MUSE
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Re:SONAR X1 Version C in beginning of August..We are at August NOW!
2011/08/18 08:43:39
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No you're missing the point. This had already been confirmed as a bug by Cakewalk so I wasn't using the programme (untill today I have retried it). So why should anyone bother getting to know a programme that doesn't work for them? That is not laziness, simply prioritisation. If and when it works I will invest more time in it but I hardly see the need to do so when it does not. I have other things to do. Thankyou for your help anyway. It looks like the bug is partly fixed but not completely.
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John
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Re:SONAR X1 Version C in beginning of August..We are at August NOW!
2011/08/18 08:51:18
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Exactly what bug are you talking about?
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MUSE
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Re:SONAR X1 Version C in beginning of August..We are at August NOW!
2011/08/18 08:55:02
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FastBikerBoy
And if I mouse over that audio track the smart cursor is changing to automation edit mode so something is there - and I can see it affecting the synths - I just can't edit it and it isn't showing in the edit filter
If that's the case shift+click when you see the cursor change and you'll automatically be taken into automation edit mode for that envelope.
Thanks - nice idea but it's not doing anything
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MUSE
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Re:SONAR X1 Version C in beginning of August..We are at August NOW!
2011/08/18 08:56:29
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John
Exactly what bug are you talking about?
This one: Seth Perlstein [Cakewalk
]
MUSE
Still no fix for this?
CWBRN-5319
Automation recording is broken Description: - Insert softsynth
- Arm track
- Arm automation write for plugin
- Hit record
- Play synth - tweak some knobs
Expected Results: As well as midi notes this should record at least one (depending on how many knobs tweaked) automation envelope. I generally set it to appear in the audio lane to keep it out of the way of the midi. Actual Results: No automation is being recorded If I then select "undo" and re-record the track automation is recorded (as evidenced by it playing back this time when I select "read") BUT the automation envelope is invisible and I can find no way to make it visible (yes show ghost data is selected) or to edit it further Every time I try and record automation the first time it isn't recorded at all - then when it is recorded it is invisible Provided Specs: Audio 1: - - Integrated /On-board Audio - - Audio 2: NI Kore Driver Mode: ASIO Operating System: Windows 7 64-bit Reproducibility: Reproducible
That is shocking - they have had this for months
This is fixed in X1c.
SP
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John
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Re:SONAR X1 Version C in beginning of August..We are at August NOW!
2011/08/18 09:05:37
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I'm confused. You say its fixed and then above say its a bug.
I wish I had a better understanding of just what you are after.
As to reading the manual surely you have a little time to go through it. It will make a very big difference overall. So many things have changed in X1 from 8XX. Most users here were lost at first until the manual came out.
I was fortunate in I was able to get the manual before I got X1.
Even at this point I still refer to the manual often.
Heck I got a tablet PC to be able read it while not at my DAW.
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John T
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Re:SONAR X1 Version C in beginning of August..We are at August NOW!
2011/08/18 09:15:36
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The idea that you can usefully asses the practical value of any tool while refusing to learn how to use it until *after* you find it easy to use is tortured and insane beyond my comprehension. I need to stop thinking about it before I am pulled into some Lovecraftian pit of madness from which there is no escape.
post edited by John T - 2011/08/18 09:26:53
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SmokeyJ628
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Re:SONAR X1 Version C in beginning of August..We are at August NOW!
2011/08/18 09:16:47
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This is really not that complicated.
Seth at Cakewalk said the bug was fixed. MUSE disagrees based on his/her experience.
MUSE points to the acknowledgement of the issue originally by Cakewalk as evidence that the problem was indeed a bug...not just a lack of understanding about how the program works.
I can't confirm the bug...but that's the gist of this thread.
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MUSE
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Re:SONAR X1 Version C in beginning of August..We are at August NOW!
2011/08/18 09:23:48
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John
I'm confused. You say its fixed and then above say its a bug. I don't understand why you are confused. The bug report referred to two issues - firstly that automation data was not being recorded at all much of the time (usually it would only record if I undid my recording and redid it). secondly that even when something was recorded it was not showing up or editable. The first part appears so far to be fixed (I have had one instance when it did not record automation but can't replicate that). The second part appears not to be unless there is some way to show this data that so far hasn't been identified. Even shift clicking in the audio track (where the smart cursor changes to envelope edit mode) doesn't make them visible. Perhaps it is here that I am doing something wrong and I will try and read a bit more of the manual but really If I have to read a manual to make visible something that in all other hosts simply appears when automation is recorded then maybe even if this isn't a bug it is bad interface design (read Don Norman on manuals)
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MUSE
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Re:SONAR X1 Version C in beginning of August..We are at August NOW!
2011/08/18 09:25:56
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John T
The idea that you can usefully asses the practical value of any tool while refusing to learn how to use it until *after* you find it easy to use is tortured and insane beyond me comprehension. I need to stop thinking about it before I am pulled into some Lovecraftian pit of madness from which there is no escape.
If the tool is not working then it has no value - only a fool would waste time learning how to use something that doesn't work in the first place. Now the bug is ostensibly "fixed" I am giving it another chance. This should not be difficult to understand.
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John T
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Re:SONAR X1 Version C in beginning of August..We are at August NOW!
2011/08/18 09:28:03
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I understand the idea, yeah. However, given that you didn't even know what the edit filter was, you'll excuse my being somewhat skeptical about the rigour of your tests.
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MUSE
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Re:SONAR X1 Version C in beginning of August..We are at August NOW!
2011/08/18 09:29:28
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Well it was confirmed by Cakewalk as a bug. I had not even had a chance to get to know the new interface at that point. Afterwards I shelved it until today.
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John
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Re:SONAR X1 Version C in beginning of August..We are at August NOW!
2011/08/18 09:34:21
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OK Muse. Its the last part that is giving you trouble. I think this is why John T was advising you to read the manual about the edit filter. I don't know if that is the problem (you not using the edit filter) but that is the idea I got from the posts.
I do hope you sort it out.
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MUSE
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Re:SONAR X1 Version C in beginning of August..We are at August NOW!
2011/08/18 09:36:06
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I don't even see the Alchemy automation dropdown appearing in the edit filter so I am not sure it is the issue here. Maybe I need to enable something else first so it shows up? Note, as I said I do see it IF I create assigned controls in advance so I do know (now) what to look for - it just isn't there Also honestly there is not a section on the edit filter. If I type "edit filter" into search in help it does not come up as a specific topic - there is just one entry on searching by filter under edit and a long list of topics among which it may or may not be interspersed and I'm sure if you are used to digging around in the manual you know where it is but it is hardly standing out as a major new feature (can't even see it in the what's new).
post edited by MUSE - 2011/08/18 09:41:53
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John
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Re:SONAR X1 Version C in beginning of August..We are at August NOW!
2011/08/18 09:56:07
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Use the PDF manual (Sonar X1 Reference guide) for searching out key words. I got a ton of stuff on the edit filter doing that in Adobe Reader. Not sure what you are looking for is there but if it is it will show up. Help has lots of stuff but its not always easy to fine it there.
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MUSE
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Re:SONAR X1 Version C in beginning of August..We are at August NOW!
2011/08/18 10:07:50
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Got it! I do need to enable something else before that data shows up in the edit filter. In the help it says "By default automation data is recorded and displayed on the track the soft synth was recorded with". However this does not appear to be the case - by default it is not displayed (or perhaps is ghosted in a way that makes it effectively invisible anyway). You can set it in the instrument properties to create the automation data either in the midi or first audio track However it is only displayed visibly (and only appears in the edit filter) if you first:
1) go into the synth browser pane, into the synth automation menu and manually assign the automation to either the midi or audio track (despite having already told Sonar to do this)
2) At that point it is still not visible but it does then appear in the edit filter and can be made visible (or you can use shift click to show it)
Previously in Sonar 8 (and in any other host) you just needed to record it for it to show automatically. Now you need 2 more steps to make it visible and they are not well documented or particularly explicit. At least it is not a bug - just not a very clear cut system not helped by the way ghost data is displayed so it can't be seen even when "visible".
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MUSE
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Re:SONAR X1 Version C in beginning of August..We are at August NOW!
2011/08/18 10:09:34
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John
Use the PDF manual (Sonar X1 Reference guide) for searching out key words. I got a ton of stuff on the edit filter doing that in Adobe Reader. Not sure what you are looking for is there but if it is it will show up. Help has lots of stuff but its not always easy to fine it there.
Thanks I was using the built in help manual - are they different?
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:SONAR X1 Version C in beginning of August..We are at August NOW!
2011/08/18 10:11:39
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I'm confused. I didn't think it was possible to record a soft synths automation onto an audio track. I know that you can record it onto a different track from the soft synth but surely that needs to be a MIDI track as well doesn't it?
If that is the case which I'm fairly sure it is, you're never going to see it on an audio track 'cos it isn't there.
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John
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Re:SONAR X1 Version C in beginning of August..We are at August NOW!
2011/08/18 10:19:04
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Yes they are. Help will have all the latest changes in versions due to patches but the full program is documented in the manual. There are two manuals. Getting Started and The Reference guide. The Reference is the full 1800 + page manual.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:SONAR X1 Version C in beginning of August..We are at August NOW!
2011/08/18 10:20:51
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Hmm..
Track volume, pan & mute envelopes always appear in the audio track, whether it's an audio track, synth track or whatever.
Not sure about synth parameters, and I'm miles away from my DAW, but I reckon that's where they are FBB.
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MUSE
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Re:SONAR X1 Version C in beginning of August..We are at August NOW!
2011/08/18 10:21:25
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FastBikerBoy
I'm confused. I didn't think it was possible to record a soft synths automation onto an audio track. I know that you can record it onto a different track from the soft synth but surely that needs to be a MIDI track as well doesn't it?
If that is the case which I'm fairly sure it is, you're never going to see it on an audio track 'cos it isn't there.
No in softsynth options it's always been possible (in 2 track mode of course) to record envelopes either into the plugin's midi track or its first audio out track. Unless the synth is frozen it wouldn't have any actual audio in it anyway but in the past at least it has always displayed the envelopes fine without any need for further mouseclicks.
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MUSE
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Re:SONAR X1 Version C in beginning of August..We are at August NOW!
2011/08/18 10:24:33
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Bristol_Jonesey
Hmm..
Track volume, pan & mute envelopes always appear in the audio track, whether it's an audio track, synth track or whatever.
Not sure about synth parameters, and I'm miles away from my DAW, but I reckon that's where they are FBB.
That's where I was going wrong - they do show up if you tell it to do so - I thought I had by selecting that option in synth properties and in previous versions that was indeed enough. But in this version it seems you also need to delve into the synth automation panel and tell it to again, then go into the edit filter and bring them up. I was missing the synth automation panel dropdown step but was further misled by the fact that the data was there but ghosted but making ghosted data visible is not doing a very god job of it (but I didn''t know that either till John told me)
post edited by MUSE - 2011/08/18 10:27:41
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John
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Re:SONAR X1 Version C in beginning of August..We are at August NOW!
2011/08/18 10:25:44
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FastBikerBoy
I'm confused. I didn't think it was possible to record a soft synths automation onto an audio track. I know that you can record it onto a different track from the soft synth but surely that needs to be a MIDI track as well doesn't it?
If that is the case which I'm fairly sure it is, you're never going to see it on an audio track 'cos it isn't there.
Please don't feel alone in this. I'm confused too and don't mind admitting it. 
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MUSE
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Re:SONAR X1 Version C in beginning of August..We are at August NOW!
2011/08/18 10:26:21
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Double post
post edited by MUSE - 2011/08/18 10:28:10
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:SONAR X1 Version C in beginning of August..We are at August NOW!
2011/08/18 10:32:19
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The wall on which the prophets wrote
Is cracking at the seams.
Upon the instruments of death
The sunlight brightly gleams.
When every man is torn apart
With nightmares and with dreams,
Will no one lay the laurel wreath
As silence drowns the screams?
Between the iron gates of fate,
The seeds of time were sown,
And watered by the deeds of those
Who know and who are known;
Knowledge is a deadly friend
When no one sets the rules.
The fate of all mankind I see
Is in the hands of fools.
Confusion will be my epitaph.
As I crawl a cracked and broken path
If we make it we can all sit back
and laugh.
But I fear tomorrow I'll be crying,
Yes I fear tomorrow I'll be crying.
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John T
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Re:SONAR X1 Version C in beginning of August..We are at August NOW!
2011/08/18 10:33:16
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Have you been at the cooking sherry again?
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:SONAR X1 Version C in beginning of August..We are at August NOW!
2011/08/18 10:33:38
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MUSE
Bristol_Jonesey
Hmm..
Track volume, pan & mute envelopes always appear in the audio track, whether it's an audio track, synth track or whatever.
Not sure about synth parameters, and I'm miles away from my DAW, but I reckon that's where they are FBB.
That's where I was going wrong - they do show up if you tell it to do so - I thought I had by selecting that option in synth properties and in previous versions that was indeed enough. But in this version it seems you also need to delve into the synth automation panel and tell it to again, then go into the edit filter and bring them up. I was missing the synth automation panel dropdown step but was further misled by the fact that the data was there but ghosted but making ghosted data visible is not doing a very god job of it (but I didn''t know that either till John told me)
So does this mean you're sorted now?
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MUSE
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Re:SONAR X1 Version C in beginning of August..We are at August NOW!
2011/08/18 10:36:14
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Guess so - the first part was a bug definitely (erratic automation recording). That does appear to be fixed. The second part was a combination of ghosted data not being clearly visible (which does still need sorting) and needing 2 extra steps in different parts of the interface to show automation envelopes that in previous versions (and other hosts) require none.
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John T
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Re:SONAR X1 Version C in beginning of August..We are at August NOW!
2011/08/18 10:42:35
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So not to carp on, but that looks very much to me like looking in the manual was the answer all along. Just saying like.
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:SONAR X1 Version C in beginning of August..We are at August NOW!
2011/08/18 10:47:20
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MUSE
Guess so - the first part was a bug definitely (erratic automation recording). That does appear to be fixed. The second part was a combination of ghosted data not being clearly visible (which does still need sorting) and needing 2 extra steps in different parts of the interface to show automation envelopes that in previous versions (and other hosts) require none.
If you're referring to seeing envelopes you can access the edit filter from the HUD (press T or Middle mouse button) and select envelopes from there. I for one am glad that I can't go moving the clip accidentally or editing more than one clip at a time, stops me doing one by mistake - which with lots of automation on a track is very easily done. I would however like to see a tool tip pop up on mouse over the ghosted envelopes. Then the shift+click to activate an envelope would be really useful.
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MUSE
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Re:SONAR X1 Version C in beginning of August..We are at August NOW!
2011/08/18 10:49:53
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Possibly eventually but the crucial clue was being told that ghosted data just doesn't show up well even when visibility is enabled as up till then I was not even clear something was being written given that (as Cakewalk had acknowledged) that had previously been broken. Then the help system itself is misleading on what should be showing by default and you need to click in 2 different places to even get it to show so I'd say Don Norman would have had a fit if asked to rtfm when the interface should be more transparent in the first place.
Thanks all for your help :)
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