relpomiraculous
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/06 19:55:30
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Sibelius 7 First was cheap - $89 for Sibelius 6 First and $49 for the upgrade to Sibelius 7 First. The "First" series is a paired down version of the Full featured Sibelius software that has more features than I would ever need. And it does work with Sonar (rewire) already. http://www.sweetwater.com...etail/Sibelius6Firste/
Sonar X2 64 bit - Win 7 Pro 64 bit - Intel Core i7 870 - 8 gigs of ram - HP 3130 desktop
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Beepster
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/06 20:06:39
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@relpomiraculous... Now THAT is awesome and attainable. Thank you, kind sir. It has been bookmarked for later purchase.
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Michael Five
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/06 20:07:17
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stevec
This topic is like the never-ending story... 
Does that mean that the staff view is eventually going to eat up the world unless we all start reading childrens books?
_______________________________________________ X1c, p35 6600 Quad OC@3Ghz, FF400, Saffire 6, IBM T42, UAD-1, Superior 2.0
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Beepster
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/06 20:10:03
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Can I be the boulder eating monster?
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stevec
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/06 21:27:12
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Well, some might compare the SV to the Nothing. Perhaps what we need is a new name for it...
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trimph1
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/06 21:54:21
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Giant Amorphous Protoplasm?
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
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myconsumerclub
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/06 22:48:51
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myconsumerclub
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/06 22:49:58
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Samsung I7 8 mb ram windows 8 64 bit on everything x2 & X1 producer line 6 podfarm gold interface event monitors Ibanez rg 350 guitar and GA6CE classical edirol pcr 500 keystation 88 plugins out the wazoo
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sharke
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/06 23:49:28
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Maybe the reason why Sonar's user base includes so few staff users is because music readers see no reason to buy it, precisely because it doesn't have decent notation functionality.
I for one, think it's a shame. The trouble with PRV's is that it's like the keyboard version of guitar tabulature. It's basically there for people who cannot read music, or people who can play by ear. I played guitar by ear and from tab for years. When I finally knuckled down and learned to sight read, it was a revelation. Now as a classical guitar player I cannot even imagine learning (or composing) an intricate piece with guitar tab. It doesn't offer a good enough visual representation of the music.
My main problem with PRV's is that I'm not a keyboard player. I can write music that's in my head, but the PRV is just nowhere near as good as traditional notation for setting down music swiftly and accurately, and keeping it organized in your head. If you have keyboard skills, then I imagine the brunt of your arranging is going to involve playing the parts on the keyboard and then touching them up in the PRV later. Without keyboard skills, you're reduced to inserting the notes on the PRV from scratch. It's just so much easier to do that on a proper stave.
I think that by offering a good quality notation view, or by offering a plugin for a price, Cakewalk would be greatly increasing the potential user base of Sonar.
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stevec
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/07 00:03:52
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If you have keyboard skills, then I imagine the brunt of your arranging is going to involve playing the parts on the keyboard and then touching them up in the PRV later. Without keyboard skills, you're reduced to inserting the notes on the PRV from scratch. Good point... I do play keys, so have never realy thought about it much. I may sometimes manually write parts into the PRV, but I usually do play them in and edit afterwards as needed. My hope for the SV is simple: Make it as simple to enter and modify notes as the PRV when it comes to snap and duration.
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Gusfmm
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/09 09:37:16
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Shall we keep this visible? Back up.
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Shinyhead
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/09 10:48:57
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Hi, I have often posted and answered Cakewalk surveys just to express my frustration on Cakewalk/Sonar notation before. On the Sonar forum, Gusfmm has published the BEST post (below) on notation I have ever read! Why... of course because his clarity but mostly because of the YT links. Watching those two videos are HUGELY PAINFUL as a Sonar user!!! As I said before, I (and lots of Sonar users) use the written language of music which is of course Notation and would love to do so in Sonar. At this point, this is barely possible. How can Cakewalk pretend they offer professional level software without adequate notation (as in the Cubase videos below) is beyond me!! And, unfortunately, I have stopped hoping for Sonar to join the other DAWs in decent Notation capabilities... and also buying upgrades Sonar upgrades (until that is, Notation is re-imagined). So Bakers: any chance, this might change?? Jon ____________________________________________________________________________________ You do know there are other scoring/notation software other there, don't you? Finale, Notion, Encore, MuseScore, Magic Score, etc. Not all are at the same evolution level, but they do exist out there. So it is not only Sibelius.
synkrotron
At the moment we have a staff view that functions at a certain level. It falls short of the kind of detail that you would get out of a package such as Sibelius. Can you really see Cakewalk putting as much development time into their current staff view in order to bring it up to the standards that the Sibelius uses expect. Considering the amount that you have to pay for Sibelius, I really cannot, for the life of me, see Cakewalk taking their current staff view to the level of Sibelius without some kind of additional charge, and they would do that, in my mind, by making it an add-on module that you would have to pay for.
...
andy
Again not sure why such fixation about Sibelius and Avid. You keep insinuating that somebody is asking for Sibelius-like functionality built into SONAR. Just to clarify - nobody is asking for that. It's been said countless times. Since I mentioned it on the very first page of this tread, I thought it could be instructive for some to refer to these videos to try to get a flavor for what (at least) I would like to see CW implement: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqDK2Rhpb3g http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFi9rsyh8eY You know what part of the problem is, that this has been for so long neglected, that the cost to develop and build something like this into SONAR is most likely high enough for Cakewalk to be quite reluctant to entertain the idea at this point. Quite a shame. Mr. Noel Borthwick has been active on the other X2 tread, maybe he would swing by and provide some kind feedback on this. Some of us would greatly appreciate it.
post edited by Shinyhead - 2012/08/09 12:04:14
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vintagevibe
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/09 12:24:57
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Shinyhead
How can Cakewalk pretend they offer professional level software without adequate notation (as in the Cubase videos below) is beyond me!!
Watch out. Whenever I make this point the flames start flying. It could get ugly.
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vintagevibe
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/09 12:29:17
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Shinyhead
Again not sure why such fixation about Sibelius and Avid. You keep insinuating that somebody is asking for Sibelius-like functionality built into SONAR. Just to clarify - nobody is asking for that. It's been said countless times. Since I mentioned it on the very first page of this tread, I thought it could be instructive for some to refer to these videos to try to get a flavor for what (at least) I would like to see CW implement:
This is an endless loop of ignorance. I even emailed one of the moderators about notation and the reply was that you might see incremental improvements but Sonar will never be like Sibelius. Just shoot me! If even they don't get this there is no hope. Don't expect them to chime in. They avoid this subject like the plague because they nothing is going to happen.
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rabeach
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/09 13:14:50
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I believe if they had the open source code they would address the remaining issues. My guess is they do not and this is a result of the split/spin off company so long ago.
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Shinyhead
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/09 14:18:44
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rabeach
I believe if they had the open source code they would address the remaining issues. My guess is they do not and this is a result of the split/spin off company so long ago.
Rabeach,
Let's say you are right about the missing code...
I would say it's a non-issue as the best thing CW could do is ditch everything related to Notation in Sonar and replace with brand new Notation.
And yes, looking over Cubase would be a great place to start...
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Chip
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/09 14:50:37
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On the off-chance that someone from Cakewalk looks at this ... I'm a no-keyboard-skill vocalist who will enter a complex vocal piece so that I can hear/learn my part at different speeds, either alone or against the other parts. I take and scan old baroque/classical chamber music scores, remove the bassoon line and then put the resulting audio file on a CD so that a bassoon-playing sibling will have something interesting to practice to. I sometimes MIDI/karaoke-ize a chorus number in a show so that kids who don't play (or have parents who play) keyboard can learn their music using any old home computer. I used Sonar 1 through 7 before my frustration with the staff and lyric views (is it yet possible, for example, to enter a capital "C" in the lyric view without using the shift-lock key?) drove me to look for--and to pay for and to use--some other tool. When Cakewalk sends me an email announcing a new version, I wait a few days and then pop in here to gauge the community reaction to staff/lyric view changes ... and then disappear for another year. It's not a "boycott", as some people have suggested. I've just found other tools that are better than Sonar for what I want to do with computers and music. Based on what I'm reading, I guess I'll see you all again next year.
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rabeach
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/09 15:06:29
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Shinyhead
rabeach
I believe if they had the open source code they would address the remaining issues. My guess is they do not and this is a result of the split/spin off company so long ago.
Rabeach,
Let's say you are right about the missing code...
I would say it's a non-issue as the best thing CW could do is ditch everything related to Notation in Sonar and replace with brand new Notation.
And yes, looking over Cubase would be a great place to start...
I have been asking for Notation additions for 12 years.
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sergiobklyn
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/09 15:30:10
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I don't want to get my hopes high, but under the Deliver element in this page http://www.cakewalk.com/SONAR-X2/ there's "Print Notation". It leads me to believe that there are some notation improvements if they are listing this as a feature in X2. Finger crossed, Sergio
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synkrotron
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/09 15:34:53
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post edited by synkrotron - 2012/08/11 04:17:01
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vintagevibe
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/09 15:45:27
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synkrotron
vintagevibe
Shinyhead
Again not sure why such fixation about Sibelius and Avid. You keep insinuating that somebody is asking for Sibelius-like functionality built into SONAR. Just to clarify - nobody is asking for that. It's been said countless times. Since I mentioned it on the very first page of this tread, I thought it could be instructive for some to refer to these videos to try to get a flavor for what (at least) I would like to see CW implement:
This is an endless loop of ignorance. I even emailed one of the moderators about notation and the reply was that you might see incremental improvements but Sonar will never be like Sibelius. Just shoot me! If even they don't get this there is no hope. Don't expect them to chime in. They avoid this subject like the plague because they nothing is going to happen.
I don't know why I even bother looking in here any more, not since the last load of trouble I got into, but the above post by vintagevibe is a total misquote. Is that even allowed in here?
I am particularly perturbed that parts of my posts are being re-quoted, even after I have tried to explain where I was coming from in those posts. But, yeah, that's the internet for you, and I should know better. There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that, in future, I shall be keeping my opinions to myself, asked or not.
I will continue to try an offer help to others, where I am able, but that is all.
regards
andy
I agreed with you. What is the problem?
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synkrotron
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/09 16:09:30
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post edited by synkrotron - 2012/08/11 04:18:06
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pbognar
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/09 16:24:51
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sergiobklyn
I don't want to get my hopes high, but under the Deliver element in this page http://www.cakewalk.com/SONAR-X2/ there's "Print Notation". It leads me to believe that there are some notation improvements if they are listing this as a feature in X2.
Finger crossed,
Sergio
I thought the same thing. Check post 149. And yet, for me, it isn't so much about printing notation as it is about inputting and editing.
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rabeach
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/09 19:30:44
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pbognar
sergiobklyn
I don't want to get my hopes high, but under the Deliver element in this page http://www.cakewalk.com/SONAR-X2/ there's "Print Notation". It leads me to believe that there are some notation improvements if they are listing this as a feature in X2.
Finger crossed,
Sergio
I thought the same thing. Check post 149.
And yet, for me, it isn't so much about printing notation as it is about inputting and editing.
If I remember correctly and I may not the print notation was broken in X1d. So my hopes are not up.
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LpMike75
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/10 02:22:50
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vintagevibe
This is an endless loop of ignorance. I even emailed one of the moderators about notation and the reply was that you might see incremental improvements but Sonar will never be like Sibelius. Just shoot me! If even they don't get this there is no hope. Don't expect them to chime in. They avoid this subject like the plague because they nothing is going to happen.
To quote part of my previous post (#116)
"I went to one of those "meet a rep" events and spoke with a Cake employee. I pointed out to him, "if Cake improved their notation, they could market Sonar to the ever increasing, "composer" crowd. Currently, it would seem Logic and Cubase has much of that "crowd"." The Cake rep explained that was "not their target audience."
I took that as "end of story" on the subject. I don't think Cake employees are going to "chime in" because they already made a business decision on the subject, and are sticking with it. There is nothing new to say that hasn't been said, in several past notation threads. They sure would like it to be better, but they are not going to allocate resources towards it at this time......
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backwoods
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/10 02:29:40
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I have read music since I was about 7 and have no need for it within Sonar. My 2 cents.
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tomixornot
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/10 08:37:46
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I'm using X1 and Garritan Jazz Band for wind instruments arrangement. I use midi tracks for recording, editing them on PRV as required.
While I don't use SV for any note entry, I will check on SV very often as the arrangement develops. At the end of the process, I like the simplicity of printing score directly from X1 and hand over to my band for rehearsal.
So for me, SV is very important and I like to see SV updates in future releases. There are well known limits, and I do my best to submit feature request, more than once, as I may have forgotten what I've submitted - until it's updated, hopefully.
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tomixornot
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/10 08:48:58
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rabeach
pbognar
sergiobklyn
I don't want to get my hopes high, but under the Deliver element in this page http://www.cakewalk.com/SONAR-X2/ there's "Print Notation". It leads me to believe that there are some notation improvements if they are listing this as a feature in X2.
Finger crossed,
Sergio
I thought the same thing. Check post 149.
And yet, for me, it isn't so much about printing notation as it is about inputting and editing.
If I remember correctly and I may not the print notation was broken in X1d. So my hopes are not up.
My DAW is not connected to a printer, so I have it print to PDF, and it works. Never tried to print directly.
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Gusfmm
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/10 10:58:57
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LpMike75
vintagevibe
This is an endless loop of ignorance. I even emailed one of the moderators about notation and the reply was that you might see incremental improvements but Sonar will never be like Sibelius. Just shoot me! If even they don't get this there is no hope. Don't expect them to chime in. They avoid this subject like the plague because they nothing is going to happen.
To quote part of my previous post (#116)
"I went to one of those "meet a rep" events and spoke with a Cake employee. I pointed out to him, "if Cake improved their notation, they could market Sonar to the ever increasing, "composer" crowd. Currently, it would seem Logic and Cubase has much of that "crowd"." The Cake rep explained that was "not their target audience."
I took that as "end of story" on the subject. I don't think Cake employees are going to "chime in" because they already made a business decision on the subject, and are sticking with it. There is nothing new to say that hasn't been said, in several past notation threads. They sure would like it to be better, but they are not going to allocate resources towards it at this time......
Mike, I had read your post previously, absolutely great feedback, thanks much for sharing. My interpretation is that if your perception of the issue were to be right on, which I get the unfortunate feeling there is a very good likelyhood it will be, this would be a sign CW will have absolutely no intention or interest in developing SV beyond it being an atrophic uncompetitive tool part of SONAR. This would also be the end of an era for me. And I'm concious I made a decision to roll the dice with 8, then 8.5 and X1, in hope to see some progression. But there is no point in continuing investing in the wrong place. I'm also well aware I may be part of a very small minority. I remain watchful and even hopeful, for the next 20 more days.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/10 13:16:48
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The ONLY thing I use Staff View for is for scanning to see if there are any doubled Midi notes as they are plainly visible (being either side of the stalk) and easily delete-able from within the same view.
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