bump

I wonder ... what other major function is so lacking in Sonar 8? Session Drummer is kind of lame but there are many other VST's to choose from for that. Unfortunately Sibelius and Finale are not VST's.

I'd love it if you could use Finale as a plugin somehow, and disable cakewalk's staff view. Don't know how it'd work, but I get sick of doing all my work in Finale, and then having to open the midi in sonar and set up all the softsynths again. And then messing around with automation.

+1000000
As in many other threads through the years , I totally agree. This is the one and only deficiency in Sonar that has kept me peeping at the competitors, mainly Cubase. I started with Sonar 3. Six updates, six disappointments in this matter. I truly wouldn't like to go thorugh the process of learning a new DAW, but a seventh disappointment will probably force me to.


Kind regards,
wb

Yea, this is the most interesting thread on this forum, in my book, because Sonar is very easy to learn out of all the other DAWs that I have and use. The staff view needs work for printing jobs as well as inputing notes. Maybe Cakewalk is checking these posts out as we read them.

Hi-

I wouldn't change DAWs on the basis of the lack of notation features, but I do hope they're improved in the not-too-distant future.

Many of us have lobbied for this for a long time. It can't hurt to post your FR again here.

-Susan

I appreciate that, but I just can't see switching DAWs on the basis of notation features alone. SONAR has come so far in terms of MIDI editing tools (for me) that it's a relative joy to use now. I use Finale 2009 when SONAR falls short.

-Sisan

As I have said before I bought Cubase 5 because I needed to be able to handle triplets for a notation job! I would much rather have put the money towards a Cake/Roland interface.

ORIGINAL: Susan G

I appreciate that, but I just can't see switching DAWs on the basis of notation features alone. SONAR has come so far in terms of MIDI editing tools (for me) that it's a relative joy to use now. I use Finale 2009 when SONAR falls short.

-Sisan

The problem for me is that I input everything through point-n-click. I don't enter notes live. I'll input EVERYTHING in staff view note by note. Then tweak in piano-roll view.

What MIDI editing tools do you think SONAR has added? The staff view and even piano roll view has been basically the same for the last decade, even retaining some old "bugs."


And it's not as easy as "just use sibelius/finale." Once you take an instrument track from a true notation program, you still have to sequence it to your VST instruments.


For someone like myself who spends most of his time doing this midi sequencing, SONAR can be a down right pain. Once all the MIDI grind is done though I LOVE using SONAR for mixing/recording.

But I also don't think Cakewalk has geared SONAR to that client base. Which is a shame because I think they're going to start loosing customers who are on the fence like me. As the audio engines / work-flows / features of all the different DAWs come closer together, it's small issues like this that can make the difference for some people.

Coming at it from the other angle, tell me what SONAR has that Cubase 5 does not?

See my point :(


RE: VST Expressions
You can have 1 track of midi data and setup controllers that will switch the output of the track to different VST Channels. So for example, I can load 3 articulations in Kontakt for a string instrument (Sustain Ch1, Legato Ch2, Staccato Ch3). Compose everything on 1 track and use VSTExpression to dynamically switch the output without having to switch midi tracks. The result is seeing everything on 1 track but still getting different articulations. Kinda like using keyswitches only more versatile.

This is a very powerful tool for those who use a lot of the high end orchestral libraries and can do much more than I can explain here :)

We can't let this thread slip into oblivion until we are sure that the Cakewalk "powers-that-be" have seen it.

Should we report it??? he he

ORIGINAL: Susan G
And yes, I see your point, which is why I've been asking for improvements to the Staff View along with everyone else here for years! In the meantime, I chose to go with Finale rather than switching DAWs, that's all. If like you I entered everything in Staff View note by note, I can safely say I wouldn't have been using SONAR (and Cakewalk before it) for all these years, because in that case it wouldn't have been the right DAW for me.

I suppose you use Finale for scoring and printing music you've made and finished in Sonar, right? It's fine if that suits your needs, but switching to a separate notation program at that stage is not what I'm looking for. I want to be able to edit music - that is: midi data - in a notation environment while creating it. Partly traditional notation is the clearest way for me to perceive music visually, partly it's a question of... well, "atmosphere": working with knobs, numerical values, graphs, all kind of parameters etc. is a very technical approach. There's nothing wrong with that, but to be able to feel comfortable, I personally need a more "musical" approach to compensate for all this technology. I need an environment where every element reminds me of the fact that it is music, not technology I'm woriking with. And this more musical approach is a staff notation where I can edit music as flexibly as in the piano roll. And make at least simple printable scores for musicians.

As the staff view in Sonar is implemented now, I almost never bother to even open it, since it's so clumsy and useless for any kind of editing.



Kind regards,
wb

ORIGINAL: Susan G

Why are you asking me about this [again]? How many times do I have to say I want to see SONAR's SV/notation improved?

-Susan

??? I wasn't actually asking you anything; the question mark was more rethorical, pointing out that I can't possibly be sure exactly how you use Finale. Neither did I polemize against you, nor criticize you or, least of all, question your desire to see Sonar's staff view improved. And I certainly did not do it "again".

I only wanted to tell that to me, a separate notation program is not the solution, whereas it seems to be at least a workaround for you. Can't see why this upsets you.


Kind regards,
wb

I got a call from Cakewalk a year or so ago asking me specifically what can be improved in Sonar. Perhaps they called me because I've been using Sonar since Cakewalk for DOS. We talked about the staff view and I mentioned some of the things that could be improved. So far, the only improvement made was to add the track parameters to the right side of the staff view. So that's good.

I've never expected it to be, nor even wanted it to be like a full-fledged notation program such as Sibelius. That is not Sonar's purpose. But after 15 years of not being able to handle correctly the visual display of tied triplets, it is disconcerting.

My guess is 75% of Sonar's user base don't even read music. This is fine, except that with Cakewalk always touting Sonar as the "professional" program, well, every pro musician I've worked with reads music. If Cakewalk put half as much brainpower into developing and enhancing the MIDI/Notation side of the program as they do into the audio, Sonar could be a great professional program. As an analogy, take Photoshop. It is built for professional photographers. Of course those with less talent, knowledge and training can still use it, but professionals will also be able to do what they need with it. If only Cakewalk's vision for Sonar was like that: If it is really a pro program, It should satisfy what trained professional musicians know and do with it and then add/strengthen those features.

In all the years I've used Sonar and Pro Audio, there is usually at least one very annoying display bug that seems to be in every version. A professional program would not have that. Yes, there are always bugs, but in a pro program they are rarely encountered.

Perfection is unattainable so I don't expect perfection. But it would be nice if:

1. The staff view could handle all triplets, tied or untied, correctly.
2. It would be possible to change the track that has the the focus in the event list.
3. Midi features were added, such as being able to apply contrary motion to a selected melodic phrase and being able to generate a 12-tone matrix from a given 12-tone row. (not likely).

Jerry Gerber
(for samples of my work go to http://www.jerrygerber.com/gerber043009samples.htm

ORIGINAL: Waldemar Brisk
... switching to a separate notation program at that stage is not what I'm looking for. I want to be able to edit music - that is: midi data - in a notation environment while creating it. Partly traditional notation is the clearest way for me to perceive music visually, partly it's a question of... well, "atmosphere": working with knobs, numerical values, graphs, all kind of parameters etc. is a very technical approach. There's nothing wrong with that, but to be able to feel comfortable, I personally need a more "musical" approach to compensate for all this technology. I need an environment where every element reminds me of the fact that it is music, not technology I'm woriking with. And this more musical approach is a staff notation where I can edit music as flexibly as in the piano roll. And make at least simple printable scores for musicians.

As the staff view in Sonar is implemented now, I almost never bother to even open it, since it's so clumsy and useless for any kind of editing.



Kind regards,
wb

This is exactly why I need usable notation.

ORIGINAL: vintagevibe

ORIGINAL: Waldemar Brisk
... switching to a separate notation program at that stage is not what I'm looking for. I want to be able to edit music - that is: midi data - in a notation environment while creating it. Partly traditional notation is the clearest way for me to perceive music visually, partly it's a question of... well, "atmosphere": working with knobs, numerical values, graphs, all kind of parameters etc. is a very technical approach. There's nothing wrong with that, but to be able to feel comfortable, I personally need a more "musical" approach to compensate for all this technology. I need an environment where every element reminds me of the fact that it is music, not technology I'm woriking with. And this more musical approach is a staff notation where I can edit music as flexibly as in the piano roll. And make at least simple printable scores for musicians.

As the staff view in Sonar is implemented now, I almost never bother to even open it, since it's so clumsy and useless for any kind of editing.



Kind regards,
wb

This is exactly why I need usable notation.

Thank you both for those comments.
All we want is usable notation function.
We don't want Finale features in Sonar. That is not what Sonar is. Sonar is a DAW, but in my
mind a DAW does need usable notation/staff view features. I still find it hard to believe after
all this time that the makers of Sonar haven't at least fixed the triplet bug.

Anyway I'm doing my part keeping this thread alive.

Alex, Noel, Brandon, Seth are you reading this thread.

Don't disappoint us loyal Cakewalk users this time.


Ed