Helpful ReplyNo notation fixes!

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ampfixer
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Re: No notation fixes! 2015/01/27 10:30:49 (permalink)
It would appear that staff view is a part of Sonar that can be lumped in with Session Drummer, VC-64 and beatscape. THey have it, so they continue to give it away. To those that have moved on there's not much joy but to brand new users it's an exciting feature. Actions speak louder than words, so I think it's safe to say that SV is a dead duck. I don't use staff view but just in case I ever needed it, I went and bought Notion to fill the gap. Now I has a staff view.

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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: No notation fixes! 2015/01/27 10:49:04 (permalink)
cparmerlee
To try to match Finale or Sibelius in capability would be a vast undertaking, and a very expensive one, both in terms of money and in terms of the focus it would take away from the current product, which still needs to move forward.  The Spreadbury project at Steinberg definitely intends to take on head-on the best of the notation products, but they are probably spending well over $20 million, and that would initially just yield a stand-alone notation product, not improved notation in Cubase.  Of course, one assumes that they would marry those functions eventually, but we're probably talking 2020 for something like that.
 
While the notation world should welcome the Steinberg project (given the limited pace of development on both Finale and Sibelius), it would be insane for Gibson to try to do that.  But fixing some basic bugs and weak features in the Sonar notation engine doesn't seem like an impossible task, nor one that requires an exceptional amount of expertise in the notation field.  It is a limited thing.
 
OTOH, nobody understands MIDI better than Cakewalk.  All the high-grade notation products can export and import MIDI.  And many of them can export and import MusicXML in a comprehensive way.  Even if you don't have MusicXML experts on staff, nearly all competent programmers today are knowledgeable of working in XML, and the MusicXML schema is well defined.  It isn't that complicated, and you would be able to ignore 80% of it anyway.  With a strategy of more seamless interoperability with the major notation products, you would have access to most of what Steinberg might be able to do by 2020, and I bet an import/export process could be built a lot faster than building a whole new notation product. Such a project would give you greatly improved interopberability with all the important notation products out there.  As a strategic planner, I would think that such integration would be a minimum requirement for competing against Steinberg as they do begin to bring their new notation product to market.  (Hint: the Spreadbury product will undoubtedly support MusicXML and MIDI interfaces.)




Agreed regarding your first point. Regarding the latter we're already thinking quite deeply about a more universal strategy. And I know Daniel well - I'm a Sibelius user myself and have been in touch with him over the years about interop issues :) Even offered to hire some of their dev's when they had the Avid layoff. They have the brightest minds in the notation space in his team and its still an immense challenge for them last I spoke to him...

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Re: No notation fixes! 2015/01/27 11:13:16 (permalink)
Hi Noel,  Did you get in contact with any of the Finale people. MakeMusic went private and moved the operation from
Minn. to Colorado.  I know some of the development team didn't make the move and you can tap their expertise.

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Re: No notation fixes! 2015/01/27 11:23:17 (permalink)
Though notation is a non-issue for me, I want to take my hat off to you guys for your persistence and passion. I hope you get at least most of what you want. I never thought this thread would have the legs it has had. And there is more of you than I would have thought. Anywho, kudos and carry on.

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Re: No notation fixes! 2015/01/27 11:57:49 (permalink)
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Agreed regarding your first point. Regarding the latter we're already thinking quite deeply about a more universal strategy. And I know Daniel well - I'm a Sibelius user myself and have been in touch with him over the years about interop issues :) Even offered to hire some of their dev's when they had the Avid layoff. They have the brightest minds in the notation space in his team and its still an immense challenge for them last I spoke to him...



I wish you well on that activity.  I'm not trying to specify a particular implementation -- only to lay out the possibility for something that should be achievable, affordable and valuable to the market.  I do hope you don't limit yourself to a solution that is dependent on Steinberg's project, as it is not a real thing yet and has zero percent market share today.  The advantage of a generalized import/export process is that it could cover over 90% of the notation users out there -- everything from Finale/Sibelius at the high end to MuseScore at the free end.  In particular, with a reasonable integration with Musescore, Sonar users might decide they don't really need any Score View inside the DAW, and you could potentially simplify the Sonar product.  Addition by subtraction.
 
Did I mention free?  http://musescore.org/node/102

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Re: No notation fixes! 2015/01/27 12:18:35 (permalink)
+1 for music xml import

 
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Re: No notation fixes! 2015/01/27 13:00:19 (permalink)
Vote for musicXML support in Features and Ideas.
go here:
http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3152945
click on the number of stars you want to give it. (on the right).

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jfcomposer
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Re: No notation fixes! 2015/01/27 16:00:38 (permalink)
I posted a long list of stuff to the features forum, for those interested.  It's titled "A large Staff View feature list."  I tried pasting the link here but evidently I don't know how to forum.
 
 
 
 
 
post edited by jfcomposer - 2015/01/27 16:09:07
pbognar
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Re: No notation fixes! 2015/01/27 18:06:35 (permalink)
I'm hoping the "final solution" is a combination of a few fixes to the existing SV as well as a robust MXML interface.
 
SV fixes for MIDI entry / editing / basic lead sheets or part printing within Sonar.
 
MXML export for those who require engraving quality printing using dedicated notation programs and MXML MIDI import for those who compose in Finale / Sibelius type programs.
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Re: No notation fixes! 2015/01/27 19:15:20 (permalink)
pbognar
I'm hoping the "final solution" is a combination of a few fixes to the existing SV as well as a robust MXML interface.
 
SV fixes for MIDI entry / editing / basic lead sheets or part printing within Sonar.
 
MXML export for those who require engraving quality printing using dedicated notation programs and MXML MIDI import for those who compose in Finale / Sibelius type programs.




I think just about everybody would be happy with that !
 

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Re: No notation fixes! 2015/01/27 19:18:50 (permalink)
Sorry - I meant it in the context of improved MXML only.
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Re: No notation fixes! 2015/01/27 21:20:14 (permalink)
In my experience MXL import/export is a PITA.  I've always had to do quite a lot of fiddling around after import to get things right.  From my experience with Sibelius, Notion, Sonar and Cubase it really is not the solution.  Perhaps it could be implemented better and the experience could be improved.
 
IMO an acceptable workaround would be to have a notation program communicate with a DAW in the right ways:
1) the notation sends all MIDI out each channel - some already to this
2) the DAW reliably inputs the MIDI in real time - Sonar and Sibelius have been very problematic in this situation for me and Jonathan Loving who writes all the Sibelius Sound Sets.
3) Rewire works reliably and both notation app and DAW can be either Host or Slave - Sibelius has never rewired reliably for me with Sonar, Notion is rock solid rewired with Sonar.
 
If all these are met and you can set up all of your sounds in the DAW and just send MIDI from the notation appt to the DAW this would be workable solution for large orchestral works.  For pop songs with a horn or string section notation inside the DAW would be a lot better.  The problem, as I see, it is that apps like Sibelius have a lot of proprietary messages that may not translate over MIDI.  
post edited by vintagevibe - 2015/01/28 11:35:56
cparmerlee
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Re: No notation fixes! 2015/01/27 22:18:40 (permalink)
vintagevibe
IMO an acceptable workaround would to have a notation program communicate with a DAW in the right ways:
1) the notation sends all MIDI out each channel - some already to this
2) the DAW reliably inputs the MIDI in real time - Sonar and Sibelius have been very problematic in this situation for me me and Jonathan Loving who write all the Sibelius Sound Sets.
3) Rewire works reliably and both notation app and DAW can be either Host or Slave - Sibelius has never rewired reliably for me with Sonar, Notion is rock solid rewired with Sonar.

An effective solution will probably have to use a combination of methods, and therefore will not come overnight.  It might be a few years, even if it were a high priority.  To me, what is important is to recognize that this is a potentially important area of technology convergence on the future, and I think Noel said as much. I do hope this can lead to a growing recognition of the importance of having a good notation solution that is not necessarily limited to notation views within the Sonar program.
 
Regarding the richness/effectiveness of MusicXML, I am sure this varies widely.  Success of the tool depends on how well it is implemented on BOTH ENDS.  I did have an experience with it a couple of months ago.  I worked on a project in cooperation with a professional symphony orchestra.  For this project they gave me a template that had the score layout exactly as they wanted it.  This template was in Finale 2012 and had been heavily modified by the orchestra librarian staff over the years.
 
I used Finale 2014 for my project, as it was acceptable for the final product to be delivered as PDFs,  All proceeded rather smoothly, but there came a point when the file became really hosed somehow.  As I recall, playback was really messed up and I couldn't seem to fix it.  I never had that problem on the projects I created from scratch, so I assumed these problems were inherited from this particular template.
 
I could have started with a whole new score and dragged all the material from the bad file to the new file.  Instead, I decided to try saving it as MusicXML and then importing it freshly.  That worked almost perfectly.  Almost all of the layout items were preserved.  As I recall, the only real problem was that the lyrics got turned into text, so I had to retype the lyrics, but otherwise, the freshly imported score was just fine.  All my special articulations and expressions came through.  I was surprised at how well this worked actually.
 
My point is there is nothing wrong with the MusicXML standard per se.  If there are problems, they lie in the implementations done by various vendors.  But for the purposes if importing into a DAW, I really don't think that would be a big problem. You would really just be looking to import the score structure (what instruments are on each staff), tempo alterations, meter changes, key changes, etc.  I'd want the notes themselves to be imported from MIDI because that will be the most realistic playback in the DAW, if the notation program is doing any interpretation of slurs, articulations, dynamics and special effect like trills and grace notes.
 

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Re: No notation fixes! 2015/01/27 22:20:23 (permalink)
I too have been disappointed in such a great DAW to create music and score parts for a studio orchestra or even just vocals for a church choir and come up short on a good notation scored product. However, in the 80's when I used cakewalk on my Atari ST1040 and exported the file to Finale, I would edit it there and print out on a dot matrix printer. Finale was not as expensive then, but you don't have to spend $600 for the full version that it is going for now. I purchased Finale Print Music (after free month trial versions from make music to decide between print music $120 and songwriter $50.) Importing MusicXML files from Sonar is easy and the print and editing works well if you have a background in scoring. I work along side top notch software engineers every day and know the expense, time, and un-plagiarized coding required to go into a project. Much dismay to my wish for better notation, Cakewalk is giving us the best bang for the bucks considering all the free stuff we get. Kudos to Cakewalk!

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Re: No notation fixes! 2015/03/06 01:04:19 (permalink)
Anderton
Don't people do that already with Notion or some other program?

 
I sure do...

 
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Re: No notation fixes! 2015/03/06 01:14:59 (permalink)
swamptooth
Anderton
Don't people do that already with Notion or some other program?

 
I sure do...


You don't do it inside Sonar.
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Re: No notation fixes! 2015/03/06 09:56:28 (permalink)
Exactly - or I'd like to know how- (or why given current limitations via rewire)

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Re: No notation fixes! 2015/03/06 10:10:54 (permalink)
Here is an interesting video showing how to link StudioOne and Notion with Rewire:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95Kv0FEJWuA
 
That is interesting.  Rewire support would at least give us better mixing capability from the notation program.  Notion seems to have pretty good Rewire support built in.  I think Sibelius has some Rewire support.  Finale does not, but some people do this using Bidule.
 
Rewire works with WAV tracks, not MIDI, as I understand it.  So in the Notion example, you could bring each of your staves across to a SONAR track, but it would be using the synthesizers in Notion.
 
I am really looking for an easier way to get all the MIDI from Finale into Sonar, where it is easier to edit.  I have a problem with an arrangement I'm doing right now where I have the brass playing figures that have scoops and falls.  the Finale "Human playback" just doesn't sound right.  It does the fall, but you don't hear the written note before the fall starts, they way a live musician would play that.  That is the sort of thing I'd like to touch up in Sonar before releasing the final version.  I don't think Rewire would help with that.
 

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Re: No notation fixes! 2015/03/06 10:19:05 (permalink)
vintagevibe
swamptooth
Anderton
Don't people do that already with Notion or some other program?

 
I sure do...


You don't do it inside Sonar.

Well i do it inside sonar as well, mostly for building textures and chord structures. If I need easy access to articulations I rewire Sibelius.

 
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Re: No notation fixes! 2015/03/06 10:34:24 (permalink)
swamptooth
Well i do it inside sonar as well, mostly for building textures and chord structures. If I need easy access to articulations I rewire Sibelius.

How does that work?  You can't edit the MIDI in SONAR at that point, right?  When you say you access articulations, are you saying you go into Sibelius and change the articulations there?

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Re: No notation fixes! 2015/03/07 11:19:22 (permalink)
Daniel Spreadbury, formerly of Sibelius, now heading Steinberg's development of a new notation product, has written a very interesting series of blog articles.  The latest is here:
http://blog.steinberg.net/2015/03/development-diary-part-10/#more-928
 
The point I want to emphasize is that notation needs can range from minimal (lead sheets, or simple arrangements for a band rehearsal) to extremely elaborate published scores.  Spreadbury's diaries emphasize just how extreme the engraving requirements can be.  It is not plausible that Cakewalk will ever have internal notation capabilities anywhere close to the level of sophistication that Spreadbury describes.  It is doubtful that StudioOne / Notion will ever be in that ballpark either.  And it is doubtful that Sibelius, while owned by Avid, will ever integrate with ProTools to the degree that is expected of the Spreadbury project vis-a-vis Cubase.
 
Clearly the major DAW players see some intersection between DAW and advanced notation.  It seems very clear to me that Cakewalk's best strategy is to embrace interoperability  with the best notation products rather than to try to develop such a capability internally.

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Re: No notation fixes! 2015/03/07 11:26:57 (permalink)
cparmerlee
Daniel Spreadbury, formerly of Sibelius, now heading Steinberg's development of a new notation product, has written a very interesting series of blog articles.  The latest is here:
http://blog.steinberg.net/2015/03/development-diary-part-10/#more-928
 
The point I want to emphasize is that notation needs can range from minimal (lead sheets, or simple arrangements for a band rehearsal) to extremely elaborate published scores.  Spreadbury's diaries emphasize just how extreme the engraving requirements can be.  It is not plausible that Cakewalk will ever have internal notation capabilities anywhere close to the level of sophistication that Spreadbury describes.  It is doubtful that StudioOne / Notion will ever be in that ballpark either.  And it is doubtful that Sibelius, while owned by Avid, will ever integrate with ProTools to the degree that is expected of the Spreadbury project vis-a-vis Cubase.
 
Clearly the major DAW players see some intersection between DAW and advanced notation.  It seems very clear to me that Cakewalk's best strategy is to embrace interoperability  with the best notation products rather than to try to develop such a capability internally.


This has been discussed over and over again for years. If you think anyone wants or needs Sibelius level notation in a DAW you don't understand the issue.  DAWs need usable notation.  That has nothing to do with stand alone notation programs.  They serve a different need.
post edited by vintagevibe - 2015/03/07 11:34:00
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Re: No notation fixes! 2015/03/07 12:59:45 (permalink)
Love Spreadbury's blog - always insightful.

 
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Re: No notation fixes! 2015/03/07 16:48:46 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Bebopnrockin 2017/02/11 03:38:15
vintagevibe
If you think anyone wants or needs Sibelius level notation in a DAW you don't understand the issue.  DAWs need usable notation.  That has nothing to do with stand alone notation programs.  They serve a different need.

I think you may be the one who does not understand.  All of Cakewalk's major competitors have made an investment in high-end notation.  There is a reason for that.
 
Many people may be perfectly happy using their DAWs for laying down tracks of their own creations.  That's terrific.  All DAWs are pretty good at that.  But increasingly, professional musicians, composers, and educators are integrating the DAW with the performance, either as live use of the DAW or through publication of the music created in the DAW.  Many universities have formal curricula on "Music Technology".  Some universities even offer majors in that field, and it includes synthesis, recording, and notation.
 
There is a convergence ahead, not unlike when recording hardware merged with sequencing software to become what we now know as the DAW.  It is a question whether Cakewalk will be a player or not.  I would suggest the companies that excel in this convergence will attract the professional musicians and producers and the other products will find themselves more in the garage band tier.  Nothing wrong with that, but it seems to me the Platinum is well above "garage band" level today and Cakewalk ought to be thinking about a strategy that will allow them to thrive as this next convergence takes place.
 
In simple terms, the convergence is composers who orchestrate in the notation world will seamlessly render their music using the most powerful DAW technology.  And people who compose interactively within the DAW will have a seamless pathway to publish their work as a high-quality manuscript.  That convergence opens the door to a whole new market of customers.

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swamptooth
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Re: No notation fixes! 2015/03/07 17:30:58 (permalink)
cparmerlee
swamptooth
Well i do it inside sonar as well, mostly for building textures and chord structures. If I need easy access to articulations I rewire Sibelius.

How does that work?  You can't edit the MIDI in SONAR at that point, right?  When you say you access articulations, are you saying you go into Sibelius and change the articulations there?

Not exactly... I mean basically i fill out ideas in sonar using notation (sometimes i think in notation sometimes not) and vsts. If i need switching articulations using vsl for instance it's easier to rewire in sibelius so i can just assign the articulation to the note or passage - things like trill or legato or pizzicato are easier to manage using that method instead of keyswitches. It's all about flexibility.

 
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Chandler
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Re: No notation fixes! 2015/03/07 19:00:10 (permalink)
cparmerlee
I think you may be the one who does not understand.  All of Cakewalk's major competitors have made an investment in high-end notation.  There is a reason for that.
 
Many people may be perfectly happy using their DAWs for laying down tracks of their own creations.  That's terrific.  All DAWs are pretty good at that.  But increasingly, professional musicians, composers, and educators are integrating the DAW with the performance, either as live use of the DAW or through publication of the music created in the DAW.  Many universities have formal curricula on "Music Technology".  Some universities even offer majors in that field, and it includes synthesis, recording, and notation.
 
There is a convergence ahead, not unlike when recording hardware merged with sequencing software to become what we now know as the DAW.  It is a question whether Cakewalk will be a player or not.  I would suggest the companies that excel in this convergence will attract the professional musicians and producers and the other products will find themselves more in the garage band tier.  Nothing wrong with that, but it seems to me the Platinum is well above "garage band" level today and Cakewalk ought to be thinking about a strategy that will allow them to thrive as this next convergence takes place.
 
In simple terms, the convergence is composers who orchestrate in the notation world will seamlessly render their music using the most powerful DAW technology.  And people who compose interactively within the DAW will have a seamless pathway to publish their work as a high-quality manuscript.  That convergence opens the door to a whole new market of customers.




Min the features and suggestions forum I suggested Cakewalk licensing or even buying a notation editor.  It seems that at this point Cakewalk can't fix their current notation, so a faster solution would be to get one that already works and just try to integrate it as tightly as possible.  If they did this they could just to the front of the pack when it comes to notation, which would give a lot of  people reason to switch to Sonar.

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cparmerlee
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Re: No notation fixes! 2015/03/07 21:00:28 (permalink)
Chandler
Min the features and suggestions forum I suggested Cakewalk licensing or even buying a notation editor.  It seems that at this point Cakewalk can't fix their current notation, so a faster solution would be to get one that already works and just try to integrate it as tightly as possible.  If they did this they could just to the front of the pack when it comes to notation, which would give a lot of  people reason to switch to Sonar.



There is a huge amount of inertia within the notation camps because there is such a big learning curve, and a huge investment in time and tools to become really proficient at producing publisher-grade scores.  The ones who are most extreme are probably not the most likely candidates for being interested in the convergence with DAWs.  They are mostly heads-down folks, who only render for the purposes of catching errors.  I don't think these people matter much to the DAW strategy.
 
But there is another tier of notation users -- typically a younger generation who are very active with DAW technology.  Most of them are on Finale or Sibelius today.  They won't move easily.  I am in that camp.  I have nearly 20 years investment in Finale.  I might consider moving to another notation program if it is extremely robust, and also well integrated with a DAW that is equally robust.  Notion isn't even close -- I'd never move for that.  And I doubt that Avid will make Sibelius that attractive.  I have a Sibelius license but haven't touched the program for 8 years.
 
The only one that looks like it has the potential to make me move is the Steinberg one, but that is probably 2-3 years away.
 
I really wouldn't be interested in using a half-baked notation program with Sonar, but the strategy you suggest might be the best option for Cakewalk to offer at least basic notation that is reliable. 
 
I'd rather see them work on interoperability with the Open Source MuseScore product.  And maybe they could legally include MuseScore with the Cakewalk installer.

DAW: SONAR Platinum Audio I/F: Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 gen2
OS: Windows 10 64-bit CPU: Haswell 4790 4.0 GHz, 4 core, 8 thread  Memory: 16 GB      Video: GTX-760Ti
Storage: Sandisk SSD 500GB for active projects. ReadyNAS 20 TB for long-term storage

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stratman70
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Re: No notation fixes! 2015/03/07 21:02:33 (permalink)
jsg
I suspect Cakewalk's user base consists of a small number of people who actually read and write music, so they've probably abandoned support for those who do use the staff view.  I wish I were wrong about this, but I don't think I am.  It's a difficult decision for me; Cubase and Digital Performer have better notation but they don't have a color coded event list, which is just as important to me, and there are other things that cause me to much prefer Sonar.  So I may be stuck with Sonar for the rest of my life, although I realize the staff view leaves a lot to be desired.  It's too bad Cakewalk doesn't have enough pride of craftsmanship to care enough to fix the long-standing issues with notation.  
 
Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com
 


I don't use the staff view but that's a very good post and a great Point at the end.
Hopefully they will for those that need it.

 
 
vintagevibe
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Re: No notation fixes! 2015/03/07 21:03:52 (permalink)
Chandler
[
Min the features and suggestions forum I suggested Cakewalk licensing or even buying a notation editor.  It seems that at this point Cakewalk can't fix their current notation, so a faster solution would be to get one that already works and just try to integrate it as tightly as possible.  If they did this they could just to the front of the pack when it comes to notation, which would give a lot of  people reason to switch to Sonar.





They bought one years ago, did nothing with it and then sold it.
YouDontHasToCallMeJohnson
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Re: No notation fixes! 2015/03/07 21:16:22 (permalink)
Now that CW is supported by Gibson I expect some changes to occur for this issue as well as many other concerns we have about how Sonar does not do what other less best DAWs do.
 
Including my major pet peeve: importing and exporting track templates with data, audio and midi.
 
The education market is essentially not a Sonar market until these two issues are fixed. Makes me way sad.
 
(Reducing the number of menus and totally configurable toolbars would be a way close 3rd.)
 
 
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