Bub 
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Re:Sonar X1 - Where are we?
2011/07/13 23:51:10
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Hey, at least you have a mini dump! That's actually good news. You can send it to Cakewalk via the Problem Reporter and they can tell you exactly what caused it, and if it was something in X1 they can hopefully fix it in a future patch. Here's a link to the Problem Reporter. http://www.cakewalk.com/support/contact/problemreport.aspx
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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bitflipper
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Re:Sonar X1 - Where are we?
2011/07/14 00:19:20
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I see Ron has posted 8 times since 2009, and 3 of those posts are in this thread.
Brandon, you know you have an uphill climb when even the quiet ones start coming forward to speak their minds...I don't envy your job, my friend.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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backwoods
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Re:Sonar X1 - Where are we?
2011/07/14 01:05:27
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I don't see that it's fair to say coming from 8.5 to X1 is equivalent to learning a new DAW. There are numerous shared conventions. Most of the terminology is the same, most of the features are in the same place. If people can't work it out after 6 months I feel sorry for them- even if they are hardcore-longterm-poweruser (or however they like to term themselves) dudes.
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jsg
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Re:Sonar X1 - Where are we?
2011/07/14 01:10:20
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RonARomano
Pure comedy...
On Bub's suggestion, I pulled up the 1850-page PDF to look for a few simple things. The very first thing I tried - typing 'C' to show/hide the Control Bar - yielded this:
It's consistent.
Hard to make this stuff up.
This may or may not have something to do with your crash, but I noticed on your error message that Sonar is installed on the E: drive!?! Might this be part of your problem? Why is it not installed on the C: drive? Best, Jerry Gerber www.jerrygerber.com
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jm24
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Re:Sonar X1 - Where are we?
2011/07/14 09:40:33
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Sonar is installed on the E: drive!?! Might this be part of your problem?
If so, CW has some splainin to do.
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pianodano
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Re:Sonar X1 - Where are we?
2011/07/14 10:03:21
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RonARomano
Hi Brandon,
I'm sensitive to your position and appreciate your feedback. But I can't help noting that after you stated "not practically everything" has changed, you went on to list how everything I noted... has changed. That was my point: the way I've gotten used to working in SONAR has indeed changed in almost every respect.
What I don't get is why there's no way to just say "load the old command set" and keep working as I had been... like loading the legacy key bindings (which really only load SOME of the legacy key bindings, not all of them, like the ones I noted). Without that, I'm forced now to go back and learn all the "better" (?) ways to do what I already knew how to do, quickly, in 8.5.3. Sure, I could have spent a weekend or longer getting up to speed on the new interface... oh... wait... no, I actually didn't have time for that when I downloaded and installed X1, which is why I immediately abandoned it. I will say that I'm very grateful Cakewalk doesn't require uninstallation of the previous version, like some products. Genuinely: thanks for that! Beyond that, I guess it wouldn't have been very good marketing to post prominent warnings about how "X1 will require you to basically re-learn SONAR", but that's what it comes down to and there's simply no denying it.
All of this "why do you do X that way?", etc., in the previous posts, is simply irrelevant. I've come to use SONAR in a way that made sense to me. That's part of what made it handy and, ultimately, useful. But now in one fell swoop all that has changed and every time I want to do something I used to be able to do quickly, I have to go pawing through a manual, or pressing F1 and wading through the index only to find, more often than not, that the thing I'm looking for isn't indexed. I guess what it comes down to is this: functionally, X1 isn't noticeably superior to 8.5.3 for my purposes (sequencing orchestral scores using sampling synths, recording audio, mixing, mastering, etc. - I don't just "plug in a guitar and mic and go"). So there's simply very little if any motivation to re-learn the new interface and (slowly, painfully) re-configure the U/I, where that's possible, to conform to the way I'm already happily working in the older version.
So at this point there's not much downside at all to switching to a different product. If I stick with X1, by definition, I'm learning a different product. I can guarantee I'm not the only formerly happy customer who feels this way, either.
FWIW,
RR
+1
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jm24
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Re:Sonar X1 - Where are we?
2011/07/14 12:51:58
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Some general ramblings and observations:
Brandon keeps telling us "things change, get with the program."
New Coke was just plain wrong. It tasted like Pepsi. It tested well with the Pepsi drinkers, the new target market. All us longtime users, us oldsters complained loudly. (note: to turn Coke into Pepsi: open the Coke bottle, replace top, leave in frig overnight.)
The rule in advertising is to "never let the graphics people design anything." Why? Cuz they will make stuff look great but difficult to read/use.
Wired magazine was a great example of this. A split page with Red on silver, and silver on red. Mostly unreadable. More attention to the tool. The information has less impact because of the presentation.
As mentioned, IE9 is a good example of changing just to change, with the result of reducing functionality. In a browser, nearly ALL activity begins on the left of the screen/window: title bar, address box (typing), find, menu bar, favorites bar,... Yet, because a blank space was created at the top right of the screen when it was clear a search box was no longer needed, some graphics person attempted to balance the screen moving the home, favorites, refresh, and the stop buttons into this space. More eye/mouse movement away from where most user input activity occurs. Not good user design. Great graphics balance:::: LESS CLUTTER.
Amazing how many times I have seen programmers make their screens balanced to learn the placement of many items makes no sense for users.
When the coding for tabbed windows became available functionality went into the crapper. Programmers were excited to have a new toy. Managers could point to how progressive they were. And what used to be on one screen was placed on four. The move to the Ribbon-command bar by MS, CW, and others is similar. A new toy. An easy way to address the use of larger monitors. (Not so good for laptops and tablets, don't ya know.)
===============================
If all the same functionality is under the hood there is no reason to not have the old and the new interfaces. Even MS has taken years to fully implement/transition to the "ribbon-command-bar" stupidity in MS Office. And they still provide a button bar, and a FULL programming language, to make up for the non-configurable, multi-click, space wasting, ribbon-command bar. But even so, many of the buttons have become non-toggle single purpose, or menus with all the choices all the time. Good for new users to learn what is possible. Not good power-user design. Extra work, and attention to the tool.
How is it that looking away from the location of work improves speed of use? How can anyone justify that Right-click context menus are not faster than using the inspector, and the ribbon?
40+ years of user interface design research, and 10 years of Sonar interface code, seems have been abandoned without clear reasoning.
=======================
I understand the new FUI is great for those who work the way it is designed to work. (And good for new users.) But how could Brandon's repeated urgings that the smart tool's default functions be configurable not be considered? This guy is one of the company's most visible users. He prolly has more direct interaction with users than anyone else. So when he says that having to hold a modifier key to use the DRAW tool, or that when the draw tool is selected it cannot do anything else, is NOT GOOD, why was he not listened to????????
======================
The transition to the new FUI has been a management fiasco. How is it the managers did not anticipate the reaction to reduced configurability? TO more clicking, more menus, moving menus, "hidden" buttons?
Sonar now looks like a bunch of the hardware synths from the past few years with lots of grey plastic, an LCD screen, and a few buttons that display way too many menus. Clever, non-cluttered, difficult to use, and time consuming.
It is not that I cannot learn new stuff. I have no choice but to learn to use 2 buttons for displaying/not displaying the Outlook 2010 reader pane. But it is not possible for anyone to justify to me how it is that 2 buttons are better than 1 toggle button.
For me Sonar has become one of the non-coke cola drinks: too sweet, without that special something it used to have: total configurability.
===========================
General thoughts:
The complainers are the MOST important customers a business/organization have. They usually buy more products, and are more likely to recommend the business's products and services to others. They are often the first adopters, and therefore have more experience with a product/service than the majority of customers/users. The best managed organizations on the planet know they are the most invested of customer stakeholders and their feedback is an essential asset of the organization.
Profits are directly related to costs which are determined by transactions. It is better to sell 50k items at $200 than 100k items for $100. Had CW managers decided to work another 6 months before releasing SX1 (with menus, button bars,...) they could have gotten $200+ from me, instead of just $100, and my disappointment.
Increasing market share:
One of the fastest, and least expensive, ways to increase market share is to provide a clear quick way to transfer licenses. CW could charge a transfer fee ($25 per product) which will essentially be all profit. Nearly all the software business logic is already in place. Products that have been used for upgrades are not eligible, only forum support,.... This is how Intuit got as big as it did, as fast as it did. And they did not charge for the transfer. (They have become large and stupid of late). The assumption that license transfer would reduce sales of new items is just plain wrong.
Also CW could offer previous versions as downloadable freeware/shareware.
Both of these approaches will increase the user base, add many names to the marketing lists, tie-in users to the CW way, and reduce piracy, and reduce the need to offer cross-grade pricing. (I think of cross-grade pricing as an insult to those of us who paid full price, many times.)
Moving to a yearly license/support fee, instead of a version fee, is best for all: no Christmas season deadlines, customers can buy at any time knowing they will receive full service for a clear period of time, no need for 2-for-1 specials, cash flow for CW will improve, marketing hyperbole costs will be reduced, improvements need not be version based and can be released when actually ready,...
(My sources: hundreds of books about business/organization management and review, hundreds of articles, dozens of seminars, dozens of surveys, 40 years of observing, and participation in, management activities.)
====================
CW (Roland) could be more involved with forming user groups, and user training: Send a couple of CW dudes to Lansing, Michigan for a week, present a number of seminars and workshops, charge a fee. Within 2 hours drive of Lansing are about 7+ million people. We haven't had a visit in about 5 years. Chicago is 5 hours each way. A little too much for a 2 hour overview.
Have Craig Anderton, and other "celebrities" participate. Topics: Sonar, Instruments, hardware, techniques,... Provide the best examples of how-to on paper and disk. Hold it on the MSU campus during a break in classes. East Lansing is across the street. Downtown Lansing is less than 2 miles. Involve local music retailers, Music magazines, websites, plugin developers, interface vendors. Tape it all and sell the DVDs.
A 4+ day event will attract those who will make the 5 hour trip from Chicago, Cleveland, Indianapolis,...
The Lansing/East Lansing Visitor/Convention bureaus are very helpful.
J
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John T
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Re:Sonar X1 - Where are we?
2011/07/14 12:59:53
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Ah, yes, New Coke. An excellent analogy. From Wikipedia. Early acceptance The company, as it had planned, introduced the new formula with big marketing pushes in New York (workers renovating the Statue of Liberty were symbolically the first Americans given cans to take home [20]) and Washington, D.C. (where thousands of free cans were given away in Lafayette Park). Sales figures from those cities, and other regions where it had been introduced, showed a reaction that went as the market research had predicted. In fact, Coke's sales were up 8% over the same period the year before. [21] Most Coke drinkers resumed buying the new drink at much the same level as they had the old one. Surveys indicated, in fact, that a majority liked the new flavoring. [22] Three-quarters of the respondents said they would buy New Coke again. [21] The big test, however, remained in the Southeast, where Coke was first bottled and tasted. [edit] Backlash Despite New Coke's acceptance with a large number of Coca-Cola drinkers, a vocal minority of them resented the change in formula and were not shy about making that known — again just as had happened in the focus groups. [23] Many of these drinkers were Southerners, some of whom considered the drink a fundamental part of regional identity. They viewed the company's decision to change the formula through the prism of the Civil War, as another surrender to the " Yankees". [23] Company headquarters in Atlanta started receiving letters expressing anger or deep disappointment. Over 400,000 calls and letters were received by the company. [19] A psychiatrist Coke hired to listen in on phone calls to the company hotline, 1-800-GET-COKE , told executives some people sounded as if they were discussing the death of a family member. [24]
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PenguiN42
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Re:Sonar X1 - Where are we?
2011/07/14 13:44:18
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So DAW preference is like cola taste now?  I think a better analogy is Windows XP -> Windows Vista. There were HUGE fundamental changes, most of which were on paper an improvement, but there were so many overlooked areas and quirks that it ended up pissing off/alienating a lot of customers. However MS then followed up with Windows 7, which is basically "Vista done right" and IMO it's the best OS they've ever done. Here's hoping Cakewalk moves in the same direction with X1c/X2.
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lfm
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Re:Sonar X1 - Where are we?
2011/07/14 14:37:48
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John T
Ah, yes, New Coke. An excellent analogy.
From Wikipedia.
Early acceptance The company, as it had planned, introduced the new formula with big marketing pushes in New York (workers renovating the Statue of Liberty were symbolically the first Americans given cans to take home[20]) and Washington, D.C. (where thousands of free cans were given away in Lafayette Park). Sales figures from those cities, and other regions where it had been introduced, showed a reaction that went as the market research had predicted. In fact, Coke's sales were up 8% over the same period the year before.[21]
Most Coke drinkers resumed buying the new drink at much the same level as they had the old one. Surveys indicated, in fact, that a majority liked the new flavoring.[22] Three-quarters of the respondents said they would buy New Coke again.[21] The big test, however, remained in the Southeast, where Coke was first bottled and tasted.
[edit] Backlash Despite New Coke's acceptance with a large number of Coca-Cola drinkers, a vocal minority of them resented the change in formula and were not shy about making that known — again just as had happened in the focus groups.[23]
Many of these drinkers were Southerners, some of whom considered the drink a fundamental part of regional identity. They viewed the company's decision to change the formula through the prism of the Civil War, as another surrender to the "Yankees".[23] Company headquarters in Atlanta started receiving letters expressing anger or deep disappointment. Over 400,000 calls and letters were received by the company.[19] A psychiatrist Coke hired to listen in on phone calls to the company hotline, 1-800-GET-COKE , told executives some people sounded as if they were discussing the death of a family member.[24]
I have suggested that a number of times by now: Continue old 8.x-series as Sonar Classic aside with Sonar X1. The Coca-Cola-trick! And everybody is happy. 
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SteveStrummerUK
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Re:Sonar X1 - Where are we?
2011/07/14 14:43:15
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@ jm24
Excellent post (#337 above), well thought out and measured - you talk a lot of sense.
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Bub
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Re:Sonar X1 - Where are we?
2011/07/14 14:45:42
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"some people sounded as if they were discussing the death of a family member."
How long do you think before X1 starts receiving death threats? LOL!
post edited by Bub - 2011/07/14 14:47:28
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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jm24
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Re:Sonar X1 - Where are we?
2011/07/14 14:55:06
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The point of the New Coke example is the market was/is full of Pepsi taste-alikes; RC, Faygo, Kroger, Meijer,...
Old Coke was/is unique. To make it like what was/is available from other vendors makes it an also-ran.
Making Sonar more like the other grey apps that already exist reduces Sonar's uniqueness. Which was nearly total configurability, and accessibility.
J
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gmp
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Re:Sonar X1 - Where are we?
2011/07/14 15:12:16
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jm24
The point of the New Coke example is the market was/is full of Pepsi taste-alikes; RC, Faygo, Kroger, Meijer,...
Old Coke was/is unique. To make it like what was/is available from other vendors makes it an also-ran.
Making Sonar more like the other grey apps that already exist reduces Sonar's uniqueness. Which was nearly total configurability, and accessibility.
J
"grey apps " I agree. One of the first things I tired to do was improve those god awful colors. I tried to import my 8.5 colors and some of it worked and some didn't. There also seems to be diminished ability to even work with the colors. Although I hope this is the last thing they fix, after they first give us back all the lost features, and fix the bugs and crashes. They certainly have their plate full. This almost seems like too much for an X1c, I wouldn't at all be surprised if they have to give us an X1d.
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Bub
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Re:Sonar X1 - Where are we?
2011/07/14 15:18:54
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jm24
The point of the New Coke example is the market was/is full of Pepsi taste-alikes; RC, Faygo, Kroger, Meijer,...
RC, Faygo are not taste-alike's my friend. :) I can't gag that crap down. Old Coke was/is unique.
Nobody here in the US has tasted what Coke really tastes like in a very long time. Any other soft drink either for that matter. It hasn't tasted the same since they stopped using cane sugar. They still make it with cane sugar in other countries, just not here. Making Sonar more like the other grey apps that already exist reduces Sonar's uniqueness. Which was nearly total configurability, and accessibility.
You are 100% right. If they don't bring back some kind of customizable tool module for the existing 'tool bar' I think they'll be sorry. Or not ... who knows. I was told the other day that I should just use Shift + F or F to resize my screen, but it's so hard when you are the musician and the recording engineer and you have to fiddle with two hands while you have a guitar strapped on you and you're trying not to lose your position in front of your mic. It sucks! I could just use my free hand and do everything with a click of the mouse in 8.5 and prior.
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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sykodelic
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Re:Sonar X1 - Where are we?
2011/07/14 17:02:05
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Nobody here in the US has tasted what Coke really tastes like in a very long time. Any other soft drink either for that matter. It hasn't tasted the same since they stopped using cane sugar. They still make it with cane sugar in other countries, just not here.
I don't know what state you live in but pepsi and mountain dew make throwbacks I buy all the time made with sugar cane.
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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Re:Sonar X1 - Where are we?
2011/07/14 17:10:04
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You can find cane sugar Coke here in Southern California.
Hecho en Mexico mis amigos!!!
I do kind of prefer the taste with cane sugar.
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Keni
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Re:Sonar X1 - Where are we?
2011/07/14 17:18:51
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SteveStrummerUK
Keni
Cakewalk is touting X1 as being the best selling release they've had.... I find that hard to believe myself, but I've been wrong so many times...
Keni, I've seen it described subjectively as the most successful release ever, but not objectively as the 'best selling'.
I once asked the question in here how they defined 'successful' but got no reply. Using a word like 'successful' without qualifying its usage is just meaningless ad-speak in my opinion.
However, branded as 'X1' it may have shifted more units than before as X1 Essentials is effectively the replacement for SONAR Home Studio and will have been included in the figures I guess.
Hi Steve... Thanks for pointing that out. I do recall seeing those words when I read the info and you're right. I took it to mean more sales, but it's probably not and simply a ploy to make it sound more important and gain more sales... I seem to see more people waiting than ever before. There have always been some who wait (smart) until the reports and 1st bugs are in... But this time I see far more mention of such position.... So here's hoping that the next release cleans up enuf of these issues so that I can apologize for my loss of faith... ;-) Keni
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Keni
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Re:Sonar X1 - Where are we?
2011/07/14 17:27:41
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timidi
John T
Keni
It seems to me that many people are so enamored of the particular new feature(s) they like they resist thinking about the many things they've lost... Or they never used them to begin with?
It seems to me that this forum would be a much better place if certain people would abandon these frankly insulting kinds of positions. People who like X1 are self-deluding idiots; people who like X1 are all clueless newbies; people who like X1 are amateurs; and on and on.
The fact of the matter is that some people like X1, and some don't. And both camps contain everything from long term Sonar using audio professionals down to new-to-recording hobbyists, and every possible flavour in between.
That's a fact. And to ignore that fact when having these discussions is to begin with the assumption that anyone not sharing your complaints is an idiot. It's just bad manners.
I do think that a person who uses every square inch of a DAW and bleeds it till screams, is a lot different than someone who simply plugs in his guitar and mic, plays and sings along to a pre-fab midi loop, adjusts the volumes a little, exports, and calls it done.
The idea that one is better or worse than the other is not relevant. Because, neither IS better or worse. They just simply have different needs and wants. I don't see Keni's post as insulting. He was expressing what he thought, and, I see the word 'enamored' as non-insulting. And, in no way did the word 'idiot' appear till you typed it.
Thanks timidi... I truly was trying to be thoughtful and not insult anyone. I really don't claim any of my needs/desires to be any better or more important than anyone else's and I certainly do not qualify anyone's work by their' methods... All the opposite. I applaud independent thinking and Sonar has continued to build more portential for all kinds of users over the years. Never simply catering to any one type of use... or user. I feel (note that I don't "claim") that this is now changing as we are being given toolsets that work in more singular ways. By that I mean you must open/close various views as tools are no longer available everywhere... Case in point the differences between track controls and track inspector controls... I've spent a lot of my time talking with the cakewalk users and Bakers in the journey of Sonar and I feel as tho much of it was just thrown away... or at least discarded for an unknown period of time... I believe we will see most if not all of these things brought back but it will take years at the pace it appears to be happening... My humble apologies to anyone who felt offended. None of my remarks are pointed at anyone or their ideas.... Just between me and Cakewalk and any who feel akin to some of these issues... Keni
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Rodab
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Re:Sonar X1 - Where are we?
2011/07/14 17:29:38
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I personally don't understand what you guys find so hard to figure out about X1. I come from a completely different DAW, with a completely different layout, different key commands, workflow, and mindset and managed to pick up Sonar's workflow within a day or two. Not hard at all.
But I guess I can understand if you are a longtime user being resistant to change. Change is one thing that brought me here. However, change has never made something hard for me to learn. It's just a matter of if I like the changes or not and if Im willing to accept the changes.
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bitflipper
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Re:Sonar X1 - Where are we?
2011/07/14 17:31:15
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jm24, re: post 337: my vote for the best post of the week!
BTW, you can buy Mexican Coke (the liquid kind!) at many Mexican and some oriental grocery stores in the West and Southwest. As near as I can tell, it tastes pretty close (just a little sweeter) to the Coca Cola I grew up with when it cost a nickel and came in a glass bottle. The Mexican Coke comes in glass, too, which is an added bonus.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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SteveStrummerUK
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Re:Sonar X1 - Where are we?
2011/07/14 17:32:51
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Keni
SteveStrummerUK
Keni
Cakewalk is touting X1 as being the best selling release they've had.... I find that hard to believe myself, but I've been wrong so many times...
Keni, I've seen it described subjectively as the most successful release ever, but not objectively as the 'best selling'.
I once asked the question in here how they defined 'successful' but got no reply. Using a word like 'successful' without qualifying its usage is just meaningless ad-speak in my opinion.
However, branded as 'X1' it may have shifted more units than before as X1 Essentials is effectively the replacement for SONAR Home Studio and will have been included in the figures I guess.
Hi Steve...
Thanks for pointing that out. I do recall seeing those words when I read the info and you're right. I took it to mean more sales, but it's probably not and simply a ploy to make it sound more important and gain more sales... I seem to see more people waiting than ever before. There have always been some who wait (smart) until the reports and 1st bugs are in... But this time I see far more mention of such position....
So here's hoping that the next release cleans up enuf of these issues so that I can apologize for my loss of faith... ;-)
Keni
He he, I see Brandon's about - he might care to tell us how Cakewalk define "successful" in the context it was used.
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pianodano
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Re:Sonar X1 - Where are we?
2011/07/14 17:40:35
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I have XI (it is eleven and the year is half over already so maybe XI will go away) at my place but I have no use for it as long as it retains the qwerty intensive daw it has now become. The beauty of previous versions of Sonar was that, for the most part, I never needed to take my hands off of the controller or mouse and just about anything was possible without ever touching the qwerty and was just a few mouse clicks away and usually fully context sensitive; eg: to add a envelope, RC anywhere on a clip< envelope >volumne. I'll bet I am not the only one that avoids the qwerty as much as possible and prefers to spend time recording rather that reading a 1850 page manual. It is just nuts to think that people that have been using this program in it's various iterations for many years should be expected to start all over and now learn a new generation's ideas of what they think a daw is supposed to be. Many of us have spent not hundreds, but thousands of hours using Sonar. Cakewalk has made a grave strategic error in thinking we will just jump on the bandwagon without kicking and screaming.
Reading this has thread has convinced me yet again that Cakewalk has miscalculated what many in their user base want in a DAW and now that the thread seems to have run it's course, I can add my thoughts. Sorry in advance if anyone gets their feelings hurt or is offended.
Some of us (or at least I should say people that I know) have spent their lifetimes recording music and own many pieces of outboard equipment, consoles, fine convertors, etc and have little or no use for the latest wizbang that Cakewalk may decide is now necessary to convince the new user making their first DAW software decision that he or she can capture the million dollar studio sound using a store bought laptop and Sonar. That is contrary to what has always been true about recording. Fine equipment is expensive. Hanging on for years in the hope that Sonar would eventually become bug free was somewhat expensive too.
I think that in the end, what has now been done to Sonar will come back to bite Cakewalk. Maybe they have already made the decision to write off the many of their loyal and established long time users knowing full well that some of us would reject such radical changes to a program that they have used for years. As I stated previously, many of us have spent not just hundreds, but thousands of hours with Sonar and have become very confortable with it's look, layout and proefficient with it. Personally, as one of those longtime users, after purchasing XI and seeing for myself just how radical it is, I see nothing at all worthwhile or compelling enough to make the investment in time required to re-learn or adapt to it and start on a new long path of upgrade hopes for a bug free DAW.
8.5 alone was a big enough change for me. My constant reason for upgrading time after time, all these years, was the sincere hope that Cakewalk's programmers would finally fix this or that bug of defect. Unfortunately, their sales strategy has always been to introduce new "features" some of which would invaribly break something else that had been working beautifully before. This new complete break with tradition which has been demonstrated by XI has finally convinced me that my hopes over all those years of Cakewalk finally perfecting Sonar, were in vain and that my trust that they would someday at long last make the program right and bug free were misplaced. It is now apparent to me that they have never had a goal of eventually creating a bug free DAW. What a shame that they have not realized that they had at least two types of users of Sonar, one group which would have been very happy to keep it as it was, just fix the bugs. Had it required a subscription fee to do so, I would have gladly signed up.
Best, Danny Core I7, win XP pro, 3 gig ram, 3 drives- Lynx Aurora firewire- Roll around 27 inch monitor, 42 inch console monitor- Motif xs controller - Networked P4's and FX Teleport for samples- Muse Receptor VIA Uniwire for samples and plugs- UAD QUAD Neve - UAD 1- Sonar X1 but favor 8.5 GUI - Toft ATB 32 - Vintage hardware - Tascam MS-16 synched via Timeline Microlynx -Toft ATB32 console
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Keni
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Re:Sonar X1 - Where are we?
2011/07/14 17:46:37
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gmp
jm24
The point of the New Coke example is the market was/is full of Pepsi taste-alikes; RC, Faygo, Kroger, Meijer,...
Old Coke was/is unique. To make it like what was/is available from other vendors makes it an also-ran.
Making Sonar more like the other grey apps that already exist reduces Sonar's uniqueness. Which was nearly total configurability, and accessibility.
J
"grey apps "
I agree. One of the first things I tired to do was improve those god awful colors. I tried to import my 8.5 colors and some of it worked and some didn't. There also seems to be diminished ability to even work with the colors. Although I hope this is the last thing they fix, after they first give us back all the lost features, and fix the bugs and crashes.
They certainly have their plate full. This almost seems like too much for an X1c, I wouldn't at all be surprised if they have to give us an X1d.
I agree 100% and for the record, I've been using a slightly modified version of panup's "Orfeus Mod" which made the colors a lot more bearable as well as changed a few items I found difficult... such as the snap by/to not being displayed? Panup's shows whihc is currently active.... and the Automation Record button now as "R" kept throwing me off... Panup changed that to "RD" (edited) as it used to be and changed the record arm button from the dot to "R" as previously used.... Small issues, but changing them sure helped make X1 a little more comfortable... Then with benstat's new Sonar Skinner (currently still in beta I believe), I tweaked one or two more color items not available thru Sonar's color controls (currently)... Keni
post edited by Keni - 2011/07/14 21:11:35
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Keni
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Re:Sonar X1 - Where are we?
2011/07/14 17:50:50
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Bub
I was told the other day that I should just use Shift + F or F to resize my screen, but it's so hard when you are the musician and the recording engineer and you have to fiddle with two hands while you have a guitar strapped on you and you're trying not to lose your position in front of your mic. It sucks! I could just use my free hand and do everything with a click of the mouse in 8.5 and prior.
+1 for sure! I can't count how many times this has annoyed me in X1.... As much as I hate mice, the availability of one-handed command access is often far more important than it might seem. I too frequently have a guitar wrapped around me or one hand on my piano keyboard and the need to change to 2-handed anything during these "operations" is very uncomfortable... To say the least... Keni
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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Re:Sonar X1 - Where are we?
2011/07/14 17:52:10
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SteveStrummerUK
Keni
SteveStrummerUK
Keni
Cakewalk is touting X1 as being the best selling release they've had.... I find that hard to believe myself, but I've been wrong so many times...
Keni, I've seen it described subjectively as the most successful release ever, but not objectively as the 'best selling'.
I once asked the question in here how they defined 'successful' but got no reply. Using a word like 'successful' without qualifying its usage is just meaningless ad-speak in my opinion.
However, branded as 'X1' it may have shifted more units than before as X1 Essentials is effectively the replacement for SONAR Home Studio and will have been included in the figures I guess.
Hi Steve...
Thanks for pointing that out. I do recall seeing those words when I read the info and you're right. I took it to mean more sales, but it's probably not and simply a ploy to make it sound more important and gain more sales... I seem to see more people waiting than ever before. There have always been some who wait (smart) until the reports and 1st bugs are in... But this time I see far more mention of such position....
So here's hoping that the next release cleans up enuf of these issues so that I can apologize for my loss of faith... ;-)
Keni
He he, I see Brandon's about - he might care to tell us how Cakewalk define "successful" in the context it was used.
Wel, as you might imagine, there are a lot of ways to define success for a product like X1. Some are purely financial and some are related to the broader (and sometimes less tangible) intended goals of the product's release. Examples are: 1) Day one upgrade sales 2) Upgrade sales year-to-date 3) Initial retail stocking orders 4) Press Reviews 5) Non-domestic market distribution sales 6) New customer sales 7) Reduced support costs 8) OEM sales (SONAR X1 LE) In most of these categories, SONAR X1 has broken our personal best records or achieved what we had hoped/planned for. Now there are other factors like year over year growth, market share, etc. Some of these are yet to be determined for X1, but we wholeheartedly feel there are enough successes (for instance our biggest one-day webstore sales ever) to feel this is our overall most successful version of SONAR to date. It's a tough thing to define as there can be many factors that add up to what is deemed success and by whom. We see it more as a collection of personal bests and goals achieved that we feel make X1 "our most successful SONAR ever". This is not to say that SONAR X1 has not come with some real challenges as well. But in order to leap forward you must often take risks and the results of these risks are sometimes upheaval and pain to some, while bringing pure joy to others. We'll do our best to salve the aforementioned "pain" over time and are currently in a day-today quest to do exactly that. And there you have it.
"The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel." WG SONAR Platinum | VS-700 | A-800 PRO | PCAL i7 with SSD running Windows 8 x64 | Samsung 27" LCD @ 1920x1080 | Blue Sky monitors with BMC | All kinds of other stuff
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SteveStrummerUK
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Re:Sonar X1 - Where are we?
2011/07/14 17:55:18
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Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]
SteveStrummerUK
Keni
SteveStrummerUK
Keni
Cakewalk is touting X1 as being the best selling release they've had.... I find that hard to believe myself, but I've been wrong so many times...
Keni, I've seen it described subjectively as the most successful release ever, but not objectively as the 'best selling'.
I once asked the question in here how they defined 'successful' but got no reply. Using a word like 'successful' without qualifying its usage is just meaningless ad-speak in my opinion.
However, branded as 'X1' it may have shifted more units than before as X1 Essentials is effectively the replacement for SONAR Home Studio and will have been included in the figures I guess.
Hi Steve...
Thanks for pointing that out. I do recall seeing those words when I read the info and you're right. I took it to mean more sales, but it's probably not and simply a ploy to make it sound more important and gain more sales... I seem to see more people waiting than ever before. There have always been some who wait (smart) until the reports and 1st bugs are in... But this time I see far more mention of such position....
So here's hoping that the next release cleans up enuf of these issues so that I can apologize for my loss of faith... ;-)
Keni
He he, I see Brandon's about - he might care to tell us how Cakewalk define "successful" in the context it was used.
Wel, as you might imagine, there are a lot of ways to define success for a product like X1. Some are purely financial and some are related to the broader (and sometimes less tangible) intended goals of the product's release.
Examples are:
1) Day one upgrade sales
2) Upgrade sales year-to-date
3) Initial retail stocking orders
4) Press Reviews
5) Non-domestic market distribution sales
6) New customer sales
7) Reduced support costs
8) OEM sales (SONAR X1 LE)
In most of these categories, SONAR X1 has broken our personal best records or achieved what we had hoped/planned for. Now there are other factors like year over year growth, market share, etc. Some of these are yet to be determined for X1, but we wholeheartedly feel there are enough successes (for instance our biggest one-day webstore sales ever) to feel this is our overall most successful version of SONAR to date. It's a tough thing to define as there can be many factors that add up to what is deemed success and by whom. We see it more as a collection of personal bests and goals achieved that we feel make X1 "our most successful SONAR ever".
This is not to say that SONAR X1 has not come with some real challenges as well. But in order to leap forward you must often take risks and the results of these risks are sometimes upheaval and pain to some, while bringing pure joy to others. We'll do our best to salve the aforementioned "pain" over time and are currently in a day-today quest to do exactly that.
And there you have it.
You really are a top bloke Brandon 
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Keni
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Re:Sonar X1 - Where are we?
2011/07/14 17:57:21
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Rodab
I personally don't understand what you guys find so hard to figure out about X1. I come from a completely different DAW, with a completely different layout, different key commands, workflow, and mindset and managed to pick up Sonar's workflow within a day or two. Not hard at all.
But I guess I can understand if you are a longtime user being resistant to change. Change is one thing that brought me here. However, change has never made something hard for me to learn. It's just a matter of if I like the changes or not and if Im willing to accept the changes.
It's not a matter of can I/We figure them out... I've been using X1 since it came out and I get around pretty well... I know how to use all my typical toolset and there's the problem... Using my methods the system is slower and harder to get my work done. I'm all for change when it helps me but not when it gets in the way of work I must do often... The new Event Filter comes to mind and reminds me how much longer all my work takes because of it's issues.... But I get my owrk done. I have no problem changing if the change is better for me... Not simply because someone else thinks it should be. Sonar has always made allowances for just that.... Numerous ways to accomplish many jobs... Now we've lost some of those in favor of "un-cluttering the gui" and "safety" issues... I can see how isolating the envope being edited makes it harder to mis-click, but honestly I missed far less often than I must now click all the extra clicks to see/adjust my envelopes... Change is forever... that doesn't make all changes good! Keni
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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Re:Sonar X1 - Where are we?
2011/07/14 17:58:24
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SteveStrummerUK
You really are a top bloke Brandon
You're too kind Steve. Many thanks.
"The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel." WG SONAR Platinum | VS-700 | A-800 PRO | PCAL i7 with SSD running Windows 8 x64 | Samsung 27" LCD @ 1920x1080 | Blue Sky monitors with BMC | All kinds of other stuff
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Keni
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Re:Sonar X1 - Where are we?
2011/07/14 18:10:25
(permalink)
Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]
SteveStrummerUK
Keni
SteveStrummerUK
Keni
Cakewalk is touting X1 as being the best selling release they've had.... I find that hard to believe myself, but I've been wrong so many times...
Keni, I've seen it described subjectively as the most successful release ever, but not objectively as the 'best selling'.
I once asked the question in here how they defined 'successful' but got no reply. Using a word like 'successful' without qualifying its usage is just meaningless ad-speak in my opinion.
However, branded as 'X1' it may have shifted more units than before as X1 Essentials is effectively the replacement for SONAR Home Studio and will have been included in the figures I guess.
Hi Steve...
Thanks for pointing that out. I do recall seeing those words when I read the info and you're right. I took it to mean more sales, but it's probably not and simply a ploy to make it sound more important and gain more sales... I seem to see more people waiting than ever before. There have always been some who wait (smart) until the reports and 1st bugs are in... But this time I see far more mention of such position....
So here's hoping that the next release cleans up enuf of these issues so that I can apologize for my loss of faith... ;-)
Keni
He he, I see Brandon's about - he might care to tell us how Cakewalk define "successful" in the context it was used.
Wel, as you might imagine, there are a lot of ways to define success for a product like X1. Some are purely financial and some are related to the broader (and sometimes less tangible) intended goals of the product's release.
Examples are:
1) Day one upgrade sales
2) Upgrade sales year-to-date
3) Initial retail stocking orders
4) Press Reviews
5) Non-domestic market distribution sales
6) New customer sales
7) Reduced support costs
8) OEM sales (SONAR X1 LE)
In most of these categories, SONAR X1 has broken our personal best records or achieved what we had hoped/planned for. Now there are other factors like year over year growth, market share, etc. Some of these are yet to be determined for X1, but we wholeheartedly feel there are enough successes (for instance our biggest one-day webstore sales ever) to feel this is our overall most successful version of SONAR to date. It's a tough thing to define as there can be many factors that add up to what is deemed success and by whom. We see it more as a collection of personal bests and goals achieved that we feel make X1 "our most successful SONAR ever".
This is not to say that SONAR X1 has not come with some real challenges as well. But in order to leap forward you must often take risks and the results of these risks are sometimes upheaval and pain to some, while bringing pure joy to others. We'll do our best to salve the aforementioned "pain" over time and are currently in a day-today quest to do exactly that.
And there you have it.
Thanks Brandon... Very well stated... and I appreciate the info as I'm sure many other do... I sure hope you guys can salve the pain as it's been a really difficult one for many of us... Honestly I couldn't care less about many of the "new" items, but they need some more thinking to make them palatable to those with a bitter taste from the loss of their' workflow... Such as an "ALL" option for the Event Filter so that it would appear and work as if the filter wasn't there for those who find it intrusive.... ;-) (Had to put in a plug for that one) I don't see it as a bad thing that a 3rd party software is needed/used to fix some things... Such as benstat's Sonar Plus... got back to single stroke, one-handed commands for most of the items I (personally) need and the gui I can almost forget about as I don't use most of it's features.... So maybe if you offer benstat and Panup a little more help and support, they can do more and take that work out of your hands so you can work on "other" issues? I think If Cakewalk would at least endorse these people/software it would let users know that it's ok to use them and gain the help they bring... Thanks again... Keni
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