RonARomano


Not sure I'll ever get to determining whether or not X1 is stable on my system, which runs 8.5.3 pretty well in both 32- and 64-bit modes (thanks AGAIN to ADK for having the foresight to install both versions on this system when they built it - still can't do QT video on 64-bit thanks to Apple).

The reason I'm not likely to find out whether it's stable is that it's unusable, i.e., I simply don't have the time to completely RELEARN how to use SONAR. Even with the "legacy" key bindings, practically EVERYTHING about how I work in 8.5.3 has changed in X1.

Some things have changed yes. But not practically everything. Unfortunately there are times when things change in software. It happens with Browsers and just about every program out there goes through overhauls where the userbase has to make some adjustments. The hope is that it's worth it in the end to the user and that previous versions work in the meantime for critical or time-sensitive deliveries.

I right-click on a clip ... I can no longer get at the clip properties to do audio stretching, etc. Instead, I have no fewer than four groping mouse clicks to be sure the clip is selected, open the ProChannel window, click Clip, select the group of parameters I want to see. Huh? This is "better"?? In what way?

Stretching can be done as always by using CTRL+Drag on the edge of a clip. So instead of 1)right click 2) select properties 3) choose appropriate tab you 1) select clip 2) click "clip" in the minimized inspector 3) select Stretching.

The difference is that previously you would have had to repeat steps 1-2 (and sometimes 3) each and every time you wanted to adjust a clip. With the new methodology you would simply have to click the next clip and you'd instantly have access to those stretch parameters - without having to right-click, select properties, etc. If you keep your Inspector open, it's even shorter than the 8.5 workflow for the first clip to be edited. Also "I" quickly opens the Inspector.

So I guess that's how it's better. You don't have to repeat steps over and over again for each clip and you don't have any child windows taking up space and hogging the UI until you close them. And all of the clip data is consolidated into one place. Also the Clip inspector can actually be moved right next to your work area if dealing with the parameters of lots of clips. So I certianly think it's hard to argue that it's worse, even if one doesn't feel it's markedly better for their own particular workflow - at least initially.

I type 'C' to split an audio clip... the 'tool' I get won't split the clip - it's some sort of dipsh!t cropping tool that is indistinguishable from the normal cursor as far as I can see.

You don't' need to change tools to split a clip. Just hold ALT and click where you want to split. Viola! However, even prior to X1 I would never have changed tools to simply split a clip. I would have just placed the cursor and hit "S".

When editing in the piano roll, I type 'B' to scrub... nothing. Type 'S' to select... nothing. I can't even FIND the tool palette for this view anymore...

The TV and PRV (and all views in SONAR) share the same tool palette now. So there are no separate tools for the PRV. Why would one actually wish to change to a different tool simply because the view is different. Data is data. One tool should be able to select and cut no matter what view you're in. This is the concept of the SmartTool. It makes sense when you think about it.

Oh, WAIT... I have to un-minimize the piano roll view every frakking time I want to change tools, so that I can see the idiotic 'universal' tool palette.

Not sure what you mean. You shouldn't need to minimize or maximize anything to access your tools. And beyond that, middle-mouse click will bring up your tool palette wherever your mouse is located - in a nice transparent toolbox that closes itself automatically. But the real question is...why are you changing tools so often?

Even then, the Draw tool won't adjust the edges or other parameters of MIDI notes. What???

While I do actually think the Draw tool should be able to adjust edges I'll go ahead and ask - why are you using the Draw tool for this? You can simply use the SmartTool and it will adjust edges, move, etc...

And even if I wanted to waste my time learning the new function keys... they don't work in the piano roll.

Global function keys should work across all views. Is there something in particular that is not working for you?

Meanwhile, I'm hitting 'D' for DRAW and I see sh!t happening BEHIND the piano roll view in the track view!! WTF???!?

D is not the Draw tool anymore. It's F9. Of course you could revert to D if you desire. But "D" controls the MultoDock.

I still haven't figured out how to Scrub. I'm guessing it's in the manual somewhere... some detail that explains to me how to do something I already know how to do in 8.5.3, which I'll just have to keep using because I have work to do.

(You can hit F1 and type "Scrub" to find this info) Anyway, Scrub is "J". It's one of those we just couldn't come up with something great for. I think we thought "J=jogwheel". It's frankly no less intuitive than "B"  - and "B" controls the Browser now. It works in all views and is arguably pretty intuitive and easy to learn.

Who the hell does this kind of crap to their customer base on a new release??? Oh, I know... 'read the manual'. Guess what: I already read that (which was essentially worthless AND had to be augmented by Scott's book) when I learned to use 8.5. Now I have to start over? Sorry, I don't think so.

Things change and we have to learn and adapt if we wish to be part of that change. We always have the option of staying with what we have in order to avoid this possibility. It happens is all aspects of life and especially in technology. An application that is not allowed to change is doomed.

Piss poor job, Cakewalk. Really piss poor. This is just added motivation to get a Mac and move to MOTU Digital Performer. Either way, as a Cakewalk user since Pro-Audio 8, it pains me to say that this is most likely the very last version of any Cakewalk product I'll be spending money on.

Well that move would require work as well and I would guess a lot more adaptation than going from SONAR 8.5 to X1. And I doubt any DAW will keep everything the same for too many years so you always run a risk I guess. Over the years I've seen many DAW's go through some pretty hefty changes. And some not change when they probably should.

We provide a number of entirely free HD videos on CakeTV that we hope help users in getting to know X1. We also have a trial version and have striven to be pretty clear that X1 is somewhat of a departure/evolution for SONAR. I'm sorry you've found it so frustrating but I'd be willing to bet that if you approached it with an open mind, and some time, you might really begin to see that it was not done to punish users, but instead to help them create and work faster and more efficiently than before and to create a bright future for both SONAR and its users.

F9 to draw
alt click to instantsnip something

good tips :)

One thing that I really wish sonar had was a way to turn off the snap to grid when you held a modifier key like shift while you drew notes in the piano roll.  I have it set up so you can click caps lock to turn it on or off, but it'd be nice to just hold a button down while I adjusted the note length and then to let go and the snap settings were back on.

Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]

You don't' need to change tools to split a clip. Just hold ALT and click where you want to split. Viola! However, even prior to X1 I would never have changed tools to simply split a clip. I would have just placed the cursor and hit "S".

This one has been a pain to me tho... It's not quite that simple anymore. I still prefer to locate and use "s" to split, but now I have to click once to determine the location and then a second time to select the clip!

This has been a big pain for me since the release of X1 (and I know I've shouted it out often and loud!)

Even then, the Draw tool won't adjust the edges or other parameters of MIDI notes. What???

While I do actually think the Draw tool should be able to adjust edges I'll go ahead and ask - why are you using the Draw tool for this? You can simply use the SmartTool and it will adjust edges, move, etc...

Not all of us are happy with the smart tool in all respects... The old system gave me just as much power using all the modifier keys and programmable...

Now they're "assigned" to smarttool and yes, all the edge adjust are gone from the Draw tool... So I'm forced to work with smarttool...

And even if I wanted to waste my time learning the new function keys... they don't work in the piano roll.

HA! Don't forget that while zoom-undo has been changed from U to Alt-Z, in the PRV it is STILL U...............

My $2...........

Keni

gothic.angel

Keni


        ...We spent years working with the Cakewalk team to get the things we wanted and needed... Now we have to wait to get them back... 



Keni

...yes... a real PARADOX come true..........!

That really goes back to square one...



I've always wondered about this...since everyone and their next door neighbour seems to want to 'declutter' GUI's...we now have these thinned out GUI's which reveal little, if anything, of their various 'personalities..as it were.  Another fine example? IE9   


I am still for full customization here...you want the cleaner GUI? Fine.Got it. You want the right click menu option where it was? Fine. Got that too...


Why can it not be BOTH???   

trimph1

I've always wondered about this...since everyone and their next door neighbour seems to want to 'declutter' GUI's...we now have these thinned out GUI's which reveal little, if anything, of their various 'personalities..as it were.  Another fine example? IE9   
 

and the even more horrible firefox 4.

Keni


Cakewalk is touting X1 as being the best selling release they've had.... I find that hard to believe myself, but I've been wrong so many times...

 
 
Keni, I've seen it described subjectively as the most successful release ever, but not objectively as the 'best selling'.
 
I once asked the question in here how they defined 'successful' but got no reply. Using a word like 'successful' without qualifying its usage is just meaningless ad-speak in my opinion.
 
However, branded as 'X1' it may have shifted more units than before as X1 Essentials is effectively the replacement for SONAR Home Studio and will have been included in the figures I guess.
 
 
 

John T

Keni


It seems to me that many people are so enamored of the particular new feature(s) they like they resist thinking about the many things they've lost... Or they never used them to begin with?

It seems to me that this forum would be a much better place if certain people would abandon these frankly insulting kinds of positions. People who like X1 are self-deluding idiots; people who like X1 are all clueless newbies; people who like X1 are amateurs; and on and on.

The fact of the matter is that some people like X1, and some don't. And both camps contain everything from long term Sonar using audio professionals down to new-to-recording hobbyists, and every possible flavour in between.

That's a fact. And to ignore that fact when having these discussions is to begin with the assumption that anyone not sharing your complaints is an idiot. It's just bad manners.

I do think that a person who uses every square inch of a DAW and bleeds it till screams, is a lot different than someone who simply plugs in his guitar and mic, plays and sings along to a pre-fab midi loop, adjusts the volumes a little, exports, and calls it done.


The idea that one is better or worse than the other is not relevant. Because, neither IS better or worse. They just simply have different needs and wants. I don't see Keni's post as insulting. He was expressing what he thought, and, I see the word 'enamored' as non-insulting. And, in no way did the word 'idiot' appear till you typed it. 

timidi

John T

Keni


It seems to me that many people are so enamored of the particular new feature(s) they like they resist thinking about the many things they've lost... Or they never used them to begin with?

It seems to me that this forum would be a much better place if certain people would abandon these frankly insulting kinds of positions. People who like X1 are self-deluding idiots; people who like X1 are all clueless newbies; people who like X1 are amateurs; and on and on.

The fact of the matter is that some people like X1, and some don't. And both camps contain everything from long term Sonar using audio professionals down to new-to-recording hobbyists, and every possible flavour in between.

That's a fact. And to ignore that fact when having these discussions is to begin with the assumption that anyone not sharing your complaints is an idiot. It's just bad manners.

I do think that a person who uses every square inch of a DAW and bleeds it till screams, is a lot different than someone who simply plugs in his guitar and mic, plays and sings along to a pre-fab midi loop, adjusts the volumes a little, exports, and calls it done.

Absolutely. But there are quite clearly people like that on both sides of the debate.

John T

You see, this is what I'm talking about. I think there are almost zero "fanbois" on this forum.

Yeah, I miss John too.
 
 

I'm a long time Sonar user and am taking my time to get into X1. There are to many missing features and bugs to waste time on serious projects, because I know that in it's present state X1 won't work no matter how much time I put into learning the new methods.

Yet in my leisure time, I'm having a good time exploring the improvements and capabilities of X1 and am becoming more and more impressed. I long for the fabled X1c, hoping that will address the lost features and user customization that's sorely needed. I've printed out a lot of tips even from this thread that will make the final transition easier.

Maybe I'm an optimist but I feel pretty confident Cakewalk is listening and will address these problems.

jsg

gmp


I'm a long time Sonar user and am taking my time to get into X1. There are to many missing features and bugs to waste time on serious projects, because I know that in it's present state X1 won't work no matter how much time I put into learning the new methods.

Yet in my leisure time, I'm having a good time exploring the improvements and capabilities of X1 and am becoming more and more impressed. I long for the fabled X1c, hoping that will address the lost features and user customization that's sorely needed. I've printed out a lot of tips even from this thread that will make the final transition easier.

Maybe I'm an optimist but I feel pretty confident Cakewalk is listening and will address these problems.

I hope you are right.  I too am a pro musician and started using Cakewalk for DOS in 1991.  I've upgraded regularly all through Pro Audio and Sonar (stopped at Sonar 7 because it is so stable for me).  The only reason I would need X1 is because I want to run a new choir library that needs more RAM than WinXP supports, hence the upgrade to Windows 7, and, by necessity, X1.  I have been planning this upgrade for almost 6 months now but every time I go online or do Google searches, I realize there are just too many problems with X1.  The downloadable X1 demo has many graphics display bugs, I tested it on two entirely different systems, different OS, etc. and it was discouraging to say the least.   I don't mind the ergonomic changes, I like the way it looks, some changes may even be improvements.  It's the crashes, the graphic bugs and the other bugs that seem so pervasive.  I am hoping X1c gets it right.  For my money, its stability, stability stability--this trumps new features any day.  In fact, almost every new feature Sonar has introduced in the past 5 years or so I simply do not use--and, I write complex orchestral works using many tracks, and softsynths.  So, time will tell.  Either X1c will be stable and usable in an all-day, everyday scenario (for me, I am sure others who work differently have a different experience) or I just won't upgrade. 

Jerry Gerber
www.jerrygerber.com/fivepiecesforvi1.htm

Hey Jerry. I remember you especially many years ago, when you posted more. I wonder if you can still buy 8.5 or 8.0? I found 8.31 even more stable than 8.53. If stability is your thing, man you need to wait until the consensus is out for X1c. Just today I hit "new" to start a new project in X1 and got a crash. Boy is that pathetic!

Like you I've used all the products since DOS 1992. You beat me by one year! If you need to go to Win7, put your seatbelts on and take lots of time to get accustomed to it and use a dual boot system until you get things working right in Win7.  I've spent hours getting it to do what XP can do. I can't use Win7 until Layla 24 gets a decent driver.

You may even find that putting your choir on a separate computer might be easier. I use Vienna Instruments and they have a cool interface program that enables you to easily use several computers bypassing the usual confusion that brings.

gmp

jsg

gmp


I'm a long time Sonar user and am taking my time to get into X1. There are to many missing features and bugs to waste time on serious projects, because I know that in it's present state X1 won't work no matter how much time I put into learning the new methods.

Yet in my leisure time, I'm having a good time exploring the improvements and capabilities of X1 and am becoming more and more impressed. I long for the fabled X1c, hoping that will address the lost features and user customization that's sorely needed. I've printed out a lot of tips even from this thread that will make the final transition easier.

Maybe I'm an optimist but I feel pretty confident Cakewalk is listening and will address these problems.

I hope you are right.  I too am a pro musician and started using Cakewalk for DOS in 1991.  I've upgraded regularly all through Pro Audio and Sonar (stopped at Sonar 7 because it is so stable for me).  The only reason I would need X1 is because I want to run a new choir library that needs more RAM than WinXP supports, hence the upgrade to Windows 7, and, by necessity, X1.  I have been planning this upgrade for almost 6 months now but every time I go online or do Google searches, I realize there are just too many problems with X1.  The downloadable X1 demo has many graphics display bugs, I tested it on two entirely different systems, different OS, etc. and it was discouraging to say the least.   I don't mind the ergonomic changes, I like the way it looks, some changes may even be improvements.  It's the crashes, the graphic bugs and the other bugs that seem so pervasive.  I am hoping X1c gets it right.  For my money, its stability, stability stability--this trumps new features any day.  In fact, almost every new feature Sonar has introduced in the past 5 years or so I simply do not use--and, I write complex orchestral works using many tracks, and softsynths.  So, time will tell.  Either X1c will be stable and usable in an all-day, everyday scenario (for me, I am sure others who work differently have a different experience) or I just won't upgrade. 

Jerry Gerber
www.jerrygerber.com/fivepiecesforvi1.htm

Hey Jerry. I remember you especially many years ago, when you posted more. I wonder if you can still buy 8.5 or 8.0? I found 8.31 even more stable than 8.53. If stability is your thing, man you need to wait until the consensus is out for X1c. Just today I hit "new" to start a new project in X1 and got a crash. Boy is that pathetic!

Like you I've used all the products since DOS 1992. You beat me by one year! If you need to go to Win7, put your seatbelts on and take lots of time to get accustomed to it and use a dual boot system until you get things working right in Win7.  I've spent hours getting it to do what XP can do. I can't use Win7 until Layla 24 gets a decent driver.

You may even find that putting your choir on a separate computer might be easier. I use Vienna Instruments and they have a cool interface program that enables you to easily use several computers bypassing the usual confusion that brings.

Hi Gerry,

I remember you too, and you're right, I rarely post unless I am getting ready to make a software change, then I post often.   I already use Win 7 64 bit on the dedicated computer that runs the VSL symphonic cube (24 GB!) so I know my way around it.  I actually like Win 7 a lot, totally stable with Vienna Ensemble Pro on a dedicated machine.  I have been thinking about a dedicated machine for the new choir but then I am managing three computers again in my studio, and I would prefer only two.  If Cakewalk would make X1 stable, with 16 GB and an i7 chip it is certainly feasible to run the choir on my DAW.  I think the bottleneck now is X1.  We will see what happens next month.   If 1c doesn't do it, then I will definitely consider a dedicated machine to run the choir...

Best,
Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com

Notecrusher


I do all my work in the track view ever since the inline PRV was added. That remains one of my favorite improvements ever. Does X1 require you to use the inspector or the console view? Because if so that would destroy my workflow.

The inline PRV is still the same. I do most of my work in the Track View and have never needed the Console View. I still like the midi staff view and the regular piano roll view. The only reason you would need the inspector is to turn on and adjust ProChannel FX. Once they're on you can hit "I" and minimize the inspector and go merrily along.

Bub

Hi Ron,

One thing that helped me with X1 was, I downloaded the PDF version of the manual. It's much easier to search for keywords in the PDF than the F1 help file IMO. It's called the X1 Reference Guide in the download section for X1 Support IIRC.

Thanks Bub - if/when I get back to slogging through X1 I'll definitely try this rather than F1.

cheers!