I think you can find fault with almost anything you buy...  and the WHOLE ordeal is if it is suitable for you.

My nice car.. the gas gauge isn't linear...   does it get the mpg listed on the sticker?  How come my side view mirrors are horrid?
Well...overall, I love the car, does what I need it to do, but like Sonar, you can find advertised faults all day long.

Obviously X1 is intended to go "deeper" than 8.5+ could potentially ever go, as the product evolves.  You'd think that was obvious, but many don't see it that way and demand perfection, when this isn't a perfect world.

same like my Quick Books post, just previous.  Does the job, but could be much better.  Pick a topic or product.. will be just the same.

Notecrusher LOL I'm not sure that helps the situation here. Good point that it is.

How am I supposed to help, break into Cakewalk's office and rewrite X1?

Can we agree that we basically HAVE to upgrade if we want last years unfinished features and bugs fixed?

You see, some people say we do have to.... and other people say we don't have too... but if we don't then it can be pointed out how foolish it is to expect that the abandoned versions will ever work as they were advertised to work.

It's sort of a dilemma when you find you are expected to either be a fan of the latest version, e.g. SONAR X1, that doesn't work as advertised, or quietly settle for getting stuck with an earlier version that never worked as advertised. What kind of choice is that?

It seems like the customers that are accepting of the half baked product want everyone else to adopt the same low standards of expectation and the accepting users plan on playing an endless shell game of "yes you do" and "no you don't" in an attempt to make it seem like being upset that you paid for a broken product is unreasonable.

While not disagreeing with everything you say Mike I do take exception to "the customers that are accepting of the half baked product want everyone else to adopt the same low standards of expectation"

Despite being untalented and an amateur amongst you real 'pros', I certainly don't have  "low standards of expectation", far from it. Simple fact of the matter is, if I thought the way you seem to think I would have stopped buying Cakewalk products a long while ago.

Like the natural world isn't that how survival of the fittest works in the business world? - piss enough people off for long enough and eventually the company folds. I may buy a product and be disappointed once, I might do it twice, but I certainly wouldn't do it three times and definitely not year after year.

So no I don't agree we "have" to do anything. It may be buggy, it may in some people's opinion be a pile of steaming ......... but fact of the matter is I am free in the same way as everyone else to take my ££/$$ elsewhere.

There's only one thing that really peeves me about Cakewalk nearly enough to do that and that's their rather imaginative $->£ exchange rate. But that's another topic for another day................

Jonbouy

jm24

Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk]

SONAR X1 has probably been supported with more updates and reaching further out from initial launch than any previous incarnation. This is something we feel good about and an endeavor in which we are are continually striving to do better. It's desirable to Cakewalk and I'm sure it's desirable to users/customers (you folks!).

Nice spin. 

I will rewite this as "SONAR X1 has REQUIRED more support and more updates reaching further from initial launch than any previous incarnation.   This is something we could have avoided by not releasing beta code last december. We intend to continue to move in this direction for the benefit of all."

I think version 4 was about the same: september to june, x1 december to august (so far).


How's the work on X2 coming?  December release expected?


Obviously, I'm still disappointed.

J

I think this is totally fair from JM24 and a courageous thing to express.

Had someone from Cakewalk had said, yes this release was a turkey from the outset and we've been working hard to get back on track (which I truly believe they have), satisfied and disatisfied customers alike would be totally happy with that explanation.

To come on here and say the genuine issues and frustration they've been having are unwarranted in the light of a long line of post release fixes that have been supplied must be galling to all but the most ardent fanboi.

I believe this was yet another 'spin' from the marketing man and I don't see why it should be lauded that he deems to join us to feed another line that fails to acknowledge the genuine concern the companies paying customers have been expected to swallow since the initial release.  Yes I think JM24's reply is nearer to the truth to what the largely intelligent user base has been experiencing to a larger extent than should be acceptable to ANY customer facing company.

The sentence quoted there is just face saving talk and unsurprisingly is likely to be construed as insulting to many however one may feel about the undoubted 'nice guy' Brandon.

And for this weird notion about supporting previous incarnations, X1 IS the previous incarnation with a reworked GUI which is why it has many of the issues replicated in minute detail carried over from previous ones.  However substantial the chunk of code that has changed lets not pretend this is a new app distinct from version 8.* it's just another progression of the same product that went a step further than the company could pull off comfortably within the time, finance and resource restraints it had clearly.

That is certainly not the fault of any paying customer.  Something went wrong here whether it was to do with a business model, planning or execution it was clearly the company that messed up here, not the buyers, and yes to come on here and repeatedly say look how well we are doing 'for you' is certainly difficult to me to interpret as a 'favour' from any staff member.

X1 might be getting up to speed now but much of that is down to the fact there is still a user base here prepared to pay for it.  Not because some marketing manager can carefully use language to disguise the truth of the situation, more likely it is despite that.

Come on Cakewalk you have the core of a killer app here that we are all willing to do well, I understand Ableton were able to hold their hands up to their failings and make drastic changes to their development schedules.  Why do you with such a loyal customer base have to be so arrogant and go to such lengths appear infallible to the consternation of those users that already know otherwise?

 
Jon, in this post I'm sure that you have crystallised into words the sentiments of the silent majority.
 
I found myself nodding in agreement with every paragraph as I read it, and more poignantly, I'll bet that even the most ardent fanboi, and maybe even the odd Cakewalk staffer was too.
 
 

Yes, short memories I think is true.

For anyone that has forgotten just look at the 'issues addressed' list since X1's release.

Also remember the list is ONLY the issues so far addressed not the ones that still remain unfixed from this and previous releases.

Whether you can say it works for you and I can't see what any of the fuss is about observe that list of actual faults that have been addressed and count yourself very lucky.

This is a very frustrating company to deal with, THE most frustrating company I've ever attempted to deal with on-line, period.  A company that when I've had genuine problems with the eStore tells me at the time there is nothing wrong with the eStore, only for me to discover further down the line, yes there have been issues with the eStore but it's been migrated to a new system now.  Customer service eMails have gone unanswered for weeks I get the helpful advice to check my spam box there is nothing wrong with customer supports email response times, only to learn later on that yes there have been issues but they are sorted now, rejoice.

I have never ever successfully engaged with Customer Support via the telephone other than a few costly trans atlantic holds over a long period, again I'm told there is nothing wrong with the system 'I must have been unlucky' only to find out yesterday, yup you guessed it 'there have been issues in the past but we've migrated to a new system now'...

Yes it is complicated software that covers a lot of ground and largely does that well, and the over-reach to get the GUI revamped in X1 will probably be a great thing in the long run.  But in terms of quality control, fitness for purpose, fit and finish as well as transparency toward it's furiously loyal user base, it is clear Cakewalk could do better, MUCH better.

One more thing. How many of the updates the X1 has seen would have been implemented had this forum had been about backslapping the bakers?

John T

Jonbouy

jm24

Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk]

SONAR X1 has probably been supported with more updates and reaching further out from initial launch than any previous incarnation. This is something we feel good about and an endeavor in which we are are continually striving to do better. It's desirable to Cakewalk and I'm sure it's desirable to users/customers (you folks!).

Nice spin. 

I will rewite this as "SONAR X1 has REQUIRED more support and more updates reaching further from initial launch than any previous incarnation.   This is something we could have avoided by not releasing beta code last december. We intend to continue to move in this direction for the benefit of all."

I think version 4 was about the same: september to june, x1 december to august (so far).


How's the work on X2 coming?  December release expected?


Obviously, I'm still disappointed.

J

I think this is totally fair from JM24 and a courageous thing to express.

"Courageous"? How?

You could make your mission today figuring that out if you want.

Exactly Bristol_Jonesey (reaction on post #131)...

What I also don't like here is that a lot of complainers claim the speak on behalf of the "majority" of users and that this majority is unhappy with X1. In reality I only see a handful of complainers, but they are complaining every day, and in about every topic again and again and again and again and again..........

If the majority of uses was really unhappy, you would see a flood of new subscribers .. all complaining. But that does not happen. In reality most newcomers just have some start-up questions, and most "errors" can be solved as user errors. Even plain crashes can often be tracked down to flaky drivers or non-cooperative software (like Korg stuff).

And the claims that X1 is "unusable" from the start can be true for a small number of people, but taking the above in consideration, it is obvious most people seem to have little of no problems. The same goes for the "unstable" and constant crashes claim. Although we have seen some nasty crashes here (there is no way to deny that, and it should not be denied), surprisingly - there seems to be no overwhelming crowd of angry users that cannot use X1 because of constant crashes.

Claiming that the "majority" of the users are unhappy with X1 is -in my humble opinion- a huge exaggeration. It is a view that is liked by a few people here, but if this is a realistic view is -also in my opinion- greatly questionable.

Do I say X1 cannot and should not be improved? Of course not. Do I say there are no bugs? Nope...

Sure, things can be and should be improved. Bugs has to be solved (that's the reason for X1c is it not?). But claiming X1 is unstable and unusable 8 months long for every user is simply not true. Sometimes I get the feeling this useful forum is derailed and be-trolled by just a handful unhappy users, that want to attack anyone that does not share their "crusade against X1 and back to the old stuff" mission (well - a little bit exaggerated from my side too this time.. ).

Anyway - I am just a X1 user that has no problems using X1 on a daily base. And you know what? I think I am just one of that real majority.. The majority that thinks X1 is just a nice piece (although not perfect) of software that does what it have to do ...

John T

"Courageous"? How?

You could make your mission today figuring that out if you want.

Or you could just explain what you mean. On  the face of it, you appear to be using a definition of "courageous" that isn't in the dictionary.

Well being as YOU asked John T.....

Courageous, speaking his truth in the light of the accusations of heresy that were bound to follow from the seasick contributors that don't like the boat to rock, even just a little bit.

Jonbouy

John T

"Courageous"? How?

You could make your mission today figuring that out if you want.

Or you could just explain what you mean. On  the face of it, you appear to be using a definition of "courageous" that isn't in the dictionary.

Well being as YOU asked John T.....

Courageous, speaking his truth in the light of the accusations of heresy that were bound to follow from the seasick contributors that don't like the boat to rock, even just a little bit.

Oh, right.

You don't know what "heresy" means either, is the main thing I've gleaned from that. It's still not making a whole lot of sense.

Yes, I know. Problems with it:

1/ What's novel, exactly, about his position? Day in, day out, we see the same stuff said on these forums.

2/ What "system of beliefs" is being challenged?

More than 30 version of sonar through 8.5.3

Any company person describing what they are supposed to do as valiant is annoying.
 
Given the number of issues discovered since release X1b, with all hot fixes, should have been the public initial release.
 
I did not think a new UI would result in extra clicks everywhere, ugly giant icons, hidden shortcuts, and reduced flexibility.
 
I did not expect the newest version of Sonar to cost me about 1/2 of previous versions. I now think of it as an apology for the new FUI. And that the initial release what a beta. The extra 80 bucs to go for a larger monitor.
 
I have been advocating for increased upgrade fees and for yearly subscriptions instead of version subscriptions, which have been sorta yearly. (Yearly subscriptions spread income over the year. Customers get a year's value. No need for upgrade specials,...) Charge me 200 per year. This would be about a dollar fifty per use for me. Cheap. Can't afford it? Buy guitar tracks.
 
Reducing the prices have done what? Same price range as garage band????  That's the target market for the best product of the company?
Been here since CW 9.  Loyal upgrader. Bug reporter. Suggestion provider.
Business perspective: 90+ percent of unsatisfied customers do not complain, they mostly will purchase elsewhere. Very few actually demand changes.
 
Many computer users assume they were the cause of a crash,...
 
Often a problem is not resolved, but a work-around is discovered and used from then on. Yesterday, a client called, adobe creator crashed during a word export. And the command button in word left the building. We are not sure how to restore this. We found she could still create PDFs using save-as.
 
Such happens in Sonar as well, "where's the icon? Create a shortcut key! Problem "solved."
 
Not all CW users use the CW forums. Lots on Yahoo, harmony central,... Lots of complaining in all the "wrong" places.
 
 J

Any company person describing what they are supposed to do as valiant is annoying.

+1

John T

Bristol_Jonesey

One more thing. How many of the updates the X1 has seen would have been implemented had this forum had been about backslapping the bakers?

Very good point Jon, one which I'm afraid we'll never know the answer to.

I think we do know. They've said many, many times that complaints in the forum are a minority contribution to getting things fixed, and frequently go entirely unread by development, and what gets attention is what comes in via the problem reporter.

Yes, this is indeed the case.  And, tho understandable from a human resources level, still unfortunate.  One reason being that we have so many folks here that are competent, proficient and knowledgeable users of Sonar who also represent many differing ways of using and implementing Sonar...in differing genres of music production.  I would suspect also that when many of us have problems the first thing we do is head to the forum...not Cake's tech support.  In fact, I'd imagine many of us try NOT to bother tech support unless we have to.  I still maintain it would be beneficial for Cake to assign an employee to constantly monitor the forum and try to weed out the chaff from the wheat, not only for gleaning problems with Sonar but for ideas for new features.  Still, as John states, currently the only viable way to get Cake's "bug fixing" attention is via a problem report.

I dunno. The signal to noise ratio in these forums is pretty bad. Maybe if there was someone whose job was to mine for information AND run a stiff broom through it, moderation-wise.

If you look at the Cubase forum, the culture over there is very different. Just as many people raising just as many bugs, but the threads tend to turn into group efforts to replicate bugs and come up with something useful to report.

Why this difference in culture? I think simply because Steinberg keep it on a tight leash. Some people think that's bad and light to no moderation is a good thing. That's not a view I share.

So no, in its present form, I don't think you could get a lot useful from this forum, in bug hunting terms.