sergiobklyn
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Sonar X2 Notation
Hi,
I could not find any mention of notation improvement in Sonar X2. Does anybody know if there are any changes in the notation engine?
Thanks,
Sergio
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Beepster
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/02 15:50:18
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So far it doesn't look like it.
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InstrEd
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/02 15:52:25
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So Sad if there isn't any staff view improvements :(
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chuckebaby
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/02 16:02:52
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im not sure but would you fair better with a 3rd party software for notation?
i havent used it thats why i ask?
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Beepster
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/02 16:07:13
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I've mentioned this a few times now but I think it would be cool if the Cakewalk guys allowed a third party company to create a dockable, fully integrated Staff View add on so those who need it can buy it from the Cake Store. I'd probably invest in something like that.
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Jimbo 88
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/02 16:31:37
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Careful, I started a thread on this and it ended with people suggesting I was only after my best interests and there is not enough data to suggest that notation is worth improving.
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Jimbo 88
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/02 16:35:00
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Beepster
I've mentioned this a few times now but I think it would be cool if the Cakewalk guys allowed a third party company to create a dockable, fully integrated Staff View add on so those who need it can buy it from the Cake Store. I'd probably invest in something like that.
THis is a cool idea. I got Notion3 to rewire into Sonar to do this, but it only worked for one track at a time.
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Beepster
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/02 16:37:35
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Yeah, I saw that. Considering how many people have asked for it it probably is a sound business decision and at worst if they made it a paid add on they could cover their dev costs that way. Seems simple to me. Maybe there are patent issues in the mix causing problems.
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Beepster
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/02 16:38:35
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I occasionally make a good smart... occasionally. ;-p
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Gusfmm
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/03 12:22:40
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I've seen people here asking for SV improvements for years, fallen on deaf ears. I acknowledge I've become quite annoyed by this and reflected a bit of my frustration on here from time to time.
I was hopeful (I guess still am for the balance of the month) that CW would at least provide some signs of appreciation for the minority of users who consider SV a critical component of their Sonar use (again, myself amongst them).
We've discussed this in good length in the past, so feel repeating any detail would be quite redundant and unnecessary. But to summarize:
- nobody wants a full-blown professional notation and printing facility. There are existing solutions for that audience. But the problem for the Sonar user is that these don't effectively integrate with Sonar nor help the musician/composer with workflow or the basic compositional and arranging process.
- in a nutshell, what I'd like to have is a quality SV comparable to what C6.5 has in place today. Nothing more, nothing less. And then progressively fine-tune it as everything else is maintained and fine-tuned in Sonar.
CAKEWALK: Are you listening?
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Dave Modisette
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/03 12:33:11
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I'm hoping for a plugin that will analyze and print out the score for "The Rite of Spring" from a two track MP3.  No mention of Staff view but there are more features to be unfurled later this month.
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thebiglongy
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/03 18:30:13
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Perhaps you should get a petition on the forum lol. Get all members to agree NOT to upgrade until they give clear information on what if anything is happening with the Notation abilities of Sonar. It's not as if this is a new issue, I've watched this come up over and over again yet nothing done, a little show of solidarity for those who compose using notation wouldn't go a miss. I for one, will happily hold out to support those who need notation (don't use it myself).
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ptheisen
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/03 18:40:29
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As a show of solidarity, I'll add my $.02 that I would also like to see the staff view improved. Gusfmm, I think you described what most of us are looking for perfectly, hopefully no one could blame us for wanting just that.
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synkrotron
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/03 18:42:12
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post edited by synkrotron - 2012/08/11 04:06:57
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Guitarpima
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/03 18:44:13
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There haven't been improvements since forever it seems and it is not likely to change. Actually I like how the SV works for the most part but don't like that you can't use better subdivisions of note values.
I use Finale to write out my stuff when the SV proves inadaquate.
Notation, the original DAW. Everything else is just rote. We are who we are and no more than another. Humans, you people are crazy. Win 7 x64 X2 Intel DX58SO, Intel i7 920 2.66ghz 12gb DDR3 ASUS ATI EAH5750 650w PSU 4x WD HDs 320gb DVD, DVD RW Eleven Rack, KRK Rokit 8s and 10s sub
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chuckebaby
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/03 19:05:16
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there you go finale is one that i would suggest as well.
i just dont think there is enough of an audience for it,no shame on me im sorry,but there have been only 15 posts in 24 hrs and a handfull of people asking for it.2 of those posts are mine and have no use for it.i do all my editing in the prv or the old fashon way like the musicians used to...live !!!
i just dont see cake putting in the effort to promote something of a dying breed.
like i said,im sorry.
i could be wrong,maybe in the future we will see great improvments.
i hope so for you guys.
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AT
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/03 19:24:49
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I would think it has to do w/ ecomonics. Cakewalk started out as a midi squencer, then added audio, then other means of "inputting" sound.
I doubt if 10% of SONAR users extensively use notation, who have stuck w/ SONAR up to now. I imagine if someone really needs notation they have a notation program (that costs as much as SONAR itself). Cake did make XML (is that right?) exportable in X1. With such a small base, it hardly warrents spending money to expand notation that most likely won't lead to further sales.
Sorry, that is the way it is. If Cake thought they could make money expanding notation, they would do it. They haven't, ergo.
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Beepster
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/03 19:25:04
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IDK, chuck. I see this come up all the time and although it's not a factor in my continued usage of Sonar stuff it would be something extremely useful to myself and really any traditionally trained musician (not that I am one but I am slowly learning all that stuff). I'd actually like to see full notation orchestral scoring/MIDI capabilities. Obviously that is huge but I'll keep saying it (not that anyone at Cake will listen to the rantings of a crazy n00b) it can be an add on... IT CAN BE AN ADD ON... IT CAN BE A PAID ADD ON!!! I kind of envision this. Contract a third party company more used to notation scoring to design it. Make it fully integrated with X1 so we can score and then easily apply any of our synths to the notes (like it does now but a little smoother and maybe have menus IN the actual SV that dictate what synth controls which staff... like a browser). Then they could charge different price points for different levels of complexity. ie: Included version is simple Treble and Bass clef and piano staff and some guitar and bass functions similar to what we have now (except fix the darned guitar chord thing... it sucks). The next version up would be for putting together band arrangements up to same 8-12 instruments. The next version up would be for full orchestral type scoring. Make it dockable and as I said fully integrated with an easy way to apply synths (like Dim Pro) directly to each staff/part. There should be a little window to get to the browser in there. Frack man... they could make a fortune and turn Sonar into the go to for TRUE music dorks.
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Beepster
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/03 19:34:03
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And the idea would be "instant orchestra". I think it, I toss it on the staff, my computer plays it. It'd be like Beethoven sitting down with a full orchestra (and way way more with the nature of VSTs) in his living room and as soon as his pen hits the paper the musicians can play the part. No screwing around. You write it. Pick an instrument and KAPLOW... it's done. THAT is what I, personally, want.
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djwayne
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/03 19:39:18
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Beepster
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/03 19:39:26
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Also PRV is great for a lot of things but it is a huge hassle compared to proper notation scoring. If you know what you are doing on the staff tonally you can get stuff done WAY more easily than with PRV. The PRV, IMO, would then be used for adjusting dynamics and more intricate editing of not length (as figuring out note duration is actually more complicated in notation than PRV). Just some thoughts.
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Beepster
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/03 19:40:41
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That is not integrated nor dockable. That just says you can export to those programs.
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synkrotron
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/03 19:46:23
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Beepster
That is not integrated nor dockable. That just says you can export to those programs.
True Beep, but that is Cakewalk's position on the whole Staff View thing... they obviously don't want us to use Sonar for intricate scoring, or else why mention, as they put it "popular notation programs."
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Beepster
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/03 19:54:09
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I'm actually not rabid about the Staff View thing like others are but it would be nice. Just throwing some ideas out there in case the Cakesters are listening. I think it'd be cool and possibly calm these rumblings... AND perhaps make them some money in the process. I mean... everyone likes money, right? ;-p
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stratman70
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/03 20:14:55
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thebiglongy
Perhaps you should get a petition on the forum lol. Get all members to agree NOT to upgrade until they give clear information on what if anything is happening with the Notation abilities of Sonar. It's not as if this is a new issue, I've watched this come up over and over again yet nothing done, a little show of solidarity for those who compose using notation wouldn't go a miss. I for one, will happily hold out to support those who need notation (don't use it myself).
I won't :-)
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Jimbo 88
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/03 20:32:59
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I can guarantee that there will be a day where the Bakers will have regrets not paying attention to staff view. I don't know the when, why or how, but i've been in this buisness long enough to know and see things change. Things change a lot especially regarding technology. Notation will still be around and how orchestras and jazz bands and all kinds of music will still be performed. DAWs might not...
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synkrotron
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/03 21:09:33
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post edited by synkrotron - 2012/08/11 04:08:04
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Beepster
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/03 21:53:06
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The thing is it's very difficult for those who do not understand notation to appreciate how useful it is... and that is no slag to people who don't because I've only just come to gain a basic understanding of it myself after twenty years of playing and everyone has their own way of doing things. Whatever works works IMO. However once an understanding of notation is there in your mind the functionality, simplicity and compact nature of the notation staff is EXTREMELY useful when dealing with tones and keys. For timing and dynamics not so much. PRV is great but it is a much larger format, takes up far more screen space and instead of just tossing in a key signature and knowing where to drop things you have to pluck away like a frantic hen to get things done. The point is to dismiss those who use notation is contrary to a couple hundred years of musical knowledge and tradition. Notation was MIDI (write it, musicians read and play it) before MIDI could even be conceptualized. Not gonna affect any of my future purchases from Cake but it is an interesting subject. And I find the reference to "bedroom" musicians/engineers a little silly as the location and proximity of the mind and talent of an individual has absolutely nothing to do with their abilities as a musician.
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Jimbo 88
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/03 22:01:20
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synkrotron
Jimbo 88
Notation will still be around and how orchestras and jazz bands and all kinds of music will still be performed. DAWs might not...
And I think that's the whole point, right there. I wouldn't mind betting that fewer people are using DAWs like Sonar to compose music that will then be played by an orchestra or session musicians, from sheet music printed from the same DAW, while they, in turn, are then recorded as audio back into that DAW.
More and more bands are using Sonar/Logic/PT, what ever, to create ideas in their homes, who then get together in the studio, and don't even bother with sheet music. And I'm talking about regular, professional bands here, not bedroom peeps like me. I've watched recent video blogs of Opeth and Meshuggah (like them or not, it does not matter), and that is how the use DAWs to help create their music. Steve Wilson of Porcupine Tree is another example... DAWs are great for that kind of thing, in my humble opinion.
Anyway, back to my bedroom now... got to make some throw away muzak...
Yes, and in a round about way you are making my point for me... Not to belittle you or anyone, but while you go back to your bedroom I'm going back to my studio. I'm preparing a score that I'm being well paid for and will recieve royalties. I'm preparing a Trumpet score to be recorded into Sonar. 10+ years ago I hand wrote the music and recorded the trumpet on a Tascam 88. Today I compose in Sonar, record in Sonar and score in Sibelius. 10 years from now who knows how I will record, but I will still have to prepare the music for the Trumpet player. The Tascam 88 is no longer needed, but the music still is. Sonar got a good start in the industry 'cause Cakewalk had a decent staff view for the time. The sequencer went more hand in hand with notation. The common denomonator is the music score/notation. 10 years from now there is a good chance the guys in the bedroom will not be using a DAW....but 10 years from now there will be me and others still preparing a score for recording and notation will be the basis for that technology, just as it was for Sonar once upon a time.
post edited by Jimbo 88 - 2012/08/03 23:20:33
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John
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Re:Sonar X2 Notation
2012/08/03 22:55:48
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Jimbo 88
I can guarantee that there will be a day where the Bakers will have regrets not paying attention to staff view. I don't know the when, why or how, but i've been in this buisness long enough to know and see things change. Things change a lot especially regarding technology. Notation will still be around and how orchestras and jazz bands and all kinds of music will still be performed. DAWs might not...
I hope you are wrong but I fear you are right. If CW does not improve the Staff View in a way that brings it up to that offered by Cubase or Logic Sonar will never be taken as seriously as I hope CW wishes it to be. No it wont mean anything to people that play by ear nor the loopers or electronic musicians but it will have an unfortunate impact on jazz musicians and classical musicians alike; people who think in notation and communicate via notation and can not do so because of CW's refusal to improve it. People that want and need their ideas shown in notation are not going to choose Sonar. Music departments in colleges are not going to pick it as their first choice for general use for this very reason. People that have trained their entire lives using notation are not going to let that skill go dormant. No need when there are very good alternatives in the form of Cubase and Logic. The fact that Sonar has had notation all these years puts it in their league yet no one in those fields would consider it because its notation is so poor. Reaper and Studio one have no notation and don't claim to be general purpose DAWs. CW has by the fact it covers all aspects of music does have ambitions for being in this league. But in this one area it falls very short. I hope CW wakes up to how important proper and good integrated notation is to garner the respect and prestige it will command from those that live with and by notation in their daily work. There are far more that one may think.
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