Helpful ReplySonar to Reaper in 4 clicks (public alpha)

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Fog
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Re: Coming soon: Sonar to Reaper in 4 clicks 2018/02/03 03:32:28 (permalink)
it's interesting it may be considered "not cricket".. but it can be argued many other things use an import function.. also the fact gibson ain't doing cakewalk users any favours.
 
as long as it's not exporting the same format.. then good luck them trying to claim against it. it could be argued also that they are trying to have a monopoly on users, if they aren't providing future updates / products.
 
remember various samplers for a start allow importing..
 
also check the libs cakewalk uses to make soner.. open source  / gpl in some cases ?
 
#31
the_user_formally_known_as_glennbo
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Re: Coming soon: Sonar to Reaper in 4 clicks 2018/02/03 08:35:02 (permalink)
Fog
it's interesting it may be considered "not cricket".. but it can be argued many other things use an import function.. also the fact gibson ain't doing cakewalk users any favours.
 
as long as it's not exporting the same format.. then good luck them trying to claim against it. it could be argued also that they are trying to have a monopoly on users, if they aren't providing future updates / products.
 
remember various samplers for a start allow importing..
 
also check the libs cakewalk uses to make soner.. open source  / gpl in some cases ?
 


My guess is that it would be the "reverse engineering" clause that almost all software includes in their license agreement. In order to read a proprietary file format to convert it, there must be to some degree a bit of reverse engineering. 

Glennbo
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http://soundclick.com/glennbo
 
#32
azslow3
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Re: Coming soon: Sonar to Reaper in 4 clicks 2018/02/03 11:03:04 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby abacab 2018/02/03 12:01:55
the_user_formally_known_as_glennbo
Fog
it's interesting it may be considered "not cricket".. but it can be argued many other things use an import function.. also the fact gibson ain't doing cakewalk users any favours.
 
as long as it's not exporting the same format.. then good luck them trying to claim against it. it could be argued also that they are trying to have a monopoly on users, if they aren't providing future updates / products.
 
remember various samplers for a start allow importing..
 
also check the libs cakewalk uses to make soner.. open source  / gpl in some cases ?

My guess is that it would be the "reverse engineering" clause that almost all software includes in their license agreement. In order to read a proprietary file format to convert it, there must be to some degree a bit of reverse engineering.

For all that there is a separate thread: http://forum.cakewalk.com/Do-we-OWN-our-project-files-m3719945.aspx
In short:
 
Sonar EULA has reverse engineering clause, 3.2 and 3.5 (in the user guide version). But all that is about the Product. Do you think that YOUR cwp/wav/MIDI files are a part of the (Cakewalk) Product? Sorry, but according to 3.1 you are not allowed to even freely copy them in this case.
I mean if your are the owner of WAV/MIDI/CWP files produced by Sonar, you can do with them whatever you like. If you think that is not right, please give some reference.
 
But there is another view point... Even in case EULA had explicit statement "you are not allowed to reverse engineer the output from our program" (I have not found it in that particular EULA), such statement is void in EU. Like f.e. 4.3 in Cakewalk EULA about forbidding to transfer the license. There was several known precedents in court with attempts to avoid re-sales (based on EULA statements) or block input/output files conversion/use. All these attempts (all I aware of) have failed so far (based on EU regulations).
 
And finally (from Sir Les points): you (as converter USER) are accused by Gibson in using not legal converter to speedup YOUR information transfer out of CW format (everything converter produce you can get manually, just slower). You accuse Gibson in selling "Lifetime" support for a product and abandoning it in less then a year (they also had yearly membership, so "Lifetime" happened to be shorter then usual support period). You have invested your money and time into it and now have to recover invested time. Who you think has better chance, even (or especially) in US?
 

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#33
cool
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Re: Coming soon: Sonar to Reaper in 4 clicks 2018/02/03 16:26:18 (permalink)
Keep up the good work, azslow3!

I'm also glad to see you all here, guys. Once upon a time we talked about Sonar, trying to improve it, now we are doing the same thing with Reaper :)

English is not my native language. Apologize for any mistakes in the text.
#34
emwhy
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Re: Coming soon: Sonar to Reaper in 4 clicks 2018/02/03 19:11:23 (permalink)
Here's my update for today using the latest alpha:
 
Still no crashes, had one huge project that didn't load at all and said there 116 conversion errors, just left a blank project in Reaper, no audio or MIDI files loaded.
 
On MIDI projects I noticed that the track name in Reaper would display the name of the soft synth that had been patched on the original track in SONAR. Since the alpha can't replicate synths or effects yet this was a good sign because it at least gives you a reference point. If you had Addictive Drums on a track the track view title would also read Addictive Drums. 
 
The tempo settings match which is good. Also the clip names display as well. Given that it may be impossible to do soft synth settings this is good because at least in SONAR if you name the clip with the synth preset, the name will be displayed in Reaper as well so you can find the preset you used.
 
It did not transfer over track volume or pan settings, but not a big deal.
 
 
 
 
#35
azslow3
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Re: Coming soon: Sonar to Reaper in 4 clicks 2018/02/03 19:36:39 (permalink)
emwhy
Still no crashes, had one huge project that didn't load at all and said there 116 conversion errors, just left a blank project in Reaper, no audio or MIDI files loaded.

Thanks. I am in progress of understanding audio problems, one well known in this forum user is helping me ;)
It is good to know someone else also has problems with audio. Some problems was already eliminated today, but not yet all.
 
Possible problem with MIDI I have spotted with one of my projects an hour ago.
 

Given that it may be impossible to do soft synth settings this is good because at least in SONAR if you name the clip with the synth preset, the name will be displayed in Reaper as well so you can find the preset you used.

I will be extremely disappointed if synth transfer will not work. But so far I have everything required to restore FX/Synth, with presets. In worse case, I will have to do my own "VST scan", but I hope to avoid that.
 

It did not transfer over track volume or pan settings, but not a big deal.

but uploaded yesterday b4+ versions should transfer volume and pan envelopes.
 
Fixed volume and pan will be transfered once I transfer general routing (but note my comment in the documentation, driven the way Reaper deal with volumes, when a strip has volume envelope the slider should stay at unity, I mean Sonar volume/pan/etc current value will not be transfered in such cases).
 

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#36
emwhy
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Re: Coming soon: Sonar to Reaper in 4 clicks 2018/02/03 20:30:48 (permalink)
Follow-up to my post:
 
The project that wouldn't load had 80 plus tracks, almost all of them were in folders, many were frozen due to a lot of instances of Guitar Rig eating up CPU. All my other attempts to load projects that don't have tracks in folders work well.
 
I did load just now a 7 track MIDI project where I noted the soft synth presets on the MIDI clips and saved that way in SONAR and was able to recreate the song that way. So far everything plays back well.
 
 
#37
the_user_formally_known_as_glennbo
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Re: Coming soon: Sonar to Reaper in 4 clicks 2018/02/03 21:00:18 (permalink)
azslow3
Sonar EULA has reverse engineering clause, 3.2 and 3.5 (in the user guide version). But all that is about the Product. Do you think that YOUR cwp/wav/MIDI files are a part of the (Cakewalk) Product? Sorry, but according to 3.1 you are not allowed to even freely copy them in this case.
I mean if your are the owner of WAV/MIDI/CWP files produced by Sonar, you can do with them whatever you like. If you think that is not right, please give some reference.
 
But there is another view point... Even in case EULA had explicit statement "you are not allowed to reverse engineer the output from our program" (I have not found it in that particular EULA), such statement is void in EU. Like f.e. 4.3 in Cakewalk EULA about forbidding to transfer the license. There was several known precedents in court with attempts to avoid re-sales (based on EULA statements) or block input/output files conversion/use. All these attempts (all I aware of) have failed so far (based on EU regulations).




If a user in the US were to use your converter, they are not reverse engineering anything, they are just using a ready made tool, and since you are governed by EU regulations, there probably isn't any issue anyway.  Plus it's not like you are taking potential sales from Cake since they don't sell anything now.

Glennbo
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http://soundclick.com/glennbo
 
#38
azslow3
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Re: Coming soon: Sonar to Reaper in 4 clicks 2018/02/03 22:57:54 (permalink)
emwhy
Follow-up to my post:
 
The project that wouldn't load had 80 plus tracks, almost all of them were in folders, many were frozen due to a lot of instances of Guitar Rig eating up CPU. All my other attempts to load projects that don't have tracks in folders work well.
 
I did load just now a 7 track MIDI project where I noted the soft synth presets on the MIDI clips and saved that way in SONAR and was able to recreate the song that way. So far everything plays back well.

There are several fixed in b8 (just uploaded). But there is serious MIDI timing conversion approach change, so something previously working can be broken... Too tired for today to continue.
 
the_user_formally_known_as_glennbo
If a user in the US were to use your converter, they are not reverse engineering anything, they are just using a ready made tool, and since you are governed by EU regulations, there probably isn't any issue anyway.  Plus it's not like you are taking potential sales from Cake since they don't sell anything now.

That was my conclusion from lengthy thread and the reason to continue. Last years I am concerned about legal issues, I carefully read all EULAs for everything. So I think everything is clean there, but I am not a lower and so i put the warning.
I guess publishing ANY song is more dangerous in that respect, someone somewhere can find the rhythm and the melody so close to something else. And once I have went throw many US and EU regulations what can be the consequences, uh... they all are written by big music players lobby.
 

Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro
GA-EP35-DS3L, E7500, 4GB, GTX 1050 Ti, 2x500GB
RME Babyface Pro (M-Audio Audiophile Firewire/410, VS-20), Kawai CN43, TD-11, Roland A500S, Akai MPK Mini, Keystation Pro, etc.
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#39
Just Another Bloke
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Re: Coming soon: Sonar to Reaper in 4 clicks 2018/02/03 22:59:32 (permalink)
Latest alpha opened and copied 49 audio tracks with no conversion errors (as reported by the plug).
 
I had 53 tracks but 4 were AUX tracks and they did not get created.
 
I got an empty 50th track. And I got one pan automation on track 49 (which I do have).
 
#40
azslow3
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Re: Coming soon: Sonar to Reaper in 4 clicks 2018/02/04 08:12:53 (permalink)
Just Another Bloke
I had 53 tracks but 4 were AUX tracks and they did not get created.

Tracks without clips are skipped for now. Till I convert routing. That stay second in the priority list, right after FXes.
 

I got an empty 50th track. And I got one pan automation on track 49 (which I do have).

Empty track is some "system" track. When not empty, it is populated with some envelopes (and then visible after conversion). I have not analyzed what it is.
 

Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro
GA-EP35-DS3L, E7500, 4GB, GTX 1050 Ti, 2x500GB
RME Babyface Pro (M-Audio Audiophile Firewire/410, VS-20), Kawai CN43, TD-11, Roland A500S, Akai MPK Mini, Keystation Pro, etc.
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#41
Just Another Bloke
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Re: Coming soon: Sonar to Reaper in 4 clicks 2018/02/04 17:56:49 (permalink)
I am reasonably happy with the results so far.  
#42
emwhy
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Re: Coming soon: Sonar to Reaper in 4 clicks 2018/02/04 21:12:19 (permalink)
I did get a smaller project to open and the volume and pan info was transferred to Reaper. Make sure when you play back that Reaper is set to Trim/Read or Read to see the changes reflected in the envelope curves. So far so good with testing this weekend!!
 
#43
dubdisciple
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Re: Coming soon: Sonar to Reaper in 4 clicks 2018/02/04 22:24:29 (permalink)
If i had to guess, you would likely lose a court case of this in the US. On the other hand that case is not likely to come. If you attempted this with an active product like Ableton live there would be a better chance to actually test the legality. In this forum you will get positive encouragement becsuse this forum has a history of leaning towards legal loopholes if it benefits them. Not a critiscism but an observation based on several precedents. I highly doubt Gibson cares if someone allows sonar files to be read by anoyjer product since they have bigger financial concerns that would not be even partially fixed via litigation over this.
#44
abacab
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Re: Coming soon: Sonar to Reaper in 4 clicks 2018/02/04 23:01:21 (permalink)
dubdisciple
If i had to guess, you would likely lose a court case of this in the US. On the other hand that case is not likely to come. If you attempted this with an active product like Ableton live there would be a better chance to actually test the legality. In this forum you will get positive encouragement becsuse this forum has a history of leaning towards legal loopholes if it benefits them. Not a critiscism but an observation based on several precedents. I highly doubt Gibson cares if someone allows sonar files to be read by anoyjer product since they have bigger financial concerns that would not be even partially fixed via litigation over this.



The end user owns the content that they have created with a software product.  It is a separate issue from the software license agreement.  I don't think anybody would disagree with this statement.
 
Having ongoing access to that content should not be considered a loophole, but rather a right of ownership!
 
Nothing that I have seen discussed in this thread, and others, seems to imply in any way that recovering one's creative works from a proprietary file format infringes on any copyrights or patents of the software application owner. 
 
I use LibreOffice rather than Microsoft Office, and it can open MS Word and Excel files.  Sometimes not perfect, but it is nice to know that if Microsoft went out of business tomorrow, I could still read my files...

DAW: CbB; Sonar Platinum, and others ... 
#45
Just Another Bloke
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Re: Coming soon: Sonar to Reaper in 4 clicks 2018/02/04 23:24:26 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby abacab 2018/02/04 23:30:00
John Fogerty won his case, George Harrison did not.
 
If it went to a U.S. court (highly unlikely) it would come down to the ability of a judge/jury to understand that Alexy is not reverse engineering the software (the UI or it's internal logic on how to create tracks, processing logic such as exports etc ad-auseum). He is primarily extracting user owned/created content (i.e. wav files and MIDI events that do NOT belong to Cakewalk Inc.) from within the SONAR specified storage areas. Yes it could be argued that the .cwp is propriety and he may not be allowed to read it (i.e. loosely considered reverse engineering the format) but again, he is not reading it to recreate the software, but only to extract those user actions that arrived at an output (automation, pan, level, FXs/presets and routings etc.)
 
Just my .0000000000002 bitcoin.
#46
azslow3
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Re: Coming soon: Sonar to Reaper in 4 clicks 2018/02/04 23:30:40 (permalink)
dubdisciple
If i had to guess, you would likely lose a court case of this in the US.

I have not found a single good argument for such opinion. To win, Gibson has to prove that I have violated some part of EULA. Can you see any words in EULA about files PRODUCED by the software?
 
I have mentioned that I have found several related cases in EU in which big companies have lost the case. And no single one in which they won. Do you know any case in US, where extracting user own information out of proprietary format mechanical way was considered illegal?
 

Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro
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#47
azslow3
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Re: Coming soon: Sonar to Reaper in 4 clicks 2018/02/04 23:34:46 (permalink)
And for the topic of this thread: FXes are coming, with presets. But slowly, since there are many variations (on Reaper side) which I have to understand.
 
 

Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro
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#48
dubdisciple
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Re: Coming soon: Sonar to Reaper in 4 clicks 2018/02/05 00:19:53 (permalink)
Which is why i clearly said that regardless of any of our opinions it is highly unlikely Gibson pursues this. If you want a true test, attempt same thing with living product.
#49
azslow3
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Re: Coming soon: Sonar to Reaper in 4 clicks 2018/02/05 07:27:13 (permalink)
dubdisciple
Which is why i clearly said that regardless of any of our opinions it is highly unlikely Gibson pursues this. If you want a true test, attempt same thing with living product.

To make a true test, I have to travel to US first. In EU:

The person having a right to use a copy of a computer program shall be entitled, without the authorisation of the rightholder, to observe, study or test the functioning of the program in order to determine the ideas and principles which underlie any element of the program if he does so while performing any of the acts of loading, displaying, running, transmitting or storing the program which he is entitled to do.

followed by...

The authorisation of the rightholder shall not be required where reproduction of the code and translation of its form within the meaning of points (a) and (b) of Article 4(1) are indispensable to obtain the information necessary to achieve the interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, provided that the following conditions are met:
(a) those acts are performed by the licensee or by another person having a right to use a copy of a program, or on their behalf by a person authorised to do so;
(b) the information necessary to achieve interoperability has not previously been readily available to the persons referred to in point (a); and
(c) those acts are confined to the parts of the original program which are necessary in order to achieve interoperability.

One big German software company has lost at least once in attempt to avoid parsing own scripts by third party commercial firms, while the company primary income is custom scripts development for clients, I mean they could clearly prove that activity intersect with own commercial interests.
I think Ableton, Cubase, Samplitude, as German companies, will think twice before attempting to open such case.
Converter clearly fall into "interoperability" type of programs.

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#50
martins guit
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Re: Coming soon: Sonar to Reaper in 4 clicks 2018/02/05 12:58:35 (permalink)
i get this error when click open CWP
 

 
im using SONAR 7 on a windows XP could it be the problem?
 
thanks martin

 
 apologize for my english
 
martin
 
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#51
azslow3
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Re: Coming soon: Sonar to Reaper in 4 clicks 2018/02/05 14:09:35 (permalink)
martins guit
i get this error when click open CWP
 

 
im using SONAR 7 on a windows XP could it be the problem?
 
thanks martin

Definitively... The converter was developed for X2+.
Please send me example CWP (upload somewhere and send the link in PM) so I can check if I can somehow support so old versions.
 

Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro
GA-EP35-DS3L, E7500, 4GB, GTX 1050 Ti, 2x500GB
RME Babyface Pro (M-Audio Audiophile Firewire/410, VS-20), Kawai CN43, TD-11, Roland A500S, Akai MPK Mini, Keystation Pro, etc.
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#52
martins guit
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Re: Coming soon: Sonar to Reaper in 4 clicks 2018/02/05 14:12:44 (permalink)
i will pm you with a link with a CWP
 
 
 
thanks
 
martin
post edited by martins guit - 2018/02/05 15:36:19

 
 apologize for my english
 
martin
 
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#53
martins guit
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Re: Coming soon: Sonar to Reaper in 4 clicks 2018/02/05 14:41:11 (permalink)
EDIT
post edited by martins guit - 2018/02/05 15:36:38

 
 apologize for my english
 
martin
 
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#54
azslow3
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Re: Coming soon: Sonar to Reaper in 4 clicks 2018/02/05 15:27:08 (permalink)
Warning: Till you want to share the project with the world, I recommend remove the links from this forum...
 
But thanks, I will check what I can do.

Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro
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#55
martins guit
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Re: Coming soon: Sonar to Reaper in 4 clicks 2018/02/05 15:37:51 (permalink)
thanks azslow3
 
i pm you did you receive it?
 
many thanks
 
martin

 
 apologize for my english
 
martin
 
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#56
azslow3
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Re: Coming soon: Sonar to Reaper in 4 clicks 2018/02/05 15:59:15 (permalink)
martins guit
i pm you did you receive it?

Sure!
Not only that, you can download just uploaded b9 now (from the same "secret" place...).
It can work with that Sonar7 project file
 
But once things become complex (more features are supported in conversion), I guess you are the only one who can report problems with so old version.
 
Happy testing!
 
PS. Noel was mentioning that there are many versioned chunks. I still do not get it. I have created parser on X2. It was working fine for SPlat (apart from some new parts) and it is working with Sonar 7 after tiny fix (removing some information from "essential" list for converter, since it was not in old cwp). 

Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro
GA-EP35-DS3L, E7500, 4GB, GTX 1050 Ti, 2x500GB
RME Babyface Pro (M-Audio Audiophile Firewire/410, VS-20), Kawai CN43, TD-11, Roland A500S, Akai MPK Mini, Keystation Pro, etc.
www.azslow.com - Control Surface Integration Platform for SONAR, ReaCWP, AOSC and other accessibility tools
#57
martins guit
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Re: Coming soon: Sonar to Reaper in 4 clicks 2018/02/05 16:10:23 (permalink)
thanks azslow3
 
very appreciate!!

 
 apologize for my english
 
martin
 
CAKEWALK BY BANDLAB
windows 10 x64bit,i7-6700,12G-ram-DDR-4
roland-quad capture,tascam us122l,
NTK Rode mic,Apex 160 mic,JBL & JVC speakers
#58
martins guit
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Re: Coming soon: Sonar to Reaper in 4 clicks 2018/02/05 16:30:10 (permalink)
i opened a 30 tracks project just fine..
 
great work azslow3!!!!

 
 apologize for my english
 
martin
 
CAKEWALK BY BANDLAB
windows 10 x64bit,i7-6700,12G-ram-DDR-4
roland-quad capture,tascam us122l,
NTK Rode mic,Apex 160 mic,JBL & JVC speakers
#59
jerrypettit
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Re: Coming soon: Sonar to Reaper in 4 clicks 2018/02/06 12:32:49 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby abacab 2018/02/06 14:21:54
What a great idea, and I hope more DAW manufacturers will do this.  I worry about backup issues.
 
Retired lawyer here, and I can't imagine ever getting in trouble over any "illegality" of it.  Who would gripe besides Gibson?  I'll bet if you asked nicely, their lawyers would send you a letter saying "Go for it!" in any event.
#60
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