Well, I did say they'd have to separate the "chaff from the wheat".  And you're right, daunting task, that.  Especially since I, myownself, and probably you too, ol pal...would end up in the "chaff" bin:-)

I think people have been lulled into a false sense of virtual reality.

We're dealing with a SOFT product that interfaces with different hardware and operating systems.  This isn't a Chevy or a Ford or for the elitists in the group, a BMW or Mercedes.

Look at WINDOWS and service packs and security updates and bug fixes.  NO company has the resources to test all combinations and permutations of software and hardware on multiple platforms, with a piece of software that is undoubtedly modular based with several millions of lines of code using a plethora of programmers working primarily independently, coming together to interconnect their work and fashion a product even as new ideas and re-thinks are in the works.  Come on people, you can't expect "hardware QC" from a very powerful and complex software product.  Until a bug is discovered, it can't be addressed.  There are millions of combinations to deal with.  A little adult realism would help to temper the whining here.

Personally, I applaud Cakewalk for its continued commitment to improving this product and addressing user problems.  Putting planned resources into the continued development of an already-released product is ATYPICAL.  Stating that upgrades ARE coming as part of marketing is ALSO an invitation to get all of us involved in the evolution of a better product.  Take the invitation and be a part of it.  Meanwhile, realize that only so much is possible and that things have to be identified before they can be fixed.

I realize that those who are using a DAW to make a living are going to feel differently.  But the fact of the matter is, this IS software.  So I would ask you, do you run out and buy a new Windows Operating System within its first few months of release or do you wait and let others work the bugs out a little first when your livelihood is going to depend on it?  Bugs are a fact of life due to the complexities of running software on MORE THAN ONE PRESCRIPTIVE SYSTEM.  If Cakewalk was selling you a dedicated computer with ONLY this software installed on a prescribed operating system with prescribed hardware, it would be a different story.  But that's not what we have here... so let's be informed, enlightened participants in the honing of this product instead of whining like spoiled children after Santa doesn't deliver exactly what we wished for.

musicheals

I realize that those who are using a DAW to make a living are going to feel differently.

I think we have to be careful of this one. I make a goodly chunk of my living using Sonar, as I know yourolpal does and several others. The "us complainers are the proper pros" myth in this forum needs laying to rest.

My bank account thinks that this Thread is Scary!!
I'm a new DAW user, who came here from having LE & Abelton Lite Live bundled (separately), and of the two LE came out (for me) clearly on top.
As X1 cost me roughly 300 big ones, when people start talking of X2, my knees start shaking.
I've only really skimmed the surface of X1 as yet (I've added 1a & 1b), by remixing some earlier stuff, mostly simple Wav & Midi tracks, and up to now it's worked without problems...here's hoping.
Glad to see that there's so many passionate people hereabouts.

Jonbouy


I think this is totally fair from JM24 and a courageous thing to express.

Had someone from Cakewalk had said, yes this release was a turkey from the outset and we've been working hard to get back on track (which I truly believe they have), satisfied and disatisfied customers alike would be totally happy with that explanation.

To come on here and say the genuine issues and frustration they've been having are unwarranted in the light of a long line of post release fixes that have been supplied must be galling to all but the most ardent fanboi.

I believe this was yet another 'spin' from the marketing man and I don't see why it should be lauded that he deems to join us to feed another line that fails to acknowledge the genuine concern the companies paying customers have been expected to swallow since the initial release.  Yes I think JM24's reply is nearer to the truth to what the largely intelligent user base has been experiencing to a larger extent than should be acceptable to ANY customer facing company.

The sentence quoted there is just face saving talk and unsurprisingly is likely to be construed as insulting to many however one may feel about the undoubted 'nice guy' Brandon.

And for this weird notion about supporting previous incarnations, X1 IS the previous incarnation with a reworked GUI which is why it has many of the issues replicated in minute detail carried over from previous ones.  However substantial the chunk of code that has changed lets not pretend this is a new app distinct from version 8.* it's just another progression of the same product that went a step further than the company could pull off comfortably within the time, finance and resource restraints it had clearly.

That is certainly not the fault of any paying customer.  Something went wrong here whether it was to do with a business model, planning or execution it was clearly the company that messed up here, not the buyers, and yes to come on here and repeatedly say look how well we are doing 'for you' is certainly difficult to me to interpret as a 'favour' from any staff member.

X1 might be getting up to speed now but much of that is down to the fact there is still a user base here prepared to pay for it.  Not because some marketing manager can carefully use language to disguise the truth of the situation, more likely it is despite that.

Come on Cakewalk you have the core of a killer app here that we are all willing to do well, I understand Ableton were able to hold their hands up to their failings and make drastic changes to their development schedules.  Why do you with such a loyal customer base have to be so arrogant and go to such lengths appear infallible to the consternation of those users that already know otherwise?

Hmmm. I'm quite sure you are reading far too much into my very short comments. I merely stated that we are supporting X1 at this point and can't go back and develop and test pre-X1 SONAR. It's a fact. I could provide false hope  and say otherwise or simply not address the question, but that wouldn't be very helpful to anyone.

I also said that X1 has had more resources dedicated to more released fixes and updates than any previous SONAR. That's also true. Anything else gleaned from that is injected on the part of the reader. Regardless of what you think about X1, the QuickFix program and a concerted attempt to provide ever more timely and targeted updates has been something Cakewalk has planned to do for some time. We are now beginning to see the fruit in the X1 product cycle and should continue to see this type of thing in the future. I said we feel good about it (we do) - and I suspect that customers appreciate ever more timely updates as well. Is some of that not true?

My point of posting was to say that it is the desire of Cakewalk to follow this model ever more-so and provide updates to more customers more often. Pretty basic point. I also wanted to be clear that we are not updating pre-X1 code - as this was a question. I thought a definitive answer might be nice.

My statements were merely a glimpse into what Cakewalk's plans are and how we feel about the SONAR update model moving forward. So to take offense to these statements of fact, or be insulted, and see them as spin is something I'm afraid I cannot grasp. What may I ask was I trying to "spin" in this case? I was answering the question as to whether there would be more updates to 8.5. To say it's somehow "courageous" to call my rather simple comments on the subject "spin" is also something quite beyond me and let's just say it's not a sentiment I share

If anything is "insulting" it might very well be to frame the customers that are stating they have big problems with X1 and that it is a "turkey" as the "largely intelligent user-base". What does that say about those that like X1 and get along with it? Are they the unintelligent group? Not that it matters a load of beans but I might also take exception to being referred to as "some marketing manager". I'm a musician and a user of DAWs since the mid-80's. I'm also a SONAR user and one that has worked at Cakewalk for the better part of a decade. Yes I work in Marketing but my role at Cakewalk is pretty wide and I always have the best interests of the SONAR user base at heart - and always have. To say otherwise might feel good but it wouldn't be the reality.

Why would you not want to know about things that have been fixed?

He didn't say it was great that they were doing their jobs. He said that he feels good about the approach they're taking.  Reading comprehension tip for you there: look at what people actually say rather than fill it in yourself.

I don't find it greatly strains my reserves of goodwill to be okay with people feeling good about their work.

jm24

John T


Umm... I suppose it's good that nobody did that, then?

 
Another clue to your thinking process.
Brandon posted a little missive about how great it is that CW personnel are doing their jobs.
 
I responded with a bit of, "Should we expect any different?"
 
As usual you immediately posted a contrary comment.
 
I then iterated that it is annoying, at best, when company representatives beat their chests proclaiming pride for doing what they are supposed to.
 
And then you posted the quote above. 
 
It is now clear to me, you do not know how to read for comprehension. No doubt a reflection of your limited understanding of the equivalant meaning of statements.
 
No wonder many of us find your posts to be primarily contrary, distracting, and disjointed. Reading for comprehension was a major topic of study in second grade. We were taught to read all of the article before forming an opinion. This is because the first couple of sentences are for setting the stage.
 
I am sad for you. As you also appear to have little self control.
 
Although I know I cannot totally avoid triggering your viscerally based negative thoughts, I will attempt to not respond to any of your comments in hopes that you will not feel the need to immediately, without forethought, publically display such knee-jerk reactions.
 
J

Excuse me? Let's talk about knee-jerk reactions for a second.

When did I post "a little missive about how great it is that CW personnel are doing their jobs"? Please point it out.

If you are perhaps (I can only guess) referring to the portion where I state "this is something we feel good about" - I was referring to the update process and QuickFix program - i.e. that it works, had good response and provides quicker updates to the field and so is likely to continue. When did I ever praise any CW personnel for doing a great job? For the love of god all I was saying was that SONAR is getting increased post-launch support in this cycle and that we like this model. I also stated that we will not be going back and releasing updates to pre-X1 code. As I stated before, anything further is the reader simply projecting their own feelings on to my statements.

John T


He didn't say it was great that they were doing their jobs. He said that he feels good about the approach they're taking.  Reading comprehension tip for you there: look at what people actually say rather than fill it in yourself.

Exactly what I was saying.

(It's unfortunate that I have to choose my words so carefully due to either the high degree of cynicism and/or lack of opportunity to clarify or expound upon my statements before judgment is handed down.)

The whole reason these kind of arguments keep coming up is because people are tired of paying for a product that doesn't work as advertised and is then dropped a year later and then you're **** out of luck.

The old "oh it's software that happens" line is old and quite frankly insulting. There is no reason bugs in previous versions cannot be addressed. Especially in 8.5 because X1 is so different there are going to be a lot of people running both because of the learning curve.

Here Brandon.  Have a beer.  I'm buying.  You've earned it.

jm24

Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]

Regrading further updates to pre-X1 SONAR:

SONAR X1 has probably been supported with more updates and reaching further out from initial launch than any previous incarnation.       This is something we feel good about

 
Self congratulations, chest pounding, "we are valiant in our endeavours."
 
If the inital release of the SX services was stable and usable, what has been the point of all the "fixes?"
 
If it wasn't primarily beta-ware why should we praise your efforts to do this work?
 
 
J

I'm sure Brandon can stick up for himself, but since reading comprehension class is in, and I know it's a subject you're keen on, it's worth noting the fact that he never asked to be praised.

jm24

Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]

Regrading further updates to pre-X1 SONAR:

SONAR X1 has probably been supported with more updates and reaching further out from initial launch than any previous incarnation.       This is something we feel good about

 
Self congratulations, chest pounding, "we are valiant in our endeavours."
 
If the inital release of the SX services was stable and usable, what has been the point of all the "fixes?"
 
If it wasn't primarily beta-ware why should we praise your efforts to do this work?
 
 
J

Nice try but it's not going to fly. Chest-pounding? Let's be real.

The first sentence was a simple statement of fact. The second was supporting the first by saying that "we like this method/direction and we know the customers seem to like it so we will likely continue and strive to do better in this regard" (i.e. "we feel good about it"). It's like a pilot might say "we feel good about our chances of reaching land before we run out of fuel."

Sorry, but the fact is that you misinterpreted my comments, are further mis-characterizing them and still refuse to take my clarification at face value.

When did I ask anyone to praise our efforts? I've read my comments over and over and can't find that part...

BEATZM1D10T


Wow...

What a bunch of children.
 
I'm surprised Brandon even bothers. I know I wouldn't.

Man, I would. I'd be swinging the banhammer through this place like I was the Mighty Thor.

Bub


The whole reason these kind of arguments keep coming up is because people are tired of paying for a product that doesn't work as advertised and is then dropped a year later and then you're **** out of luck.

The old "oh it's software that happens" line is old and quite frankly insulting. There is no reason bugs in previous versions cannot be addressed. Especially in 8.5 because X1 is so different there are going to be a lot of people running both because of the learning curve.

There is plenty of reason bugs in older software cannot be fixed and are usually addressed in the next version, go find me one software project where this doesn't happen. At some point you are happy with the software you have developed, the majority of your user-base seems happy and you move onto to making the next version. 

When there is such a huge change from 8.5.3 -> X1 you can't expect a company to carry a legacy code base along with maintaining the current version whilst developing the next version.

If you want software that is constantly bug fixed / service packed maybe they should raise the price to MSDN costs and you can shell out $3 - 10k a year for your DAW? I'd love to see your outcry if that happened!

If people are sick and tired of "paying for a product that doesn't work as advertised "... stop bloody paying for it!