Dakes
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/02/18 13:06:44
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great, thanks for clearing that up. i'll avoid that usb controller.
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losguy
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/02/18 13:11:23
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ORIGINAL: zendin
Thanks for all the detailed info losguy!!!
De nada!
PowerStrip reports the Multiface as a "Xilinx Audio Device". It is running on IRQ 22 and has a latency of 248 (which from your article would be near maximum-priority).
...
The AsusTek Firewire bus is also on IRQ 22, and it reports a latency setting of only 32. Now I'm assuming it's expected for the Multiface (Xilinx) and Firewire bus to both be using the same IRQ, right? Should they also have the same latency setting? Even if the Multiface is running a latency of 248, isn't it going to be "starved" if the bus itself is set to 32??? Am I reading these tea leaves right here? ;)
It could be an issue if you need high sustained bandwidth on both devices at once. If the Firewire got starved, you could click the Multiface down a notch or two. Unless an audio device needs to sustain 200 audio channels at 24/96 (substitute your obscene audio situation here), it really shouldn't need such a high value.
I don't experience any crackling audio - my main problem is very high and unstable CPU usage.
So, I assume this is your real issue? PCI latency timer settings are all about balancing available bus bandwidth, not creating new bandwidth (bus, CPU, or otherwise) where there isn't enough to begin with. For example, rebalancing PCI latency can help in situations where you hear audio glitches, even though you have only two tracks and 1% CPU usage. The topic of high/unstable CPU usage has been covered extensively elsewhere on this forum, just do a search. On the subject of erratic, you may also want to check out your system thoroughly to make sure that you don't have a non-SONAR CPU hog. Check your Processes in Task Manager while the problem is occurring. Click on CPU to get a list ordered by CPU usage, and look for any rogue culprits that pop up near the high end. If it's all inside the SONAR process thread, then I'd start looking for a hungry plugin that I could bounce to a track.
< Message edited by losguy -- 2/18/2004 12:13:35 PM >
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zendin
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/02/18 13:20:42
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ORIGINAL: losguy
On the subject of erratic, you may also want to check out your system thoroughly to make sure that you don't have a non-SONAR CPU hog. Check your Processes in Task Manager while the problem is occurring. Click on CPU to get a list ordered by CPU usage, and look for any rogue culprits that pop up near the high end. If it's all inside the SONAR process thread, then I'd start looking for a hungry plugin that I could bounce to a track.
There certainly is some of this going on. I've got a couple of freebie VST's that I use occasionally (Triangle II and Crystal) that use 5% or 4% CPU, respectively, themselves. This as reported by CPU Hawg (I've tried to keep up with all those high-CPU usage threads! ;) I'm thinking that maybe I'm just going to have to revamp my workflow, something like the following: Stage 1 - Compose - VST's running live. No EQ, minimal effects and automation. Stage 2 - Mix - all VST's bounced to audio and VST's "frozen". EQ/effects/busses/automation necessary to mix down the track. Stage 3 - Mastering - Single stereo track. Ozone and other mastering plugins running. While I'd prefer to skip #2, I'm just not sure my system can handle it, and based on what I've seen from others, I'm really not even sure I could upgrade my system (mobo, RAM, etc.) to allow me to do so. I'd love nothing more than to have 40 or 50 tracks (mostly MIDI and DXi/VST) with per-channel effects, plus busses, plus loads of automation, but I'm really not sure this is a reality for the product at this time.
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losguy
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/02/18 13:41:20
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Good points. Your workflow looks about right for the way things are. Still, it's a huge step forward from where things were, even in the not-so-recent past. (I mean, remember ADATs? Not so long ago, that was the way for people like us to have a digital multitrack recording studio! Oh well I suppose ProTools, but frankly, I never bought their $/performance ratio.)
The other way around is for you to add coprocessing for your VSTs. But that still requires an investment. If it were me, I'd put my money on the vst export pc thing. So-called "PC farms" have been used for rendering video for movies for around a decade now. Why not audio?
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zendin
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/02/18 14:43:58
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I've just heard about this concept recently. I'm a programmer, so I can understand the concept of having a server to just serve up VST's for client apps. Intriguing.....I'll have to do more research on this one. I've got an AMD 2700 machine for my kids - could I install the VST dll's on that and just map to that shared folder with the VST adapter and boom - I'm done??? I couldn't be so lucky to have it be so simple, right???
< Message edited by zendin -- 2/18/2004 2:47:53 PM >
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losguy
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/02/19 11:25:00
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Right... remember the client/server aspect. You have to have the VST DXi host executable running on the second machine. One way would be to have a second (legal) copy of SONAR running on the second PC, and hook up MIDI and audio between them. A much better way is to have FX Teleport running on the second machine. That way, you stay 100% digital, you save on a second set of MIDI and audio interfaces, and (best of all) you work your project 100% within SONAR on the primary machine.
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Patrice Brousseau
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/02/19 17:35:53
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There's is also another way to change PCI Latencies and it's free (but more complex maybe): I used Sisoft Sandra to see what were the values. In WCPREDIT ( http://www.h-oda.com/ ), I took notes of where were the possible locations of latency values. There was two places with a value of C0 that I know to be my Echo Mia latency (192 in fact). Then, I changed my Mia latency as desired with PCI Config Utility from SLS Corp ( http://slscorp.com ) using a conversion table ( http://www.proav.de/data/hexcode.html ). Did the same way for my Promise controller, reducing from 240 to 100. I then looked at the differences with WPCREDIT ( http://www.h-oda.com/ ). It seems that latencie values for all devices are located at registry OD ( not sure though ). Then, all you need is to use WCPRSET ( http://www.h-oda.com/ ) to load these values each time you boot your computer. Not as simple as Powerstrip but it works! By the way, thans to losguy for that excellent thread! Really useful.
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Patrice Brousseau
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/02/19 17:45:46
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losguy
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/02/19 18:13:01
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ORIGINAL: Patrice Brousseau
Not as simple as Powerstrip but it works!
..\D This is my hat, tipping to you, Patrice. You followed through and nicely tied up a loose end from way back at the first post. I didn't know about these h-oda CPU register utilities, but I assure you that I would have tried them had I known about them earlier. (I may still, given time and opportunity.) In fact, you may be interested to know that I used the slscorp utility to first discover the solution, before I even knew about PowerStrip. Once I knew that I could change PCI latency timer values reliably, I asked the slscorp guys if they had or could provide a version of the utility that automatically set the values on restart. They agreed that it would be a good idea, but they pleaded being too busy and never got back to me. So, I kept looking and eventually ran across PowerStrip. I had seen WCPUID a lot on gamer/overclocker sites, but never pursued it further, because I never imagined that h-oda would have PCI register setting utilities too (though in retrospect, it makes perfect sense that they would). BTW, the address offset value 0x0D (13 decimal) must be a standard or default of some sort. It seems to come up a lot for getting/setting the timer value. I notice on h-oda.com that WCPRSET is not available for download ( Service Stopped). Did somthing change, or is there a better place to get it? Also, WCPREDIT appears to have different versions or configs for different motherboards. Do you know if you have to match it exactly, or is there a more universal version that you know about?
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Patrice Brousseau
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/02/19 20:54:36
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WPCRSET available here: ftp://ftp.vector.co.jp/pack/win95/hardware/other/wpcrs120.exe and here: http://www.ocmodshop.com/default.aspx?a=125&p=266. The config files are just here to help to explain all the parameters. If I load my config file (KT133A), it tells me what register are for but only for my chipset (so you see like "CAS RAM SETTINGS" or "PCI LATENCY TIMER" in place of "RESERVED"), PCI cards or devices don't have those configs available. So, loading configs doesn't change any values at all, just making parameters more clear (description of which register does what) , only for chipsets. I hope I'm clear (english is not my main language, sorry...). Patrice
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losguy
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/02/20 13:17:49
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ORIGINAL: Patrice Brousseau
I hope I'm clear (english is not my main language, sorry...).
No problem, your English is very readable, even the technical part. Thanks for the clarification on the config files. Looks like h-oda's English could use a little work, though. I managed to translate his included docs from Japanese to English using babelfish, so I can sort of make out what's going on. I tried to run WCPREDIT on my work machine, but it complained that I didn't have the correct device driver. I see that WCPRSET has a DD install. Do I need to install that first?
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Patrice Brousseau
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/02/20 21:07:37
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I have a file called "wpcre2a.exe" and it expands to 13 files. Then, I can run WPCREDIT.EXE just by clicking on the icon.
Are all your expanded files on the same folder?
And you do not need to have WPCRSET installed to run WPCREDIT.
About complaining for a device driver, I really don't know. I run Windows XP SP1 and I didn't need to install or add anything to run the utility.
Patrice Brousseau
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losguy
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/02/20 21:26:25
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Good point about the OS. It works just fine for me too on WinXP, but complained to me on a Win2K machine.
Nice little tool, especially if you're not afraid of a little hex (-adecimal, I mean).
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vicm
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/02/22 19:47:01
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Gigabyte ga-7n400 pro2
supports sata/raid ata/raid Dual Channel memory (Big Plus)
I am using this MB with a athlon 3200+ .. Excellent !!
cpu work half, yea half as my ga-7vaxp -2.6g system
about $125
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losguy
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/02/22 20:26:45
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ORIGINAL: vicm
Gigabyte ga-7n400 pro2
supports sata/raid ata/raid Dual Channel memory (Big Plus)
I am using this MB with a athlon 3200+ .. Excellent !!
Hey vicm, I'm glad this MOBO is working out for you so well. I have bad news and good news about this MOBO. Here are the specs. The bad news part hearkens back to vtd's question. Actgually, he was wondering if there were any AthlonXP MOBO's with SATA integrated onto the chipset. As the specs show, this MOBO has nVidia nForce2 (just like my ASUS A7N8X Dlx), so all of the SATA and/or IDE RAID controllers are not part of the chipset, so they hang off of the external PCI bus (just like mine). Still, even if they exhibited audio glitching on SATA, the good news is that with could very likely be fixed by following this very same thread, from the top.
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bulls hit
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/03/09 22:32:31
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ORIGINAL: vtd
Well that changes the plan then. 
How do I make sure which Intel chipset provides integrated sata without robbing pci bandwidth? I'd hate to choose the wrong one.
vtd I have just built my new machine on an Asus P4P800 mobo, Intel 865 chipset with integrated SATA on the southbridge. I'm running 2 120GB SATA Barracuda drives (non- Raid) and so far audio performance has been flawless. Bang for the buck, the P4P800 is hard to beat for performance and features, and if you're into overclocking you won't be disappointed
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tommydee
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/03/09 22:47:56
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oh lawd... this makes me want to run back to mac and protools -- hang the expense! at least i won't have to be worrying about PCI's, IRQs and BIOS's... ... just flaming!  but sort of serious at the same time...
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tommydee
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/03/09 22:56:40
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If you do manage to reclaim your SATA/RAID drive for audio, then post and let me (and I suppose, the rest of the world) know that it worked. If not, well, I guess that would be useful information, too. But surely, I couldn't be the only person that this works for (besides gamers, that is)?
If SATA drives are so problematic, what (if you were building a new DAW from scratch) should you use instead???
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losguy
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/03/10 10:37:06
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ORIGINAL: tommydee
oh lawd... this makes me want to run back to mac and protools -- hang the expense! at least i won't have to be worrying about PCI's, IRQs and BIOS's...
... just flaming!
but sort of serious at the same time...
Fine, if you want to pay double for the same functionality, then be my guest. Really, it's a free market, it's your right. Some of us like to build our machines from scratch, and actually enjoy (!) the challenges that we encounter and the thrill of success when it occasionally occurs. It's all worth it to us. If you prefer a more consumer-level computer experience, i.e. buying off the shelf as you would a toaster, then by all means, I'm not stopping you! (Though I would recommend your looking up a turnkey DAW provider... there's plenty of them mentioned in this forum.) As they say, diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks. Sorry that you didn't enjoy the thread. EDIT: You should also realize that Macs use the PCI bus too, and I've heard of them not being immune to bus problems, either.
< Message edited by losguy -- 3/10/2004 11:33:10 AM >
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losguy
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/03/10 10:46:55
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ORIGINAL: tommydee
If SATA drives are so problematic, what (if you were building a new DAW from scratch) should you use instead???
SATA for audio drives is only problematic for systems meeting the criteria at the top of the thread. New MOBO's having the SATA controller integrated into the southbridge are much less susceptible to glitch issues. However, I believe that this thread still serves as a general reference for solving glitches due to PCI communication conflicts, particularly with PCI audio cards.
< Message edited by losguy -- 3/10/2004 9:59:46 AM >
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simulacreant
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/03/19 08:34:33
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Hi,
I can't find the screen in Powerstrip where I'm able to change any of the PCI latency timings other than the one for the AGP video card. Am I missing something?
Thanks!
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losguy
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/03/19 11:51:48
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ORIGINAL: simulacreant
Hi,
I can't find the screen in Powerstrip where I'm able to change any of the PCI latency timings other than the one for the AGP video card. Am I missing something?
Thanks!
There's a most-excellent link buried in my top post of this thread, but for sake of convenience, here it is again. Follow that page down to the middle, where you will find a small inset like this: NB: Because quite a few people have written me regarding how to use PowerStrip, I thought it was worth mentioning two things here. If you're having trouble tweaking the PCI latency values, don't worry, it's probably not your fault; the PowerStrip interface is utterly terrible in this regard. First, to be able to switch from one device to another, you need to look to the right of your video card's name. There are tiny scrollbar buttons there that allow you to select the device you want to tweak. Second, if you find that you can't actually change the latency values, you should look for a check box labelled "Read-only" and make sure it's unchecked. If you still can't find them, click here for a diagram that might help. Read it and click the link at the end of the paragraph, and I think you will have what you need!
< Message edited by losguy -- 3/19/2004 10:52:55 AM >
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simulacreant
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/03/19 11:58:34
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michael mcbride
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/03/19 12:04:10
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Wow!
I'm not certain of what I read, but it sure is interesting. Thanks for the post.
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losguy
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/03/19 13:02:48
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ORIGINAL: michael mcbride
Wow!
I'm not certain of what I read, but it sure is interesting. Thanks for the post.
You're very welcome! (I think...)
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vtd
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/03/24 14:25:38
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Thanks for the very helpful answers before, but now I really need Help! Just to double check with you guys. I'm finally getting a new MB soon with SATA for some heavy duty vst/kontakt hd streaming on a sata hd. Someone mentioned here that ASUS P4P800 works since it's an Intel 865 chipset. I'm guessing then this does fit the profile of one of the working MBs for SATA free problems? Also I'm guessing the ASUS P4C800 is Intel 875 and should have no problems with SATA either? Lastly since I'm asking, what's the difference between an intel 865 and 875 chipset? Thanks everyone!
< Message edited by vtd -- 3/24/2004 2:31:07 PM >
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HammerHead
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/03/24 14:37:09
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I'm taking the SATA plunge with fingers crossed...
My ide audio drive is gasping for air. fortunately i was able to back it up
one last time.
I just ordered 2 120gb Sata 7200 drives from newegg , planning to go with a raid0 configuration.
ASUS A7N8X-E Deluxe
Athlon XP 2800+
1GB 3200DDR
Matrox G450
Win2K Standard Mode
Thanks to the work losguy put into this post , it's alot less of a crap-shoot than it would have been before.
I've got my irq's squared away.
All onboard mobo stuff is disabled except lan.
The default pci latencies look promising :
Matrox 64
Promise Sata1 32
Promise Sata2 32
Lan (I haven't checked yet)
I keep everyone posted.
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bandasound
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio
2004/03/24 16:34:51
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i have a question...will this matter if i am running my SATA as a single drive instead of a RAID.
sys:
abit nf7-s ver.2
athlon xp3000
512 kingston ddr 2700
1 seagate 80 gig barricuda (ata 100)
1 seagate 80 gig barricuda (SATA)
M-Audio Delta 1010
hmm....True R&B is like deep fried chicken, greens, and buttered corn bread...
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btsabq
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio - ? for losguy
2004/03/24 17:26:45
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I was going to start another thread, but since the A78NX-E Dlx MB was brought up :) ...I have a few questions.
I went ahead (from your advise) and upgraded my setup to the A78NX-E Dlx and was wondering what the best use of PCI slots would be for the following devices:
Layla 24 (pci)
Mackie UAD1
Promise ATA 133 controller card (for DVD Burner and extra 120G Drive)
I believe I have them set up as:
Layla 24 = slot3
UAD = slot4
Promise = slot5
(GeForce 2 MX 440 in the AGP slot)
(where I assume pci slot 1 is the one right next to the agp slot...)
I have it set up as acpi so none of the irqs are shown as sharing, but when I boot-up, it shows irq 5 as being shared between the agp video and a "Multimedia Controller" which could either be the Layla 24 or the UAD.
Every once and a while I get a hard lock-up in Sonar. Memtest passed 7 passes. I wonder if this has to do with an occasional glitch with sharing of irq's.
Is there a better way to set this up?
Thanks in advance,
Brian.
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bandasound
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RE: Reclaiming SATA for audio - ? for losguy
2004/03/24 18:42:22
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does your motherboard alow you to assign IRQ manually to each PCI Slot, and does it allow you to automatically
assign an IRQ for the AGP.
more than likely yes...if so then:
turn off the 'automatically assign AGP addres'
and automatically assign all you sound devices IRQ 5, 7 , 10.....those would be the best IMHO!
thats what i did on my abit NF7-S...
and by the way...those AGP cards are not willing to move around...they only have one slot...
hmm....True R&B is like deep fried chicken, greens, and buttered corn bread...
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