Since this turning into a scoring thread to some extent I'll put my two cents in on the subject. How do you score a saw wave and 10 other custom voices in any notation editor? I know many the more experienced notation artists might have somewhat of an answer. But the point is that it seems people expect Sonar to have a notation-staff veiw with all notation abilities of the instruments and their abilities contained in Sonar. As if the Staff Veiw should write the complex articulations and voices variants. I don't think that's ever been possible. As in writing a score in the old fashioned way, the notes go down first and the embellishments are written afterward. I don't see much difference in playing in a midi peice or peices and then transferring that score to a notation editor for finishing.
The problems with embedding a full scoring-notation editor into a DAW such as Sonar could involve many complex problems in code, who already has written the working code to do so, how to acurately notate some of the modern instruments involved, etc. I think you see what I'm saying.

pbognar

• Apps like Live, Acid, and Fruity Loops will probably never add staff editing, because they are targeted for a specific user base (the exception being Acoustica's MixCraft which added a staff editor in version 5)

I suppose I may have a more robust need for Sonar. I'm not a bedroom producer.  I have a professional studio downtown chicago. I'm pulling for Sonar more than you know.  Even though Sonar can't touch some of the functions of my ICON board,  Pro-Tools can't touch Sonar's Music Creation DAW. There is absolutely no way that Live, Acid or Fruity loops would ever enter my studio. Also - after investigating sonars staff view, there is absolutely no way I would ever use it. Neither would I use Sonars video capabilites since its so limited. 
 
All I'm saying is that the DAW portion of Sonar is absolutely fantastic.  Cakewalk - please don't screw up the DAW with slight improvements to side apps.
 
Cakewalk - you make a great DAW. Please keep focusing on the DAW.  X1 is an excellent business move!! 
 
In 1969 McDonalds resturant put the Big Mac on its menu.  It is a brilliant long term business objective to never touch it. Same recipe and same taste for 40 + years.   Its a business move.  Go somewhere else if you want something else.  Thats the McDonalds business objective that has worked for over 40 years. 
 
If you want to be #1 then you have to beat #1 at its game or present a pheonominal alternative. Trust me - I would absolutely love to remove my ICON and Pro-Tools from my studio.  Having Cakewalk focus on staff writing or video editing is not going to help it be the #1 DAW. That would be a horrible business move. But of course selfish people aren't concerned about business. They just want what they want.   
 

tomas gato


Don't worry

Be happy!!!

X1 will change.................everything.

Bapu said so

and I, for one

believe him

See, I knew was right!


The marketing wizards at IBM once determined, all you have to do is get 3% of the potential population to buy into your idea/product and you're on your way to market domination.

LpMike75


That's an interesting comparison with McDonalds menu.  McDonalds menu has evolved over time and includes many items.  McDonalds does not want you to go 'somewhere else', that's why they offer salads, milkshakes, cookies etc etc...many things that are not just burgers.

However they do not, as far as I can tell, have either a staff view or Matrix view

Here's their staff view:
 

gtgarner

I'm not a bedroom producer.

No indeed, you just told us you are a coder.

I have a professional studio downtown chicago.

Are you a coder or do you have a studio? Make up your mind! Or maybe you have a studio but are not the engineer? (Which makes you mentioning that you have a studio irrelevant).

Even though Sonar can't touch some of the functions of my ICON board,  Pro-Tools can't touch Sonar's Music Creation DAW. There is absolutely no way that Live, Acid or Fruity loops would ever enter my studio.

Live is very good at what it does. There is no reason not to have it in the studio.

All I'm saying is that the DAW portion of Sonar is absolutely fantastic.  Cakewalk - please don't screw up the DAW with slight improvements to side apps.

You don't have much trust in the bakers do you? As far as I am concerned Cakewalk can do whatever they want with the staff view. Clearly there is a demand for improvement there. I might not use it but it would be selfish to be against improvements in that area.

  Cakewalk - you make a great DAW. Please keep focusing on the DAW.  X1 is an excellent business move!!

It started as a sequencer. Staff notation seems to fit that picture.

 In 1969 McDonalds resturant put the Big Mac on its menu.  It is a brilliant long term business objective to never touch it. Same recipe and same taste for 40 + years.   Its a business move.  Go somewhere else if you want something else.  Thats the McDonalds business objective that has worked for over 40 years.

Great analogy because every six months at most McD add new stuff to their menu to try and please everyone!

If you want to be #1 then you have to beat #1 at its game or present a pheonominal alternative.

Indeed. So how are Cakewalk going to compete with Pro Tools' video features?

Trust me - I would absolutely love to remove my ICON and Pro-Tools from my studio.

Why? That makes no sense? Unless you just own the place and don't actually use the ICON and Pro Tools. Then it makes sense because you just want to cut costs.

Having Cakewalk focus on staff writing or video editing is not going to help it be the #1 DAW. That would be a horrible business move. But of course selfish people aren't concerned about business. They just want what they want.   

So basically you just described yourself as selfish. If you say so...

UnderTow

I write code for AT&T as my primary job.

I "also" own my own ICON studio downtown.  I would get rid of TDM because its more expensive and not more reliable than other platforms anymore.  Another reason I would get rid of ICON is because for some reason - there is a slowdown in TDM pluggins.  Lexicon and Flux and SSL and UA (which never really did)  are not making the professional Line of TDM pluggins like they used to.  They ARE producing the NON-TDM versions though. Thats where I use Sonar the most.

From what I've seen in the most recent X1 videos - X1 has some very "professional" new type -non-bedroom producer features which is excellent to see.  


If I have Protools (ICON) and Sonar - There is no reason for Live or anything else. Period

People only want improvements over staffveiw because its there and weak.  If Sonar didn't have staffview in the first place, then the push might not be there.

Protools (DAW) does not have video features.  You have to perfect your video features "Before" importing it into Protools. Pro-tools and Sonar are just about neck and neck concerning video features. Pro-Tools is starting to do what I thougt Cake would eventually do which is merge (or get bought out) by other #1 companies like AVID (video excellence in high end video editing).

THe McDonalds analogy.  Don't change what you do best is my point. Don't change the price of what got you to where you are for your customers.  If you want to add on something like a salad to the menu, then let people buy that as an add-on - like finale.  Just like McDonalds did.  McDonalds does not want to be the best Salad resturant.

Go to 80% of professional studios - Pro-Tools. I would love it if that percentage was Sonar because I believe its a better DAW.  One of the reasons I'm running ICON is because I can perform a one-to-one import from other studios which we do all of the time. I master Colgate/ Gillette /  and many other professional comercials. I use sonar when I want to add sound effects and NON TDM mastering on my SSL board, but I have to do some magic in most cases to Pull the files from an external studios ICON board that provides me the un-edited video clips and put them in SONAR. 

From what I've seen in the most recent X1 videos - X1 has some very professional new Features.

Its very interesting how much people really read what I post.  Even if they pick it apart Thats cool.  Nice forum Cake.

John T

The marketing wizards at IBM once determined, all you have to do is get 3% of the potential population to buy into your idea/product and you're on your way to market domination.

And then Microsoft completely ate IBM's lunch in the computer business, and they spent a few years mainly living off making crap phones. It's a miracle they're still round at all.

AT&T uses TONS of IBM servers and mainframes. Microsoft does not make servers or anything like that.   IBM has a different customer base than Microsoft.  Many of the IBM servers we use cost upwards to 300K each. Thats a whole lot of Windows 7s. 
 
THats where I hope Cakewalk and X1 is going. I hope they will start catering more to the companies and individuals with $300K wallets.  There are tons of them out there around the world.  I work with them all of the time. For some reason another DAW maker (not going to mention their name anymore) has a bedroom entry version (around $199) up to a full blown studio ($500K) version requiring proprietary HD configurations.  
 
I also realize that most $300K+ studios don't spend much time in forums like this so we arent going to see them post much. I normally don't do forums because I don't have time, but I did see the blurb about X1 and decided to come to the forum to take a peek.
 
I know that the X1 DAW is going to be great.

John T


No, indeed, IBM has recovered well. I was just pointing out that the given example doesn't hold up that well.

Ahh yes, ok. 
 
Go Cakewalk go.  X1 looks good.  I can't wait to check it out.

gtgarner

If I have Protools (ICON) and Sonar - There is no reason for Live or anything else. Period

You wrote that line I responded to as though there was something wrong with those applications. There isn't. You might not be the target market but that is a different issue.

People only want improvements over staffveiw because its there and weak.  If Sonar didn't have staffview in the first place, then the push might not be there.

But it is there. Clearly it would not make sense to remove it but more importantly, as Cakewalk use it in their marketing to promote Sonar, I think they have a minimum responsibility to keep it up to date.

Protools (DAW) does not have video features.  You have to perfect your video features "Before" importing it into Protools. Pro-tools and Sonar are just about neck and neck concerning video features.

Sorry but this is completely wrong. Pro Tools is far ahead video wise compared to Sonar. I have a really hard time believing you work on commercials after you make a comment like that. I also have a hard time believing you are a coder if you think that improving one area automatically means processing load increase even if that feature is not used.

Pro-Tools is starting to do what I thougt Cake would eventually do which is merge (or get bought out) by other #1 companies like AVID (video excellence in high end video editing).

Pro Tools is a DAW. Digidesign was bought by Avid in 1994. That is 16 years ago! I really don't think you have any idea what you are talking about.

THe McDonalds analogy.  Don't change what you do best is my point. Don't change the price of what got you to where you are for your customers.  If you want to add on something like a salad to the menu, then let people buy that as an add-on - like finale.  Just like McDonalds did.  McDonalds does not want to be the best Salad resturant.

No but they do offer salads and Sonar has a staff view.

Go to 80% of professional studios - Pro-Tools. I would love it if that percentage was Sonar because I believe its a better DAW.  One of the reasons I'm running ICON is because I can perform a one-to-one import from other studios which we do all of the time. I master Colgate/ Gillette /  and many other professional comercials.

You master commercials? Commercials get mixed and they are ready to air. Again, I don't think you have any idead what you are talking about.

I use sonar when I want to add sound effects and NON TDM mastering on my SSL board, but I have to do some magic in most cases to Pull the files from an external studios ICON board that provides me the un-edited video clips and put them in SONAR.

"Pull files from an external studios ICON board"? Again, I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about. The ICON is just a control surface. A glorified mouse in essence. Your terminology is so off I don't believe you are both a coder and use Pro Tools with an ICON.

Why would you use Sonar to add sound effects? Pro Tools is MUCH better at this. Either through the workspace directly or by using any of the integrated sample library systems like NetMix or whatever. One great thing about Pro Tools, especially if you work on commercials, is that you can drop a sample on the right sport video wise as the video will move along when you drag. Sonar doesn't do this making any audio to video work tedious and time consuming in Sonar.

As for non TDM plugins, there is RTAS (90% if not more of all VST plugins have RTAS versions). And of course there is the FXpansion VST to RTAS wrapper.

Its very interesting how much people really read what I post.  Even if they pick it apart Thats cool.

I think dissect might be  a better word. ;-)

UnderTow

gtgarner


Here is a picture of my studio room #3 video editing.

Video editing? Strange... every single video editing suite I have ever been to had a CRT screen... and a pen tablet... Methinks you are misinformed on the purpose of that room.

Go to the following link and you will find  "Another Country" among the studios pictures.

http://www.digidesign.com/xtras/iconStudios.cfm

I made some upgrades and Sonar now has dual 22 inch setup by the window.  Sonar X1 is going to work absolutely great there.

Studio #2 is SSL / Sonar only.  My avitar over there on the left is Studio #2.   Sonar X1 is going to work absolutely great there also.

Except it doesn't look anything like the pictures of Studio 2 on the "Another Country" site. Strange that... And what is also strange is that those boards in there look remarkably like ICONs or D-Commands. Nothing like anything SSL makes. Weird... WHat protocol is the ICON/D-Command using to talk to Sonar?

Studio #1 is full ICON.

Bravo. You got something right.

Hey by the way... how come your name doesn't show up on the Another Country site? Another strange thing...  A lot of shenanigans going on at that studio...

 
UnderTOW - Can you please provide more information concerning  SMPT integration.   

Well for one I would like to be able to set snap settings to SMPT frames. So you would have the option to chose Musical Times, Absolute Times, Time Code. That would be a start.

UnderTow

Absolute Time is SMPTE.

What "continually changing shortcuts"?

Well, hang on.

A new approach to key short cuts in the first release of their next gen version of Sonar is not "continually changing". It's been largely consistent on this front through from Pro Audio, so for well over a decade. No continuously changing there.

Secondly, it's already been stated in various videos and threads that you can still use the old Sonar key mapping if you wish. So no "continuously changing" there, either.

gtgarner

pbognar

• Apps like Live, Acid, and Fruity Loops will probably never add staff editing, because they are targeted for a specific user base (the exception being Acoustica's MixCraft which added a staff editor in version 5)

I suppose I may have a more robust need for Sonar. I'm not a bedroom producer.  I have a professional studio downtown chicago. I'm pulling for Sonar more than you know.  Even though Sonar can't touch some of the functions of my ICON board,  Pro-Tools can't touch Sonar's Music Creation DAW. There is absolutely no way that Live, Acid or Fruity loops would ever enter my studio. Also - after investigating sonars staff view, there is absolutely no way I would ever use it. Neither would I use Sonars video capabilites since its so limited. 
 
All I'm saying is that the DAW portion of Sonar is absolutely fantastic.  Cakewalk - please don't screw up the DAW with slight improvements to side apps.
 
Cakewalk - you make a great DAW. Please keep focusing on the DAW.  X1 is an excellent business move!! 
 
In 1969 McDonalds resturant put the Big Mac on its menu.  It is a brilliant long term business objective to never touch it. Same recipe and same taste for 40 + years.   Its a business move.  Go somewhere else if you want something else.  Thats the McDonalds business objective that has worked for over 40 years. 
 
If you want to be #1 then you have to beat #1 at its game or present a pheonominal alternative. Trust me - I would absolutely love to remove my ICON and Pro-Tools from my studio.  Having Cakewalk focus on staff writing or video editing is not going to help it be the #1 DAW. That would be a horrible business move. But of course selfish people aren't concerned about business. They just want what they want.   
 

In hindsight, I should not have even responded to the notion of dropping the staff view in this thread, because the discussion is buried in a thread called "Sonar X2 Wish List".  It becomes a one sided discussion, because most are going to bypass this thread, simply because of the title.
 
@gtgarner - I respect your needs in a professional environment, but Sonar is what it is.  When you say "Cakewalk - please don't screw up the DAW with slight improvements to side apps." - are you referring to the staff view?  I would not consider that a side app - it's just as germain as the PRV - just another way of looking at MIDI data.  If you don't use the staff view, don't open it.
 
Your requirements for improvements are born out from how YOU use Sonar.  There any number of "types" of users - and they all vote for Sonar with their dollars.
 
The reason I even mentioned  Live, Acid, and Fruity Loops was directed to those who were taking about the lack of need for a staff view in electronic music.  That's my fault - I should have made that clear in my reply.
 
@all - if you you are going to start adding feature requests in this thread, why not just list features you'd like to see added or improved, instead of features which should be stripped out.
 
If you'd like Sonar to take an entirely different direction - maybe you are using the wrong tool.
 
 

My wishes:
 
1. AMD Eyefinity and Nvidia Surround support. Multi-monitor has been giving way to a single, large desktop that Windows treats as a large monitor. The game developers have embraced these APIs but it would be awesome if Sonar used them as well for window placement.
 
2. CUDA and Stream support for final processing. There's a heap of power available for that final mixdown. I would love to see Sonar to put all 256+ cores to work on speedy processing.