vintagevibe
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RE: Staff View
2009/05/08 18:26:34
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ORIGINAL: KeithLuedke
<soapbox>
What I'm hearing, from a 'get it down' -- workflow, right?? -- and clean it later. That's what composition is all about. I'm sure there are an army of us on this forum well-trained in scoring, orchestrating, charting, as a --get this--- WORKFLOW. We don't arm tracks to record, we don't split audio into myriad subparticles, retune vocals, align beats...
We grab a pencil and quickly write 4/4 100bpm repeat 4x-- |: EmAdd9 | A maj :| or whatever sort of shorthand that works. WORKFLOW
I hand that to a keyboard player, and he goes.. "ok, gotcha" WORKFLOW
I scribble a few words below the chords and say "here you go"...we'll grab the melody line on the next pass scratch WORKFLOW
If there is a Sonar God, and Sonar God understands how guys like me do charting, then we're onto the next level of integration into the real workflow of composition. I imagine a 'Chart View' where you have a front-end settings (patch build for all your connected devices --- B3 w/ 20% leslie, Guitar Patch 0014 - Clean Chorus Strat -- Main Voc Mic pan 5% left, 15% Plate, (etc)
And off we go....
Selecting the B3 'track', I play a EmAdd9 defined as a Whole Note, then an A Maj as Whole Note ---- we build the framework...the Chart.
At bar 18 we insert a Settings Event (like pressing F11), and we change our patches to XXXXX.
Now.... imagine what that export would look like, from a deliverable perspective. Exporting Full Score, Parts, Engineering Outline, etc.
I'm not complaining, here...what I'm stating on record, is that there is still a gap between product and production, and there may always be. I just LOVE the idea of frontloading an engineering outline, plugging all my prog changes, core data, etc...up front. Even moreso, after 50 layers of stuff going on all over the place...where the F did I change the setting that is now totally buried *somewhere*. Believe me, I'm faster than it requires to find it, but that's still a rathole...distraction....from the music/workflow.
And by the way, if you've *ever* tried charting in Finale. It's not pretty....*EXTREEEEEMELY* complex (workflow breakdown) using hidden layers, all kinds of bs.....please stop saying "use Sibelius or Finale". I have, and i do. Nothing beats pencil/paper to date for workflow.
</soapbox>
A "charting view". What a great idea!
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Susan G
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RE: Staff View
2009/05/08 21:02:26
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How many people filled out the notation survey that Cakewalk did a while back? That would be interesting to know. I know I did. -Susan
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pianodano
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RE: Staff View
2009/05/08 22:30:46
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ORIGINAL: vintagevibe
ORIGINAL: tarsier
even if it's only an expression of solidarity. Mere bumps
Very well. Consider this an expression of solidarity rather than a mere bump. 
Seriously, I love composing using notation and would buy a Sonar upgrade even if the only new feature was improved notation along the lines of what has been discussed in this thread.
Same here. I haven't upgraded since version 6 but notation improvements would make me upgrade right away,
Me too. I am staying with 6 until something serious happens to make midi and scoring "more better". Real improvements please. In fact, whenever I see the input quantize button on a track it makes me want to roll back to 5 or maybe even 4 so I'm not constantly reminded that I actually paid for such a useless (imho) improvement.
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InstrEd
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RE: Staff View
2009/05/08 23:24:38
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ORIGINAL: Susan G
How many people filled out the notation survey that Cakewalk did a while back?
That would be interesting to know. I know I did.
-Susan
And I hope by now you know I did I really have my fingers crossed this time. Wish I had the time to sign up to be a beta tester for what is in the works. ( I know I might now get picked ). Bad timing that is all. Ed
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some1namedjeff
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RE: Staff View
2009/05/09 03:59:30
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Overture looks very interesting! It probably didn't kick off because Finale and Sibelius were both relatively established, and Cakewalk didn't bring anything new to the market. I think the developers are so hyper-focused on streamlining and adding more to the 'cool' aspects of Sonar that they forget they even have a staff view. It's depressing! Why is the staff view even there if it's so crappy and buggy that nobody wants to use it. I say Sonar should either improve it, or get rid of it. If they get rid of it, they'll get rid of a lot of customers, and that will be their loss.
post edited by some1namedjeff - 2009/05/09 04:10:19
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vintagevibe
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RE: Staff View
2009/05/09 19:32:20
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ORIGINAL: some1namedjeff
Sonar should either improve it, or get rid of it. If they get rid of it, they'll get rid of a lot of customers, and that will be their loss.
their loss.
There's no reason to get rid of it. Just improve it.
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sergiobklyn
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RE: Staff View
2009/05/12 12:08:38
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Has anyone heard from Cakewalk regarding the staff improvements?
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vanceen
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RE: Staff View
2009/05/12 12:26:59
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Just to toss something into this dialogue...
I suspect a real issue for Staff View improvement would be getting and keeping the technical skills within Cakewalk to do the job well.
Staff notation is pretty simple for standard stuff, such as what you can do with SONAR. If you want to get more flexible, you have to get a heck of a lot more detailed knowledge of the rules of notation. Not every musician has this detailed knowledge.
To implement a Staff View that would compete with Finale or Sibelius would require Cakewalk to have staff who are real notation experts. That might not be all that easy to do in practical terms.
Not to be a wet blanket, but I would prefer to see improvements in almost any aspect of SONAR but the Staff View. It all comes down to value added per investment dollar, and I suspect notation improvement is not going to score high on that metric.
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InstrEd
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RE: Staff View
2009/05/12 12:40:52
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Not to be a wet blanket, but I would prefer to see improvements in almost any aspect of SONAR but the Staff View. It all comes down to value added per investment dollar, and I suspect notation improvement is not going to score high on that metric. But the competition has already usable staff view. Most of us just want functional staff/notation from Sonar. Really it is sad that Sonar hasn't addressed this short coming for 8 versions and counting. Ed
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vintagevibe
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RE: Staff View
2009/05/12 13:06:01
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ORIGINAL: vanceen
Just to toss something into this dialogue...
I suspect a real issue for Staff View improvement would be getting and keeping the technical skills within Cakewalk to do the job well.
Staff notation is pretty simple for standard stuff, such as what you can do with SONAR. If you want to get more flexible, you have to get a heck of a lot more detailed knowledge of the rules of notation. Not every musician has this detailed knowledge.
To implement a Staff View that would compete with Finale or Sibelius would require Cakewalk to have staff who are real notation experts. That might not be all that easy to do in practical terms.
Not to be a wet blanket, but I would prefer to see improvements in almost any aspect of SONAR but the Staff View. It all comes down to value added per investment dollar, and I suspect notation improvement is not going to score high on that metric.
You don't understand this thread (Or the many others like it). Read it. I'll say this yet again. NO ONE HAS EVER WANTED SONAR TO HAVE NOR HAS ANYONE EVER ASKED FOR CAKEWALK TO IMPLEMENT A "Staff View that would compete with Finale or Sibelius ". It never fails that people believe that the features they personally don't need should not be included. We want Sonar to have notation as good as Cubase, Protools 8 or Logic. It currently does not. I should lobby Cakewalk to get rid of all that useless looping crap.
post edited by vintagevibe - 2009/05/12 13:16:50
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WDI
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RE: Staff View
2009/05/12 13:06:39
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ORIGINAL: vanceen
Just to toss something into this dialogue...
I suspect a real issue for Staff View improvement would be getting and keeping the technical skills within Cakewalk to do the job well.
Staff notation is pretty simple for standard stuff, such as what you can do with SONAR. If you want to get more flexible, you have to get a heck of a lot more detailed knowledge of the rules of notation. Not every musician has this detailed knowledge.
To implement a Staff View that would compete with Finale or Sibelius would require Cakewalk to have staff who are real notation experts. That might not be all that easy to do in practical terms.
Not to be a wet blanket, but I would prefer to see improvements in almost any aspect of SONAR but the Staff View. It all comes down to value added per investment dollar, and I suspect notation improvement is not going to score high on that metric. Well, I'm sure it's hard to please everybody since Sonar is probably used by a diverse crowd in many different ways. However, if your going to implement a feature it should be done in the most professional manner. One audience that uses Sonar are composers who would appreciate improvements in notation. Some competitive products of Sonar, ProTools 8 and Cubase 4, have introduced notation improvements so I'm guessing there is an audience. Going back to the idea of if your going to have a feature in your product it should be done in a professional manner, lets look at CD burning implemented in Sonar 7. That was a huge let down. Why was that feature even implemented if it is not even going to have the most basic features of Windows Media Player. It must have been marketing. The only reason I mention this is because I just reviewed Presonus new DAW Studio One which looks like it has fairly professional CD burning features. This kind of stuff makes Cakewalk look like a joke.
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vintagevibe
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RE: Staff View
2009/05/12 15:55:52
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ORIGINAL: WDI
Going back to the idea of if your going to have a feature in your product it should be done in a professional manner, lets look at CD burning implemented in Sonar 7. That was a huge let down. Why was that feature even implemented if it is not even going to have the most basic features of Windows Media Player. It must have been marketing. The only reason I mention this is because I just reviewed Presonus new DAW Studio One which looks like it has fairly professional CD burning features. This kind of stuff makes Cakewalk look like a joke.
I'm a big fan of Cakewalk but I agree that is where they miss the mark on several things. Drum maps, Session Drummer, the playlist ... there are things in Sonar that are severely under developed. They get them on the feature list and forget about them.
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vmw
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RE: Staff View
2009/05/13 00:37:08
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ORIGINAL: vanceen
ot to be a wet blanket, but I would prefer to see improvements in almost any aspect of SONAR but the Staff View. It all comes down to value added per investment dollar, and I suspect notation improvement is not going to score high on that metric.
I take it you don't use the staff view - I'm curious to know how you do harmonies and orchestration arrangements using presumably the piano roll view?
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prog_head
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RE: Staff View
2009/05/13 01:03:53
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Add me to the list of people wanting notation improved. I remember being so excited with Cakewalk for Windows 1.0 back in 1991 because it was going to have notation. It has not been improved much at all since then. They added chord symbols and a few other pieces since then but nothing different at all with the notation. It is about time!!!
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Mark Ellis
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RE: Staff View
2009/05/13 02:28:00
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I've been a Cakewalk user since it was DOS. I registered on the forum today to bump this thread. Also, I'm amazed no one has commented on the fact that the staff view doesn't scroll! I like to notate things that I can sight read and record on guitar. Useless when you can't see the next bar coming up...
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dbh
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RE: Staff View
2009/05/13 05:36:06
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On a tangent from scrolling I would like the staff view to use the same zoom features as track/piano roll ..
I use the Ctrl + arrows feature a lot and it's annoying that it doesn't work in Staff view.
Cheers,
dbh
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CucamongaBlues
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RE: Staff View
2009/05/13 12:26:42
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ORIGINAL: dbh
On a tangent from scrolling I would like the staff view to use the same zoom features as track/piano roll ..
I use the Ctrl + arrows feature a lot and it's annoying that it doesn't work in Staff view.
Cheers,
dbh
+1 on the zooming.
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Waldemar Brisk
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RE: Staff View
2009/05/13 16:07:03
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The staff view deficiencies are legion, obvious and repeatedly discussed on this forum. At this stage, I therefore see no point in particularily pointing (!) out for instance triples, zooming or any other specific feature: the staff view and notation feature as a whole needs a fundamental and overall improvement in Sonar. As it is now, there's only a fundament, not more than that really -- but that's a good start. The only question now is: will Cakewalk, after so many years of neglect, finally give priority to this matter? If so, they'll probably have to hire some new co-workers in their team, since this kind of competence obviously left the building many years ago, probably along with the earlier mentioned notation program Overure. (If it wouldn't, we would surely have seen improvement in Sonar's notation features through the years, and Sonar would be competitive with other DAWs even in notation.) And, to continue my lecture, hiring new employees and suddenly prioritizing notation requires a lot of rethinking and changed attitudes. The company's whole concept of a modern DAW will have to be questioned: should it or should it not include true and complete midi sequencing? So far the priority seems to have been complete recording and studio features supported by strong, but not complete midi features. Don't want to shut anybodys mouth, but instead of enumerating myriads of longed-for singular notation improvements, isn't it easier just to say: Logic, Cubase, Pro Tools, Samplitude? It's all there. Just pick the best from them all. Otherwise, I'll pick one of them. Kind regards, wb
post edited by Waldemar Brisk - 2009/05/13 18:24:22
Miracles done while you wait; the impossible takes slightly longer.
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some1namedjeff
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RE: Staff View
2009/05/18 20:46:37
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Don't want to shut anybodys mouth, but instead of enumerating myriads of longed-for singular notation improvements, isn't it easier just to say: Logic, Cubase, Pro Tools, Samplitude?
That's just not good enough for me. Switching software is not easier by any stretch. There's a steep learning curve with any of them. This feature is the only feature that Cakewalk has consistently avoided. At this point it's just a novelty feature to bolster the surface appearance of Sonar. I, and everyone else who posted on this thread are valued customers. It's not my concern whether Cakewalk can afford it or want to do it. There is a need for it, and they have not met that need. The staff view has been horribly neglected for over a decade, and we all are obviously unsatisfied. Just once, I want Cakewalk to stop adding features and fixing things that aren't nearly as antiquated, and focus on the biggest problem with their software.
post edited by some1namedjeff - 2009/05/18 21:19:48
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Waldemar Brisk
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RE: Staff View
2009/05/19 04:41:49
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Don't want to shut anybodys mouth, but instead of enumerating myriads of longed-for singular notation improvements, isn't it easier just to say: Logic, Cubase, Pro Tools, Samplitude?
That's just not good enough for me. Switching software is not easier by any stretch. There's a steep learning curve with any of them.
You misinterpreted me. I didn't mean switching, I meant that these main competitors all have those notation features we're demanding in this thread. Therefore, there's no idea mentioning sigle requests. Rather should we say: we want Sonar to belong to this family in notation features, too. Just pick the best from them all. Steep learning curves tend to scare the s--t out of me, so out of mere necessity I am a loyal customer. But if the notation once again will be neglected in Sonar 9, then I'm very likely to switch. Why hang on, if there's no hope? Kind regards, wb
post edited by Waldemar Brisk - 2009/05/19 04:51:11
Miracles done while you wait; the impossible takes slightly longer.
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some1namedjeff
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RE: Staff View
2009/05/19 15:53:03
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Ah my bad, I apologize. You're right! 
post edited by some1namedjeff - 2009/05/19 16:01:50
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Psalmist35
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RE: Staff View
2009/05/19 16:15:31
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I'm obviously late jumping in on this band wagon (pun intended). I don't use SV often but when I do I find it frustrating. +1 from me on improvements.
Rich
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csabeevs
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Re: RE: Staff View
2010/10/04 09:21:33
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Hiya
I was wondering if any of the "Orchestrators" have found an alternate to VST Expression or notation until the new feature actually is brought to life in Sonar, since to me it seems pointless reading another 300 threads or through pages and pages of arguments on the staff view, and "how come S8.5 still does not have this or that feature".
S9 is still waaaaay to far for me to wait, and I have no intention to switch to any DAW. All I need is to achieve realistic Orchestra from the libraries I have ( EWQL etc), without needing to spend months tweaking the keyswitches and using like 10 separate tracks/ instrument.:) any advice on how to achieve this is welcome.
thx
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John
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Re: RE: Staff View
2010/10/04 09:45:35
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I am glad you resurrected this thread. We need great notation now!
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pbognar
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Re: RE: Staff View
2010/10/04 14:17:56
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John
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Re: RE: Staff View
2010/10/04 15:51:33
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Pbognar I think you are right.
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csabeevs
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Re: RE: Staff View
2010/10/04 16:03:35
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well, whatever it is, its not helping us make our lives easier..
I mean, what's the use of multi gig sized libraries and huge sets, when we spend ages tweaking the sounds and still we are nowhere compared to what such a library can offer. And I am not blaming Sonar, just trying to get frustration out of the way, so inspiration could finally take its place and I can write the pieces I want without having to think about throwing the whole set-up out of the window nearly every minute:)
I have seen C5 version of it, I know Sonar guys can make it better, and I am willing to wait for it! until then I need to find a way to find some tricks with keyswitches. So if you have any tricks guys let me know, :)
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jsaras
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Re: RE: Staff View
2010/10/04 21:03:04
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On a semi-related note, MuseScore is free (GNU, GPL license) notation package that is truly remarkable. It isn't crippled like the low-end versions of Finale or Sibelius. Check it out; www.musescore.org It exports MIDI and MusicXML files, so it's compatible with Sibelius and Finale.
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maikii
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Re:Staff View
2010/10/07 00:11:48
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I agree.
Another view that has been totally neglected, is the Lyrics View. In fact, not only has it not improved, its functionality has become far worse. (Perhaps through other changes wrecking it, but no one ever bothered to fix the problems said changes created to the Lyrics View (which yes, some of us use).
Important Views like Staff and Lyrics should not be neglected!
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John
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Re:Staff View
2010/10/07 00:34:28
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maikii
I agree.
Another view that has been totally neglected, is the Lyrics View. In fact, not only has it not improved, its functionality has become far worse. (Perhaps through other changes wrecking it, but no one ever bothered to fix the problems said changes created to the Lyrics View (which yes, some of us use).
Important Views like Staff and Lyrics should not be neglected!
You are so right! No two ways about it.
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