interest in how to read or write notation.

I think you guys are saying basically the same thing.  It probably isn't very useful to rehash the past or to infer evil motives.  It is what it is, and how it got to this point isn't nearly as important as where the company goes from here.
 
The key point, IMHO is that Cakewalk needs to decide what they want to be when they grow up.  If they want to be a hobbyists tool, fine, but the new subscription plan is a ^$%^%# expensive program for a hobbyist.  And the Sonar technology is clearly far beyond what a hobbyist needs or expects.  But there seems to not be much of a recognition that professionals often live in a world of scores, and that trend is going to continue.
 
Fixing the minimal notation features in Sonar should be a given, but really, that is not enough.  There really needs to be more of a fusion of the professional notation programs with the DAW.

cparmerlee
 
I think you guys are saying basically the same thing.  It probably isn't very useful to rehash the past or to infer evil motives.  It is what it is, and how it got to this point isn't nearly as important as where the company goes from here.
 
The key point, IMHO is that Cakewalk needs to decide what they want to be when they grow up.  If they want to be a hobbyists tool, fine, but the new subscription plan is a ^$%^%# expensive program for a hobbyist.  And the Sonar technology is clearly far beyond what a hobbyist needs or expects.  But there seems to not be much of a recognition that professionals often live in a world of scores, and that trend is going to continue.
 
Fixing the minimal notation features in Sonar should be a given, but really, that is not enough.  There really needs to be more of a fusion of the professional notation programs with the DAW.

It is very useful to rehash the past otherwise you wind up repeating the mistakes you made.
I deal with very large companies every day. I contract with them, so I may have a different perspective when I hear what is for the most part, PR rhetoric. I see how the sausage is made and it is not very pretty.
It has nothing to do with evil, at least at the level of the individuals actually doing the work.

jsg
 
My guess is the CW people grew up playing rock n roll and perhaps other forms of pop music and either have contempt for, or indifference to, music notation, perhaps believing, wrongly, that it represents the music of Europe, snobs and other stuffy characters.   I might be wrong, but considering CW's neglect of the staff view and what seems to be embarrassment about it (never mentioned in their advertising as all the other features are) I might be close to the truth.  Either way, I am now disgusted with their company and will no longer upgrade until they fix the staff view.  CW's attitude toward notation is downright crappy and unprofessional.  Considering how much money I've given this company over the past 24 years (and many others who want better notation) CW, through its inaction, doesn't seem to believe in mutual support for its loyal customers. 
 
JG
www.jerrygerber.com

I almost spit out my coffee when I read this. Hilariously stated but disconcerting as well.
I had not considered the possibility that Cake's attitude may represent the popular trend of anti-educationalism.