Sonar 7: First Impressions / Bug Report

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Jose7822
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RE: Sonar 7: First Impressions / Bug Report 2007/09/26 13:02:43 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: eternal85

For all those having Step Sequencer CPU Hogging troubles, make sure CPU Conservation mode is not turned on. I upgraded from 6PE to 7PE and it was turned on by default, making the step sequencer very unusable because of lag and the such. Press the "Pause" key on the keyboard to toggle between the CPU conservation mode.



Definitely not using CPU conservation mode. Have you tried the step I've provided? Did TM show a higher CPU reading when the Step Sequencer window was opened as opposed to it being closed? Just wondering if you're experiencing a different behaviour.

Take care!
#31
David_C
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RE: Sonar 7: First Impressions / Bug Report 2007/09/26 13:05:20 (permalink)
I finally got things up and running on Vista 64 this morning and it works pretty well. Even the Bit Bridge does a nice job of reading my XP32 libs like VSL Vienna SE. I'm going to load EWQLSO and Symphonic Choirs when I get home today to see how they fare.

I have noticed on both X64 and XP32 systems (I dual boot) that on Sonar 7, there's the occasionally glitch in the audio stream. It sounds like a tick or something. Very brief and I don't hear it when I mixdown to wav file. Just wanted to pass that on.

Really happy to have Session Drummer 2. Those drum sounds are GREAT. Love the ride cymbals in particular. The toms have a nice resonance to them as well.


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#32
Dr. Mac
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RE: Sonar 7: First Impressions / Bug Report 2007/09/26 13:18:50 (permalink)
No problems using the step sequencer here. Minor CPU usage (like 5-10%) when active. Im running 32-bit WindowsXP w/ all updates... dual core AMD 2.2GHz and 1.5G RAM. Maybe our systems are different enough to cause the SS to behave differently...

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#33
Blades
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RE: Sonar 7: First Impressions / Bug Report 2007/09/26 13:41:45 (permalink)
No issues here either - core2duo with Layla3g and 2gb Ram. Only have issues (Vista) if I lower the latency below 5ms. Haven't loaded stuff up on the XP side yet.

Blades
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#34
Gerry
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RE: Sonar 7: First Impressions / Bug Report 2007/09/26 13:55:17 (permalink)

Minor detail but color presets only show up to Sonar 5, no 6 or even worse 7 color presets. Maybe a reboot is called for

Gerry
post edited by Gerry - 2007/09/26 14:27:34

 
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#35
Jose7822
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RE: Sonar 7: First Impressions / Bug Report 2007/09/26 14:52:57 (permalink)
Dr. Mac and Blades,

Did you guys leave the sequence playing while checking the Task Manager? Leave the Step Sequencer window open while it plays the sequence and look at the TM, then close the Step Sequencer window without closing TM. Are you guys not seeing the big jump in CPU usage?


Gerry,

I think that's how it came from factory as it only shows up to Sonar 5 for me too.
#36
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RE: Sonar 7: First Impressions / Bug Report 2007/09/26 16:06:19 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Jose7822

Dr. Mac and Blades,

Did you guys leave the sequence playing while checking the Task Manager? Leave the Step Sequencer window open while it plays the sequence and look at the TM, then close the Step Sequencer window without closing TM. Are you guys not seeing the big jump in CPU usage?


Gerry,

I think that's how it came from factory as it only shows up to Sonar 5 for me too.



Thanks Jose, yes those LP 64's sure pump up the CPU just like the VC 64 does,; makes freezing a must for me. Haven't used the step sequencer yet and not sure I ever will.

Disappointed about no presets on the LP 64's because they are handy for giving you a guide line which you can then tweak from.

 
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krizrox
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RE: Sonar 7: First Impressions / Bug Report 2007/09/26 16:54:53 (permalink)
I haven't had much time to do anything meaningful but two things were obvious right away:

1) I can run in multi-processor mode now and no clicks or pops. I'm almost afraid to say it out loud but I checked performance using a large project that would have brought V6 to it's knees and it worked perfectly. Time will tell. I've been living with this problem for so long who knows. If the problem returns I'll say something but for now it looks really promising. Thanks for that!

2) The overall stability of the main work area (GUI) seems improved. The clips don't jitter and jiggle as much when you slip edit the ends. Almost seems perfect. Yeah!!!!

Everything else seems to be working pretty much as expected. I'll run a session with it tonite and see how things go. In terms of just the general audio portion of the program, there don't seem to be too many changes or surprises. Shoudl be an easy upgrade for me. Hope it is for you all too.

Thanks Cake!

Larry Kriz
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#38
CJaysMusic
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RE: Sonar 7: First Impressions / Bug Report 2007/09/26 16:57:25 (permalink)
I just confirmed a bug with Eric, another roomie over the phone. When you have a track with 2 sends on it and you solo one of the bus'es, nothing is heard and no meters move. After deleting one of the sends, the problem goes away.
Cj
post edited by CJaysMusic - 2007/09/26 17:07:16

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#39
Hansenhaus
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RE: Sonar 7: First Impressions / Bug Report 2007/09/26 17:38:06 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: krizrox

I haven't had much time to do anything meaningful but two things were obvious right away:

1) I can run in multi-processor mode now and no clicks or pops. I'm almost afraid to say it out loud but I checked performance using a large project that would have brought V6 to it's knees and it worked perfectly. Time will tell. I've been living with this problem for so long who knows. If the problem returns I'll say something but for now it looks really promising. Thanks for that!

2) The overall stability of the main work area (GUI) seems improved. The clips don't jitter and jiggle as much when you slip edit the ends. Almost seems perfect. Yeah!!!!

Everything else seems to be working pretty much as expected. I'll run a session with it tonite and see how things go. In terms of just the general audio portion of the program, there don't seem to be too many changes or surprises. Shoudl be an easy upgrade for me. Hope it is for you all too.

Thanks Cake!



Larry,

Could you please try this little test shown below and let me know your results?

----------

I start a new project in Sonar 7 by going to file/new and opening the 16 track template that comes with Sonar.

I import an audio file onto track one.

I route the output of track one to Subgroup One.

When I solo Subgroup One I don't hear anything and all the meters go blank.

If I just solo the Effect Send One bus I hear audio but the meter on track one goes blank.

If I solo Effect Send One at the same time Subgroup One is soloed I then hear audio on both soloed busses and the meters remain active.

If I completely delete the Effect Send One on track one I can hear sound on subgroup 1 when it is soloed. The moment I put it back on the track Subgroup One has no sound when soloed.

This is the best I can describe the problem. As I mentioned above, I can reproduce this over and over. I hope this can be confirmed. Otherwise something is screwed up with my installation of S7.

Thanks agian for your help.

Eric

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#40
Jose7822
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RE: Sonar 7: First Impressions / Bug Report 2007/09/26 18:20:18 (permalink)
Eric,

I don't think there's anything wrong with your setup cause I've confrimed this as well. I, like you, can reproduce it 100% of the time too. I've sent an error report to Cakewalk on this matter.

CJ,

Thanks for the info. I would also recomend you too write an error report to Cakewalk so that this issues gets resolved as soon as possible.


Take care both!
#41
krizrox
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RE: Sonar 7: First Impressions / Bug Report 2007/09/26 20:03:32 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Hansenhaus

ORIGINAL: krizrox

I haven't had much time to do anything meaningful but two things were obvious right away:

1) I can run in multi-processor mode now and no clicks or pops. I'm almost afraid to say it out loud but I checked performance using a large project that would have brought V6 to it's knees and it worked perfectly. Time will tell. I've been living with this problem for so long who knows. If the problem returns I'll say something but for now it looks really promising. Thanks for that!

2) The overall stability of the main work area (GUI) seems improved. The clips don't jitter and jiggle as much when you slip edit the ends. Almost seems perfect. Yeah!!!!

Everything else seems to be working pretty much as expected. I'll run a session with it tonite and see how things go. In terms of just the general audio portion of the program, there don't seem to be too many changes or surprises. Shoudl be an easy upgrade for me. Hope it is for you all too.

Thanks Cake!



Larry,

Could you please try this little test shown below and let me know your results?

----------

I start a new project in Sonar 7 by going to file/new and opening the 16 track template that comes with Sonar.

I import an audio file onto track one.

I route the output of track one to Subgroup One.

When I solo Subgroup One I don't hear anything and all the meters go blank.

If I just solo the Effect Send One bus I hear audio but the meter on track one goes blank.

If I solo Effect Send One at the same time Subgroup One is soloed I then hear audio on both soloed busses and the meters remain active.

If I completely delete the Effect Send One on track one I can hear sound on subgroup 1 when it is soloed. The moment I put it back on the track Subgroup One has no sound when soloed.

This is the best I can describe the problem. As I mentioned above, I can reproduce this over and over. I hope this can be confirmed. Otherwise something is screwed up with my installation of S7.

Thanks agian for your help.

Eric


Yeah - I thought I saw someone else mention the same thing. I'll test this tomorrow but I have a feeling you've found a legit bug. I realize it's a bug and it probably affects a lot of people but it doesn't affect me as I never subgroup in Sonar. I use Creamware Scope to do all my mixing and signal routing and whatnot.

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#42
Duojet
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RE: Sonar 7: First Impressions / Bug Report 2007/09/26 20:10:19 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: krizrox

I haven't had much time to do anything meaningful but two things were obvious right away:

1) I can run in multi-processor mode now and no clicks or pops. I'm almost afraid to say it out loud but I checked performance using a large project that would have brought V6 to it's knees and it worked perfectly. Time will tell. I've been living with this problem for so long who knows. If the problem returns I'll say something but for now it looks really promising. Thanks for that!

2) The overall stability of the main work area (GUI) seems improved. The clips don't jitter and jiggle as much when you slip edit the ends. Almost seems perfect. Yeah!!!!

Everything else seems to be working pretty much as expected. I'll run a session with it tonite and see how things go. In terms of just the general audio portion of the program, there don't seem to be too many changes or surprises. Shoudl be an easy upgrade for me. Hope it is for you all too.

Thanks Cake!


wow. this is exactly the news i have been looking for. if you get a chance to expand that would be great. would be interesting to hear from cakewalk if any changes were made that might cause this.

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#43
eratu
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RE: Sonar 7: First Impressions / Bug Report 2007/09/26 20:42:46 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Jose7822

I've made another discovery by the way. It seems that what eats all the CPU cycles is having the Step Sequencer window opened. Once I close the window the CPU level in Task Manager goes down considerably. So if any one can confirm this just follow these steps:


1- Open Session Drummer 2 and route it's output to the Session Drummer 2 drum map.

2- Click on the Step Sequencer icon to open it and start creating a beat. Then, play the beat from inside the SS not Sonar.

3- Open the Task Manager to check the CPU level. Compare this to Sonar's CPU level (way different no?).

4- Now close the Step Sequencer window but leave the Task Manager open.

5- Compare the CPU levels again. Did you see the change in CPU usage in TM?


Thanks a lot!


Jose,

You are disgustingly correct. I just did your test, and Sonar's CPU meter does not display the HUGE CPU hit that an open Step Sequencer causes. If you minimize or close the SS window, then CPU levels drop back to normal levels. But when it is open, it is sucking up a vastly disproportional amount of CPU than it ever should. Amazingly, when I hit the "PAUSE" button to limit the screen redraws, then the SS doesn't draw as much CPU power again.

Now, I'll add that on my C2D CPU I can't notice the CPU hit at all if I am not using very many plugins. However, if I have a lot of plugins running, then this huge hit of the SS comes into play and it causes the weird behavior I was describing before, that you also had described. So basically, everything is fine until you are close to the CPU limits of your computer... and then opening the SS window causes all sorts of junk to happen since it goes beyond the CPU limits... and none of that is reported properly in the Sonar CPU meter.

Anyway, this is clearly a VERY unoptimized feature, and as cool as it is, I think this level of CPU use has got to constitute a bug, don't you? At a bare minimum, the CPU usage of SS should be included within the total Sonar CPU meter.... But overall, it's ridiculous how much CPU the interface takes.

Also, just to clarify on your instructions...

Step 1) should read "Open Step Sequencer..." not "Open Session Drummer..." to route its output to the Session Drummer 2 drum map. But technically even step 1 isn't needed to connect to Session Drummer since you can basically prove this with any plugin. I just verified this with z3ta, for example.

All you need to do is just insert any softsynth and then open SS, and then follow your steps.

Great job discovering that... have you had a chance to report that to Cakewalk yet?
#44
krizrox
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RE: Sonar 7: First Impressions / Bug Report 2007/09/26 20:49:36 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Duojet


ORIGINAL: krizrox

I haven't had much time to do anything meaningful but two things were obvious right away:

1) I can run in multi-processor mode now and no clicks or pops. I'm almost afraid to say it out loud but I checked performance using a large project that would have brought V6 to it's knees and it worked perfectly. Time will tell. I've been living with this problem for so long who knows. If the problem returns I'll say something but for now it looks really promising. Thanks for that!

2) The overall stability of the main work area (GUI) seems improved. The clips don't jitter and jiggle as much when you slip edit the ends. Almost seems perfect. Yeah!!!!

Everything else seems to be working pretty much as expected. I'll run a session with it tonite and see how things go. In terms of just the general audio portion of the program, there don't seem to be too many changes or surprises. Shoudl be an easy upgrade for me. Hope it is for you all too.

Thanks Cake!


wow. this is exactly the news i have been looking for. if you get a chance to expand that would be great. would be interesting to hear from cakewalk if any changes were made that might cause this.


As I said, I didn't have much time to fool around but the quick test I performed already shows improvement. The project I used was pushing 100 tracks of audio and in V6 would have started popping just by pressing play (with MP support enabled). The project played flawlessly in V7. In fact, I tried to make it hiccup by resizing windows and doing various other things and nothing. Nada. Clean as a whistle. I'm keeping my fingers crossed but it really does seem like they have imrpoved the stability of the program. If I remember correctly, they changed something to do with screen redraws (I'll have to go look again to confirm) but there was some mention of something to do with stability improvement so this might be the ticket. I'll have better news to report in after a couple of sessions.

Larry Kriz
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#45
rscain
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RE: Sonar 7: First Impressions / Bug Report 2007/09/26 21:11:23 (permalink)


Has anybody mentioned the clicks and audio stuttering that occur when adjusting parameters on the LP64 plug ins?
For instance, when I insert a node into the eq, then start to adjust it, every time I grab it with the mouse, the audio clicks and stutters until I release the node, then the audio resumes normally.

Does the same thing in the Multiband Compressor.

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#46
eratu
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RE: Sonar 7: First Impressions / Bug Report 2007/09/26 21:18:28 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: rscain



Has anybody mentioned the clicks and audio stuttering that occur when adjusting parameters on the LP64 plug ins?
For instance, when I insert a node into the eq, then start to adjust it, every time I grab it with the mouse, the audio clicks and stutters until I release the node, then the audio resumes normally.

Does the same thing in the Multiband Compressor.



Yes, this is a known issue and Noel said they will work on improving the performance of the plugin... it has to do with the fact that the plugin is very CPU-intensive and has to reset its state every time a parameter changes... or something like that. Anyway, make sure you add your voice to the chorus of people who want this improved by submitting a bug report or feature request... not sure what they will consider it. As for me, I consider it a bug. Anything that hogs that much CPU to cause state change glitches is a bug these days, in my humble opinion.
#47
rscain
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RE: Sonar 7: First Impressions / Bug Report 2007/09/26 21:39:32 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: eratu


ORIGINAL: rscain



Has anybody mentioned the clicks and audio stuttering that occur when adjusting parameters on the LP64 plug ins?
For instance, when I insert a node into the eq, then start to adjust it, every time I grab it with the mouse, the audio clicks and stutters until I release the node, then the audio resumes normally.

Does the same thing in the Multiband Compressor.



Yes, this is a known issue and Noel said they will work on improving the performance of the plugin... it has to do with the fact that the plugin is very CPU-intensive and has to reset its state every time a parameter changes... or something like that. Anyway, make sure you add your voice to the chorus of people who want this improved by submitting a bug report or feature request... not sure what they will consider it. As for me, I consider it a bug. Anything that hogs that much CPU to cause state change glitches is a bug these days, in my humble opinion.


Man! They are cpu hogs! I tried them out on a track I was mastering, I usually use Ozone 3, which when mastering a track usually puts my cpu usage at about 6%.

With the new ones it was in the 30s!!!!

ZOW!!

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#48
Jose7822
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RE: Sonar 7: First Impressions / Bug Report 2007/09/26 22:04:29 (permalink)
Eratu,

Thanks a bunch for confirming this. So far 3 people have seen this behaviour so it's gotta be a bug. I guess it was more obvious in my case due to my old Pentium D which could barely hang with just one instance of SS. It sometimes glitches the sound and the video feedback laggs behind the audio, depending on how complex the rhythm is. This is what prompted me to experiment some more with it to see what I could find.

I have informed Cakewalk about everything I've found so far, which includes another anomaly with KVM switches. For some reason, when I swicth computers using my KVM switch while audio is playing in Sonar the Audio Engine Stops playback. So again, if anyone can confirm this that would be awesome.

By the way, the steps provided by me earlier were merely one way to replicate what I was experiencing. But you are correct in saying that it doesn't have to be this way as long as there's a synth inserted in Sonar. The part about routing SD2 MIDI output to the SD2 drum map is not a necesary step but I included it anyways because it then shows the names of the drums in the Step Sequencer window (which just makes it easier to program drums for the experiment). But again, this is not necesary and can be reproduced with any synth as you have discovered.


Take care


Rscain,

This was one of the things I had encountered which I described in the beginning of this thread. Another finding is that there are no factory presets for either the LP-64 Compressor or the EQ which supposedly you can load by following these steps: http://www.cakewalk.com/support/kb/kb20070918.asp The problem with this is that only one preset loads instead of a bank of presets. I have reported this too but it wouldn't hurt if you did the same and mentioned the glitching you're experiencing when using these new plugs as well. You can do that by filling out this form:

http://www.cakewalk.com/Support/ProblemReporter/


Thanks!
post edited by Jose7822 - 2007/09/26 22:18:58
#49
Jose7822
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RE: Sonar 7: First Impressions / Bug Report 2007/09/26 22:06:41 (permalink)
double post....sorry.
post edited by Jose7822 - 2007/09/26 22:16:11
#50
Qucifer
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RE: Sonar 7: First Impressions / Bug Report 2007/09/26 22:38:54 (permalink)
Sonar 7 running well on a dual-processor, dual-core (4 cores) Xeon system (Dell Precision Workstation 690) with an RME FireFace 800.

I thought I was having issues, but everything is happy!
post edited by Qucifer - 2007/09/26 23:17:50
#51
krizrox
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RE: Sonar 7: First Impressions / Bug Report 2007/09/26 23:11:19 (permalink)
Sorry to hear about your troubles Qucifer. Seems strange that you are having the same problems I was with V6.

I installed V7 into a clean OS (I used Ghost to make myself a backup of my recording partition with everything installed and tweaked except Sonar). Maybe - as a last resort - try installing Sonar into a clean installation of your OS. See if that works.

Also you can use V6 and V7 side by side - no problem there.

btw - I just finished a two hour session and everything worked perfectly. No pops or clicks at all.

PS - I see you changed your story - cool - glad to hear it's working OK for you.
post edited by krizrox - 2007/09/26 23:21:07

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#52
Jose7822
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RE: Sonar 7: First Impressions / Bug Report 2007/09/26 23:13:22 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Qucifer

What is Cakewalk's policy with licenses for previous versions. Now that I've registered 7, am I no longer entitled to use my license fo 6?



You own the rights to use each registered version for as long as you live.

I'm kinda seeing the same issues as you but maybe not as frequently. Just make sure that you have configured S7 exactly as you have S6.


EDIT: Good for you Qucifer. I'm glad it's working for you now. Take care!
post edited by Jose7822 - 2007/09/26 23:24:59
#53
Qucifer
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RE: Sonar 7: First Impressions / Bug Report 2007/09/26 23:25:34 (permalink)
I'm embarrassed to admit that I did have a buffer size setting different between the two installations. Now, with that sorted out, everything appears to be comparable.

When I started out with issues, I headed here to see if others were experiencing anything similar. Sorry for jumping the gun! :-)
#54
Qucifer
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RE: Sonar 7: First Impressions / Bug Report 2007/09/26 23:26:39 (permalink)
So the Cakewalk folks don't mind if I run older versions simultaneously with new versions? I know other vendors annul licenses for previous versions once an upgrade has been made.
#55
Jose7822
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RE: Sonar 7: First Impressions / Bug Report 2007/09/26 23:41:14 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Qucifer

So the Cakewalk folks don't mind if I run older versions simultaneously with new versions? I know other vendors annul licenses for previous versions once an upgrade has been made.



No. They actually encourage you to have both installations until things are stable again in the new version. Then you can proceed to delete the older version if desired. Just make sure you have everything you need backed-up before doing this (like color schemes, plugin settings, instrument definitions, etc).
#56
metaprog
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RE: Sonar 7: First Impressions / Bug Report 2007/09/27 00:19:09 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Qucifer

So the Cakewalk folks don't mind if I run older versions simultaneously with new versions? I know other vendors annul licenses for previous versions once an upgrade has been made.

I've never heard of that.

In any case, the limitation with Cake is that you can't resell your program.

DAW: Studiocat Core2Duo, Asus P5K mobo, 4GB 1066Mhz WinXP2 > Sonar 5.2 PE > Lynx 1 > VXP/GT Brick
Mics: GT-66 / Guitars: Carvin DC400, Brian Moore i21.13, Ibanez JS1000, Morris W616, Rodriguez A, Takamine EG523SC-12, Peavey Fury bass
#57
cbarrett1974
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RE: Sonar 7: First Impressions / Bug Report 2007/09/27 05:34:17 (permalink)
The wierdest thing is happening now after installing Sonar 7 PE on Vista (32 bit).

The GUI's in DimPro, DimLE, SD2 and DropZone are no longer giving real-time feedback in the controls.
For example turning a pot does not visually change until the mouse is released. The tooltip that appears above the control does give feedback however, as does moving the control with a control surface.
Rapture, RaptureLE and other instruments are all OK.

I decided to keep both Sonar 6 and 7 on my XP and Vista x64 partitions, but wanted a fresh install on Vista 32. I uninstalled Sonar 6, removed shared folders and registry keys, then installed 7, and the problem appeared.
On Vista 32, I had no problems previously with DimPro or SD2.

It seems Sonar 7 has possibly updated some shared library somewhere. The problem also occurs if I use these instruments in another host (I tried them in Kore, and in Plogue Bidule).

Looks like a return to XP for now. Any ideas / similar problems anyone?
post edited by cbarrett1974 - 2007/09/27 05:44:27

[Sonar 8 PE, Dimension Pro, Rapture, Z3ta+] [FF400, Q9450, Vista x64]
#58
chipstar
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RE: Sonar 7: First Impressions / Bug Report 2007/09/27 05:44:46 (permalink)
Hey Guys,
Thanks for the insight on the Step Sequencer. This is the main reason I made the upgrade. I always liked this in Reason.

later,
Chipstar
#59
Gerry
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RE: Sonar 7: First Impressions / Bug Report 2007/09/27 05:54:03 (permalink)
After importing a project into sonar 7 which was originaly recorded in Sonar 6, 7 failed to accept the VC 64 plug ins on that project. it loaded the project and although the VC 64 could be seen it the FX box it could not be opened and even stranger it willl not allow me to open the plug in manager to rescan it.

I'm now going for a reboot, anyone else had this problem. I won't report it yet just in case I am quietly going mad.

Most strange on the reboot the VC 64 is showing as being a missing plug in and the Plug In Manager has still dissappeared. **** why did I remove 6, OK any ideas you folks?
post edited by Gerry - 2007/09/27 06:09:09

 
Those who can't dance always blame the band.
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