Thanks Willy
for chiming in and the clarification that Cakewalk  don´t
have immediate plans closing the forum.

Willy Jones [Cakewalk]

slartabartfast
The question has been asked but not explicitly answered. Will the Bakery replace the existing forums?

We don't know yet. We're trying something new - it doesn't mean that we're burning down the old thing. Just trying something different. We don't have any immediate plans to close the forums.

Finally some good news, thanks!
 

ampfixer
Setting things up so that your value is measured, voted on and judged is nonsense. It will discourage new comers and if it becomes cumbersome we may lose input from some of the really knowledgeable folks. 

I would be interested to learn more about this. The general direction that most online communities are moving is away from the forum style/model. I don't agree with the premise that being recognized for positive contributions will make somebody less likely to participate. I also don't feel that somebody who only posts garbage content should always get the same megaphone as a helpful contributor. But I have been wrong before, what aspect of it is discouraging, how would you do it differently?

I do not think it is possible to be "right" or "wrong" is all mentioned decisions. The problem is that people can have different opinions.
* I do not use Facebook, as well as no-one around me. But there is a rumor it is very popular; One group of colleagues has switched to tag based tracking/tasks system. I have REFUSED to use it and put mails from it into my spam filter... They have to write me personal e-mails if they want something; I try to convince another working group to use a forum / blog / CMS instead of mailing lists... several years without success.
* if something is "outdated" and superseded by something else (f.e. SMS -> WhatsApp), old machinery will die by itself. But if you "kill" it early, at least someone is going to be rather unhappy.
* counting/statistic system can be used to "keep doing it more, and more, and more...",  this trick is actively used by on-line games, especially FreeToPlay. But as was mentioned before, most CW users are not posting much. And I do not think they will be interested to participate in the "challenge".
 

abacab
Yup!  Never judge a group by bapu.

What he was really thinking.

Let me explain why I was so frustrated.
 
Two things really drive me up the wall: 1) when people get what they ask for but still complain, and 2) when people state as fact something which is speculation, rather than seek an answer about whether their speculation is correct.
 
Re: 1, the most common forum complaints are it's difficult to find things, the search function sucks, useful posts fall off too fast if no one answers them, Cakewalk "ignores" the Features and Ideas forum (which is untrue, but that's a separate topic) and you have to go through a lot of posts to find the actual answers. Furthermore, some people don't feel a forum is the proper place for support, and don't want to go to a forum for support. Helpful, Best Answer, and [Solved] are "tags" that assist the current system but have limited effectiveness. 
 
Cakewalk is interested solely in keeping the existing user base happy, and attracting new users. Anything they do is to accomplish those twin goals. That doesn't mean they will always make the right choices about what to do, but their motivation to do the right thing is beyond question. I promise you that no one at Cakewalk sits around thinking "Hey, what can we do to get people really upset?"
 
They realized what people didn't like about the existing forum (as described above) could not be solved within its existing framework, so they started work on a Feedback Portal. How that would impact the existing forums is something no one could predict, but the Feedback Portal did address many of the complaints.
 
So Cakewalk tried to give people what they wanted, and got blasted for it - ironically, in a long, rambling, essentially unreadable "rant" thread that is the poster child for why the existing forum format is problematic if the goal is to provide meaningful solutions.
 
As to me, 1) why give up on the idea of HC hosting a forum after such a short period of time, and 2) conflicts of interest.
 
Regarding 1, the low-maintenance people here who have open minds, contribute, and are flexible will simply go with the flow, and make the most out of whatever the situation is because that's what they do. These are the same types of people who didn't start threads about how the apocalypse would occur when Cakewalk needed help moderating the forum, and therefore facist moderators would ban everyone who disagreed with them. So they probably wouldn't come to a forum hosted elsewhere because they'll work within whatever framework exists.
 
When doing any kind of sampling, you want to ask a target group. For example you would not ask a drummer what kind of guitar he likes to play. The target group - people who would want to retain an existing forum structure, which HC has - were very well represented in this thread. Yet no one responded favorably and if it was an idea that would be embraced by the target group, to be statistically worthwhile at least a couple people would have needed to say something favorable from the gitgo. So if they're not interested, and a lot of people wouldn't bother to go to a different forum, it's not worth doing so it would make no sense to waste any more time on that possibility.
 
As to 2, are there POTENTIAL conflicts of interest? Of course. But there's a difference between a potential conflict of interes and an actual conflict of interest.
 
Actual conflict of interest: I go to Cakewalk and say "I want you get rid of your forum, move it to Harmony Central, and pay us lots of money to be hosted."
 
Not a conflict of interest: A bunch of people in the Cakewalk forums freak out about maybe not having a forum, I try to think of a solution, realize I'm in a position to actually do something about it, and offer a solution to Cakewalk and the forum. Of course, the appropriate response to that is a personal attack 
 
On a side note, I'm constantly amazed at how many people think they actually know what they're talking about and make statements based solely on their own theories. This would be a much better world if people listened more than talked, and asked questions to test assumptions instead of automatically assuming their assumptions are correct.
 
Wrong assumption: Doing the feedback portal means other SONAR updates won't happen.
 
Correct question: Does doing the feedback portal mean other SONAR updates won't happen?
 
Finally, the "hero" comment. After an attack essentially saying I acted to benefit a conflict of interest, I felt I had to point out that I don't personally benefit from what Cakewalk does or doesn't do (although if they're successful, then I get to keep using my favorite software). If there's no "interest," there's by definition no conflict of interest. However, after 21 years of running what may be the longest-running community for musicians on the net, I know the importance of community better than most, and felt it was important to preserve this community if that ended up being necessary. To be sarcastically called out for self-aggrandizement for simply doing what I think is "the right thing to do" is beyond my comprehension. And if just trying to do the right thing makes someone a hero, all I can say is that the bar for heroism has been set really, really low.

The only thing that should be driving you up the wall is a hover car.... or the fact that we still don't have one!

 

soens
The only thing that should be driving you up the wall is a hover car.... or the fact that we still don't have one!

 

Before ordering concrete model, please check the specification! If it does not support MIDI, HID (Gamecontroller) nor OSC, please ask for detailed protocol. As with other devices, I probably do not have the same.
 
Just imagine, your hover car is delivered and... you can not use it with Sonar. What a shame!

   "Starship Troopers" may have been a bad movie but it is one of the great American novels. It has been ripped off by Hollywood and game developers so often that it's hard to find a science fiction story that doesn't owe an apology to Heinlein.
   And I also don't like the slogan as it applies to the bakery.
  

Base 57
   "Starship Troopers" may have been a bad movie

it's a great movie!

Wow...
 
"Control surfaces for Sonar" - 2700 views in 3 years
"The Bakery ...." - 3000 views in 4 days
 
Where you think CW is going to / should put more effort to satisfy maximum number of users ?

I've been here long enough I remember when Cakewalk used to be on Usenet and I got mad they started this forum and I could no longer use my mail reader. Oh well... Don't suppose it really matters.

I hope you are not serious in proposing to move the thread into Deals because
1) I promote Control Surfaces
2) Soens promote hover cars
3) Craig promote HC
4) Bapu promote himself

If yes, I recommend to read the whole thread...

Threads like this always remind me of
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsdy_rct6uo

ampfixer
Craig, this is what I said and it doesn't match what you are saying. I have inserted comments in bold to clarify and the original words are in itallics..
 
QUOTE:
Is this about the Cakewalk forums or shifting traffic to HC and improve their bottom line. Do I see a conflict of interest here?? ** This is a question not an accusation, increased traffic to a site will increase their potential for increased revenue, even if they host the content for free, or so I'm told by the guys that buy articles from me. ** 
 
Cakewalk is the owner/operator and will do exactly what they want regardless of how many people don't, or do, like it. All I want is to have a good give and take of information. Setting things up so that your value is measured, voted on and judged is nonsense. It will discourage new comers and if it becomes cumbersome we may lose input from some of the really knowledgeable folks. ** My opinion with an explanation of why I have that opinion **
 
And please kill the stupid slogans. - SERVICE GUARANTEES CITIZENSHIP -  What does this even mean, comrade?
** I stand by this as it's a quote from a B movie**
 
I'm offering what I believe to be constructive feedback, not simply complaining, and my comment should be taken as such.
END QUOTE:
 
Now, for those too lazy to look back at my comments here they are again. What's wrong with them? At no point did I ever say that Harmony Central was a bad idea. I wondered if it was a conflict of interest, NO accusation. As a virtual rock star in the recording world and a V.P. at Gibson you should expect to be held to a higher standard than us potato farmers. Where in this do you see a personal attack worthy of your indignation?
 
Today the Bakery section for ideas is more fully populated and I can see just how good it will be for suggestions. It takes away speculation and gives you decision making input almost immediately. I fully support the idea for that topic.
 
I don't know what more I can say other than I am not what you portray me to be.

I know you're not a bad guy and I know you contribute value to this community. What got under my skin was not the conflict of interest comment (as you could probably tell from my initial response), which I felt was just silly because the increase in traffic would be a drop in the bucket compared to the 3-4 million uniques we get each month. It was this comment:
 
"With all due respect Craig, I feel you straddle too many fences to be truly objective about this. You have a finger in every pie and will win regardless of the outcome. This is one case where you can't say you're just a software user like the rest of us. The fact that you are hovering here speaks volumes."
 
My motivation was not to "win" anything, but to make sure the community would be preserved. I don't see how that has anything to do with objectivity or straddling fences.
 
I have a pretty stressful gig overall, which is actually what I love about it - the challenge. But when I come here, it's to leave that behind and get social with fellow SONARians. I "hover" here because I feel like I'm part of the community. When I tell someone how to fix a problem, it's not because I'm with Gibson. It's because I use SONAR and know how to fix a problem. 
 
I would prefer to be seen as just another user when I'm here because that's how I feel. I kind of like it when some new user has no clue who I am. I like being judged for what I contribute, not my reputation.
 
I've said it before and I'll say it again - I wish I was filthy rich so I could fly anyone from the forum who wanted to come to a party where we could all hang out. And you would most definitely get an invite. I love meeting forum people in person...as with me, there are humans behind those screen names. (Well except for Bapu. But until the mothership gets fixed, he's kind of stuck here.)