+1 for improved notation. As a classically trained composer I would love to be able to effectively work out ideas in the notation view. It is currently inadequate for that. Currently I live in the piano roll view (not that this is a bad thing, I do love some of the things I can do there)

Not looking for a replacement for my Finale 2009, I would still use that for serious score preparation, but would love if I could:

A) Effectively and easily enter any note type (ie tuplets) via the staff view

B) Have Sonar recognize the basic dynamics markings and convert to MIDI control messages (maybe it does already but stopped looking at the staff view when I realized it was too cumbersome to use) and

C) Be competent enough to prepare and print basic charts/parts for musicians on relatively straightforward projects

Like others, I want to stick with Sonar as I love the work flow in other areas (i.e. mixing audio and such)

And in spite of the fact that Sonar seems increasingly geared towards electronic musicians I find that I have actually benefited from this. I never thought I'd be into loops but then again I wasn't aware of the creative possibilities until I was introduced via Sonar.

Sonar is so very close to the ideal workstation as far as I'm concerned (the v8 engine improvements made for the most trouble free weekend I've had yet, about 25 hours and not one glitch).

Jon

To all those users who've complained on this forum regarding the staff view and triplet display, I strongly suggest writing Cakewalk's tech support as I have just done and complain about the problem. In fact, I will make it easy: Copy and paste my complaint and sign your name:

********************************************
Dear Support:

For the past 8 generations of Sonar, Cakewalk has never fixed the the staff view's inability to handle triplets and tied triplets correctly. Many users complain about this year after year and yet Cakewalk is unresponsive to these bug reports. Does someone at your company think that music notation and its correct display is not an important aspect of MIDI sequencing? I am not referring to published-quality notation output, that is not Sonar's job. I am referring to a basic ability to display notes correctly. Triplets and tied triplets are always triggered correctly, they just don't look right.

Are you ever going to address this?

your signature

********************************
Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com
New compositions: http://www.jerrygerber.com/gerber043009samples.htm

ORIGINAL: jsg

To all those users who've complained on this forum regarding the staff view and triplet display, I strongly suggest writing Cakewalk's tech support as I have just done and complain about the problem. In fact, I will make it easy: Copy and paste my complaint and sign your name:

********************************************
Dear Support:

For the past 8 generations of Sonar, Cakewalk has never fixed the the staff view's inability to handle triplets and tied triplets correctly. Many users complain about this year after year and yet Cakewalk is unresponsive to these bug reports. Does someone at your company think that music notation and its correct display is not an important aspect of MIDI sequencing? I am not referring to published-quality notation output, that is not Sonar's job. I am referring to a basic ability to display notes correctly. Triplets and tied triplets are always triggered correctly, they just don't look right.

Are you ever going to address this?

your signature

********************************
Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com
New compositions: http://www.jerrygerber.com/gerber043009samples.htm

This would not be enough for me. I need all types of tuplets that are not even possible in Sonar. I aslo need most of the improvements listed in the many threads about the staff view over the years. To merely fix triplet display would not help me much.

ORIGINAL: jsg

To all those users who've complained on this forum regarding the staff view and triplet display, I strongly suggest writing Cakewalk's tech support as I have just done and complain about the problem. In fact, I will make it easy: Copy and paste my complaint and sign your name:

********************************************
Dear Support:

For the past 8 generations of Sonar, Cakewalk has never fixed the the staff view's inability to handle triplets and tied triplets correctly. Many users complain about this year after year and yet Cakewalk is unresponsive to these bug reports. Does someone at your company think that music notation and its correct display is not an important aspect of MIDI sequencing? I am not referring to published-quality notation output, that is not Sonar's job. I am referring to a basic ability to display notes correctly. Triplets and tied triplets are always triggered correctly, they just don't look right.

Are you ever going to address this?

your signature

********************************

Just did it. The only correction I added was "9 generations of Cakewalk and 8 generations of Sonar". It's 17 years...

ORIGINAL: vintagevibe

This would not be enough for me. I need all types of tuplets that are not even possible in Sonar. I aslo need most of the improvements listed in the many threads about the staff view over the years. To merely fix triplet display would not help me much.




It's a start.


Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com

I've driven SONAR from Sibelius via virtual midi cables (Midi Yoke). You can work your score in Sib. Assign Sib track outputs to the virtual midi ports/channels. Make these virtual ports available as inputs in SONAR. Source the SONAR midi tracks to the virtual ports/channels. When you play the score in Sib, it sounds through SONAR. All mixing features available. I arranged my midi tracks in SONAR to match the track sequence in Sib (standard orchestra layout), so that an export from Sib would port nicely into SONAR. This isn't the best situation, but it works. I actually prefer the way the SONAR staff view works over that of Sib (aside from its notational limitations), but if you're used to using Sib, or any notation program that allows you to assign midi outs, you can use this approach.

ORIGINAL: billp
I've driven SONAR from Sibelius via virtual midi cables (Midi Yoke). You can work your score in Sib. Assign Sib track outputs to the virtual midi ports/channels. Make these virtual ports available as inputs in SONAR. Source the SONAR midi tracks to the virtual ports/channels. When you play the score in Sib, it sounds through SONAR. All mixing features available. I arranged my midi tracks in SONAR to match the track sequence in Sib (standard orchestra layout), so that an export from Sib would port nicely into SONAR. This isn't the best situation, but it works. I actually prefer the way the SONAR staff view works over that of Sib (aside from its notational limitations), but if you're used to using Sib, or any notation program that allows you to assign midi outs, you can use this approach.

Sounds like an ingenious arrangement - indeed, necessity is the mother of invention! Thanks for the tip, but on the other hand: this, if anything, shows the need of adequate notation in Sonar. We shouldn't have to spend time, energy and money on setting up such workarounds, we shouldn't have to buy expensive external programs for a feature that ought to be included in a modern professional DAW.


Kind regards,
wb

Hi tfale-

If you use Finale, you might want to check this out, too:

http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=1709922

-Susan

ORIGINAL: billp

I've driven SONAR from Sibelius via virtual midi cables (Midi Yoke). You can work your score in Sib. Assign Sib track outputs to the virtual midi ports/channels. Make these virtual ports available as inputs in SONAR. Source the SONAR midi tracks to the virtual ports/channels. When you play the score in Sib, it sounds through SONAR. All mixing features available. I arranged my midi tracks in SONAR to match the track sequence in Sib (standard orchestra layout), so that an export from Sib would port nicely into SONAR. This isn't the best situation, but it works. I actually prefer the way the SONAR staff view works over that of Sib (aside from its notational limitations), but if you're used to using Sib, or any notation program that allows you to assign midi outs, you can use this approach.

This sounds quite interesting. I've never gotten MIDI Yoke to work but it might be worth another try.

ORIGINAL: LarryAlex
At the risk of irritating people and getting tarred and feathered and run out of town, I am putting this important thread back on page one.

At the risk of standing out as a boring squarehead I think we've made ourselves clear enough even without annoying our fellow forum members with further bump messages. There are members on this forum who not only resist every notation improvement, but even try to prove that such improvements represent a mathematical-ontological impossibility. Since all of them this time have been polite enough not to intervene in this debate, let's not provoke them to do it.

Ergo: may this thread live as long as somebody still has something to add to it, even if it's only an expression of solidarity. Mere bumps are of no use, though, I think.



Kind regards,
wb

Overture was a product from cakewalk intended to be a Finale/Sibelius contender.
What's the history behind that? Why it was dropped?
Maybe cakwalk has the good intentions to improve Staff editing and things went bad?
I have the "Overture" product, now from a separated company, it`s nice but has some ugly bugs and i believe it`s a little dead it development.

Just asking.

ORIGINAL: marce

Overture was a product from cakewalk intended to be a Finale/Sibelius contender.
What's the history behind that? Why it was dropped?
Maybe cakwalk has the good intentions to improve Staff editing and things went bad?
I have the "Overture" product, now from a separated company, it`s nice but has some ugly bugs and i believe it`s a little dead it development.

Just asking.

For anyone that dont knowed about that, here is an 1999 article about it:
http://www.webdevelopersjournal.com/studio/overture.html

Im quoting a little portion:

But seriously, Cakewalk has succeeded in creating an accessible, full-featured, and very useful notation package that will please professionals with demanding notation requirements along with those who just need to make it look official. You can bang out the work and have some fun doing it. If you need it, get it - it's worth the money.

Here is the official cakewalk page for it, thanks to the wayback machine:

http://web.archive.org/web/19991012151126/cakewalk.com/Products/OV/OV2.html

and, interesting, an screenshot of it running on a Mac, too:

http://web.archive.org/web/19991012212812/cakewalk.com/Products/ScreenShots/overturescreen.gif

ORIGINAL: mmca
It's therefore very encouraging to see the views aired on this thread by quite a few others.

Let's all keep this thread on top until version 9 comes out!

This is a thread from the Music Creator forum from a while ago, but it is really helpful and I'm sure most if not all applies to PE/SE - thanks to Bill Miller...

http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=534411

<soapbox>
What I'm hearing, from a 'get it down' -- workflow, right?? -- and clean it later. That's what composition is all about. I'm sure there are an army of us on this forum well-trained in scoring, orchestrating, charting, as a --get this--- WORKFLOW. We don't arm tracks to record, we don't split audio into myriad subparticles, retune vocals, align beats...

We grab a pencil and quickly write 4/4 100bpm repeat 4x-- |: EmAdd9 | A maj :| or whatever sort of shorthand that works. WORKFLOW

I hand that to a keyboard player, and he goes.. "ok, gotcha" WORKFLOW

I scribble a few words below the chords and say "here you go"...we'll grab the melody line on the next pass scratch WORKFLOW

If there is a Sonar God, and Sonar God understands how guys like me do charting, then we're onto the next level of integration into the real workflow of composition. I imagine a 'Chart View' where you have a front-end settings (patch build for all your connected devices --- B3 w/ 20% leslie, Guitar Patch 0014 - Clean Chorus Strat -- Main Voc Mic pan 5% left, 15% Plate, (etc)

And off we go....
Selecting the B3 'track', I play a EmAdd9 defined as a Whole Note, then an A Maj as Whole Note ---- we build the framework...the Chart.

At bar 18 we insert a Settings Event (like pressing F11), and we change our patches to XXXXX.

Now.... imagine what that export would look like, from a deliverable perspective. Exporting Full Score, Parts, Engineering Outline, etc.

I'm not complaining, here...what I'm stating on record, is that there is still a gap between product and production, and there may always be. I just LOVE the idea of frontloading an engineering outline, plugging all my prog changes, core data, etc...up front. Even moreso, after 50 layers of stuff going on all over the place...where the F did I change the setting that is now totally buried *somewhere*. Believe me, I'm faster than it requires to find it, but that's still a rathole...distraction....from the music/workflow.


And by the way, if you've *ever* tried charting in Finale. It's not pretty....*EXTREEEEEMELY* complex (workflow breakdown) using hidden layers, all kinds of bs.....please stop saying "use Sibelius or Finale". I have, and i do. Nothing beats pencil/paper to date for workflow.
</soapbox>