Anderton
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/25 00:05:16
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TW5011
I have to say, I like the way Cakewalk does it, so much so, that when the time to renew my yearly membership came up recently and there wasn't anything really exciting to me on the upcoming page, I renewed anyway, because I thought the past year was great in terms of what they delivered and I expect it to continue.
FWIW, remember that if Cakewalk has something mind-blowing planned for later in the year, they're not going to mention it in the upcoming page just in case some other manufacturer thinks "hey, we should build that into our next rev, too!" They have to do a balancing act of not just that aspect, but of needing to be careful not to announce something that may require more time to complete.
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John
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/25 00:49:30
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The OP has every right to opt in opt out or just wait and see. I prefer paying up front so I don't have to worry about upgrading. I also like the anticipation each month of the new goodies that may come my way. I do know that if one were to list all the new and improved features we received last year it would overwhelm us and make the old yearly update seem trivial.
There is another reason I like this new model. I feel more involved in the ongoing programing of Sonar. Its as if I'm in there with the team deciding what feature will come next. I know that I have no control on it but because we have this forum and a very active CW staff coming here watching and listening I think we are all part of the process. The is a feeling of inclusion that is not present with any other DAW.
I think we underestimate the power the membership has. I also think as individuals we can choose how we approach the membership. We can embrace it or we can still refer to it as a subscription even though it isn't one.
Its all in the way one choose to look at things.
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John
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/25 01:13:35
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As to VCA faders for DAWs that don't have the grouping and bussing abilities of Sonar they are a nice feature. In Sonar I really don't see a good reason for them except for CW to say it has them too. I have two DAWs that do have them and I don't use them that much or wish Sonar had them too. There are so many other things those other DAWs are missing that to me are far more useful to me. Sonar has them thats why it remands my first DAW.
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lfm
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/25 04:13:01
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Anderton
lfm
If it's automatic Tempo Detection it's cool.
It's not just tempo detection, it's tempo following. If you have a part whose tempo varies, the tempo map will vary. For example, to test it out I played a rhythm guitar part where the tempo sounded like the guitar player was on tranquilizers, then the coffee kicked in, and finally the tempo fell off a cliff to really slow. I was shocked that SONAR (and therefore Addictive Drums) followed it perfectly, although it's important to set Melodyne to percussion mode on really wild tempo changes. If this isn't a major feature, I'm not sure what is 
No doubt, really cool and major for sure. Thanks for pointing that out. Anderton
As to VCA grouping, I believe the main reason for its introduction in other programs is for Pro Tools users. Pro Tools used to have several grouping limitations (not being able to group record and input monitor, not being able to group faders with separate outputs, etc.) and PT 7.2 addressed those by adding VCA grouping. However, SONAR doesn't have those limitations, and Quick Grouping took SONAR's grouping one step further. Also, SONAR has had the ability to group ratiometrically as well as linearly, AND do custom grouping curves, for as long as I can remember.
There have been discussions of VCA grouping in these forums and it seems relevant only in specific situations with post-fader effects and busing. However, maybe I just don't "get" it (which is entirely possible) but I don't see anything that can't be done in SONAR with grouping, buses, and/or aux tracks/patch points. As most of the comments about the desirability of VCA grouping involve separate effect levels on drums, I think it might be possible to create a Track Template with all the bus and aux track assignments needed to do whatever VCA grouping can do. That would simplify matters even further.
Maybe we could continue usefulness of VCA on feature request forum - there is one such request by someone. I tried to explain some things regarding sends adjustments to accomodate how volume automation varies. It's an intricate calculation of relative percentage adjustments of sends to make the portions of wet and dry signals to be maintained to make the total sum sounding the same. To simplify a bit Result1=dry1+wet1 and you want Result2 after automation to be -2dB level from Result1 - what should dry2 and wet2 be? If you set a fader level and adjust send to be right how you want it - and this is never touched throughout the mix - no VCA is needed. It's the relative movement that start to change how much wet you need. It's not easy and obvious to see - but normal sends don't fix that. Each fader movement needs a different percentage change of send to sound the same but different level. If you route both dry and wet return to same bus and automate that bus fader - problem solved. But as some level it really starts to be not so organized - thinking larger orchestral pieces. But since the correct VCA implementations(not Samplitude) also allow nested grouping it is very powerful.ProTools 12.2 reinstated VCAs again from ProTools HD not to loose out to competition. Reaper 5.0 introduced it, StudioOne 3.2 introduced it and Cubase Pro 8.0 introduced it. This all happend in last 1-2 years - so I guess you could say it is a trend in music industry. As someone said, I think VCA originate from analog consoles and automation. And many prefer to call in DCA in the daw world instead. Someone used to VCA and that way of thinking is probably more attracted to Sonar as an alternative if it exist. I also recall someone used to VCAs that refer to soloing options that exist.
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John
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/25 04:28:00
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For as long as DAWs have been around VCAs have not been a feature of them. It is only very recently that some few DAWs have included them. How did we ever get along without them?
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lfm
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/25 04:40:04
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John
For as long as DAWs have been around VCAs have not been a feature of them. It is only very recently that some few DAWs have included them. How did we ever get along without them?
I forgot the link to feature request on it: http://forum.cakewalk.com/NO-VCAS-YET-m3362542.aspx#3386640 The SOS article from Jeff's link is from 2008 - so it existed for some time in PT. He also mentioned some things he never thought of before using S1. Just that nobody bothered taking the competition with PT maybe. More powerful computers with massive amount of memory also helps how large mixes you can manage. Beatles did some stuff on 4-trackers - how did they do that?  My view is that it might pay off in pro mixers taking on Sonar - and spinoff from being in the professional field. ProTools use that a lot in marketing. Or it won't justify the amount of work - don't know.
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tenfoot
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/25 05:28:53
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lfm
Anderton
lfm
If it's automatic Tempo Detection it's cool.
It's not just tempo detection, it's tempo following. If you have a part whose tempo varies, the tempo map will vary. For example, to test it out I played a rhythm guitar part where the tempo sounded like the guitar player was on tranquilizers, then the coffee kicked in, and finally the tempo fell off a cliff to really slow. I was shocked that SONAR (and therefore Addictive Drums) followed it perfectly, although it's important to set Melodyne to percussion mode on really wild tempo changes. If this isn't a major feature, I'm not sure what is
No doubt, really cool and major for sure.
Thanks for pointing that out.
Anderton
As to VCA grouping, I believe the main reason for its introduction in other programs is for Pro Tools users. Pro Tools used to have several grouping limitations (not being able to group record and input monitor, not being able to group faders with separate outputs, etc.) and PT 7.2 addressed those by adding VCA grouping. However, SONAR doesn't have those limitations, and Quick Grouping took SONAR's grouping one step further. Also, SONAR has had the ability to group ratiometrically as well as linearly, AND do custom grouping curves, for as long as I can remember.
There have been discussions of VCA grouping in these forums and it seems relevant only in specific situations with post-fader effects and busing. However, maybe I just don't "get" it (which is entirely possible) but I don't see anything that can't be done in SONAR with grouping, buses, and/or aux tracks/patch points. As most of the comments about the desirability of VCA grouping involve separate effect levels on drums, I think it might be possible to create a Track Template with all the bus and aux track assignments needed to do whatever VCA grouping can do. That would simplify matters even further.
Maybe we could continue usefulness of VCA on feature request forum - there is one such request by someone.
I tried to explain some things regarding sends adjustments to accomodate how volume automation varies.
It's an intricate calculation of relative percentage adjustments of sends to make the portions of wet and dry signals to be maintained to make the total sum sounding the same.
To simplify a bit
Result1=dry1+wet1 and you want Result2 after automation to be -2dB level from Result1 - what should dry2 and wet2 be?
If you set a fader level and adjust send to be right how you want it - and this is never touched throughout the mix - no VCA is needed.
It's the relative movement that start to change how much wet you need. It's not easy and obvious to see - but normal sends don't fix that. Each fader movement needs a different percentage change of send to sound the same but different level.
But given, as Craig mentioned earlier, that you can group faders ratiometrically as well as linearly and you are using post fade fx sends, I still fail to see what is achieved here by using VCA grouping that can't be achieved in Sonar already without them. On an analogue mixer a VCA is required to maintain offsets between faders, thus maintaining post fade fx ratios. I am yet to be convinced so called VCA's in DAW's are functionally anything more than the relative ratio groupings that have been in Sonar for years. Again, happy to be corrected as to what I have missed, but I just don't see anything here.
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John
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/25 06:27:05
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Me too Bruce. I don't have anything against them and if CW were to have them along side what the have already I would not bash it. Yet I don't see a burning need for them.
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lfm
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/25 07:27:25
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tenfoot
But given, as Craig mentioned earlier, that you can group faders ratiometrically as well as linearly and you are using post fade fx sends, I still fail to see what is achieved here by using VCA grouping that can't be achieved in Sonar already without them.
On an analogue mixer a VCA is required to maintain offsets between faders, thus maintaining post fade fx ratios. I am yet to be convinced so called VCA's in DAW's are functionally anything more than the relative ratio groupings that have been in Sonar for years. Again, happy to be corrected as to what I have missed, but I just don't see anything here.
Every little step in a slope of volume fader needs a different ratio - that is how I found it works, looking into the math.Even though it's cool you can come closer than linear, it's not VCA and it's not nested either in Sonar as I recall. If you can do this in Sonar - why not make a CakeTV episode about it - and all the fuzz go away. If going strict from one automation value to another once - and nothing more - you can calculate manually which ratiometrical to use in Sonar too. I planned to experiment with that - but saw the limitation bothering with that. If everybody feed the Features and Ideas thread we all can learn new things. I have to get cracking on Cubase on this to see what I learn from doing music to video - so hoping Quicktime thingy is fixed soon by Steinberg. For regular pop songs I have not needed VCA's - yet anyway. Try to keep it simple. Longer pieces to video is very different matter what you need depending on the change in scenarios. If we please could continue in Features and Ideas over VCA. Keep bumping this thread about something else is not a good idea.
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Anderton
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/25 09:36:01
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lfm
If we please could continue in Features and Ideas over VCA.
Keep bumping this thread about something else is not a good idea.
I suggest starting a new thread in this forum - "How to Do VCA-Style Grouping in SONAR." People would give very specific examples of where VCA grouping would be applicable, and the forum would suggest solutions that involve tools that already exist within SONAR. I'm assuming (based on the fervor or marketing departments for DAWs that have this ), that there may be some VCA-related applications that SONAR can't do...but there are probably some, if not many, that can be done with the existing tools. VCA grouping kind of sounds to me like surround...there was a big buzz many years ago about how a "pro" DAW had to have surround, so all the DAWs sprouted surround implementations (and actually, SONAR's remains one of the better ones). But I wonder how many people actually use it. I'd bet less than 1% of all DAW users. I tend to think it may be one of those "Well I might need it someday, better have it" kind of features. Anyway, if y'all agree that a thread on ""How to Do VCA-Style Grouping in SONAR" would be useful, someone should start it.
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chuckebaby
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/25 20:23:04
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to me it sounds like you want to pay for when its good for you.
and I can understand that, but is that really fair to both you and cakewalk, or only fair to just you ?
your saying you want all the updates you got when sonar was not subscription ?
the software used to cost 100.00 yearly for all the new upgrades.
so you want all those new upgrades but only want to pay when its something you like ?
I don't know, maybe im wrong but this is how it sounds.
I like the way it is now. I like getting the new updates monthly.
Every few months we get the holy shizzle this is great update. so in my opinion, its basically the same as it was before only now we are seeing the smaller and larger updates as soon as the bakers done cooking them.
which again only my opinion, but that is genuinely amazing, not to mention useful and productive.
good luck
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Anderton
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/25 21:12:34
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lfm
Every little step in a slope of volume fader needs a different ratio - that is how I found it works, looking into the math. With VCAs, the only parameter the control voltage changes is the gain or more commonly, the attenuation of the amplifier circuit. This is true for both transconductance amplifiers like the CA3080 or dual-quadrant multipliers. If you know of an exception to this, let me know. I never encountered anything different in all my years of doing analog circuit design. This control voltage usually obeys a linear relationship between input and output, but a logging element (sometimes included on chip) can change the input/output relationship to log or antilog. It really is that simple and those are the only rules I know of that apply to the relationship among the input, output, and control voltage inputs of VCA devices. If you can do this in Sonar - why not make a CakeTV episode about it - and all the fuzz go away. Because no one has yet defined what "do this" is. So far it has mostly been defined as "do VCA automation." What we need to know is what VCA automation accomplishes that is unique. Often there's more than one way to accomplish a specific goal. For example someone might insist that the only way to make a guitar's level louder is by using heavier-gauge strings and plucking them harder. Someone else might point out you can simply turn up the gain of a subsequent stage The statement in bold makes no sense in and of itself. A ratio involves two entities. What are the two entities? How do their slopes change? Are the two slopes different? Is the slope log, antilog, linear, or controlled via something else like the virtual equivalent of a logging element? But most importantly, what exactly needs to be accomplished? I would like to either solve the problem or decide it can't be solved, but I truly don't know what the problem is. Hopefully someone can explain it in a practical, applications-oriented context I can understand.
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Susan G
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/25 21:26:00
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lfm
Hi
Just wanted to share a bit that maybe is of use for Cakewalk - when am I ready to pay again?
Short version - when there is something I really want or need - then I am ready to pay up.
For me it's not enough with knowing about all these updates and things that don't matter to me.
Not sure if this is human nature over all - but it's how I work.
For various reasons I jumped to Cubase in june last year - since buying Cubase Pro was about the same money as good notation.
And I have headroom with many things that I might need, like VCA faders etc. And I can place busses withing track folders etc.
Now as my Sonar membership expired in feb, I have looked to see what major stuff was saved up for one year anniversary and probably the largest crowd of users are to open their wallets again.
To my disappointment - nothing was saved up - not a single surprise feature?
The major things introduced on sonar 2015 was upsampling synths, and patchpoints - and patchpoints was one thing that might have made me go up to Sonar Pro and just do notation in Cubase.
So if other people work like me - Cakewalk, be smart on how you release major stuff?
Sales psychology is like that - you are ready to pay if there is something you really want.
So this general thing with rolling updates does not work to pay up again - not for me.
So if Forum Hosts can avoid moving this to a forum where nobody participate - it could be good feedback to Bakers how you feel about the same thing.
Are membership for rolling updates working for you to pay up again?
These endless campaígns from Cakewalk tells me it's not quite working for them as anticipated.
Sonar is a fine daw, and I have the longest history with Sonar from Sonar 4 Studio, before that Cakewalk Pro 3.0 late 80's.
So chime in how you feel about it....
Best regards
Lars
Hi Lars- I think I'm pretty much where you are. I started with Cakewalk for DOS many years ago and left for a few years after 8.1 before coming back and signing up for a year. The updates were impressive, but not enough to make me want to commit for another year. I'll keep an eye on new offerings and maybe opt in again at some point. There's too much going on in my two other DAWs right now (with free updates) for me to make an additional financial commitment when I don't really know what I'd be getting for my money. -Susan
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Sycraft
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/26 07:16:05
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Anderton
Because no one has yet defined what "do this" is. So far it has mostly been defined as "do VCA automation." I think that may be all there is to it. People have heard the buzzword and they want it. They aren't particularly sure why they want it, they just want it because it is something newish to DAWs, is featured in Pro Tools (which is popular for reasons beyond my understanding) and hearkens back to the glory days of analogue consoles which is the hot thing lately. I don't think there is many, if any, cases of someone saying "I need to be able to do X in my DAW and I can't, however I can do it in a DAW that has VCA faders." I kinda feel like Cakewalk should just implement it if it isn't too much effort just because it'll make people happy to have the feature. Not that it is useful, but they'll be happy because they have the cool new feature that everything else has.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/26 07:27:45
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What, and divert precious development resources away from enhancements/toys which a lot more people would gain benefit from?
No thanks.
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dcumpian
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/26 08:04:03
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I thought if you let your membership lapse, it would cost more to come back than to simply renew. Is that no longer true? Not that I'm thinking about it, mind you, the last few updates have really fixed some things that were bugging me, but I just don't think it's as simple as dropping out, then dropping in with a renewal whenever you decide to.
Regards,
Dan
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John T
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/26 08:13:27
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As I understand it, it doesn't cost more exactly, but if your membership has lapsed, you have to commit to another full year if you want to keep all the updates.
On the other hand, if you keep your membership continually active, once the initial year is over, you can keep all updates from then on a month by month basis.
So, for example - you do a full year, and stay active for another 3 months. If you then stop your membership, you keep all those 15 months worth of updates. Then you opt back in say six months later; you get all updates up to that point that you missed, but you only get to permanently keep them if your new membership runs for a full 12 months from that point.
This would seem to be to prevent people trying to game the system, eg opting in and out every two months in order to pay half the rate or whatever.
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lfm
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/26 08:37:55
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Sycraft
Anderton
Because no one has yet defined what "do this" is. So far it has mostly been defined as "do VCA automation."
I think that may be all there is to it. People have heard the buzzword and they want it. They aren't particularly sure why they want it, they just want it because it is something newish to DAWs, is featured in Pro Tools (which is popular for reasons beyond my understanding) and hearkens back to the glory days of analogue consoles which is the hot thing lately. I don't think there is many, if any, cases of someone saying "I need to be able to do X in my DAW and I can't, however I can do it in a DAW that has VCA faders."
I kinda feel like Cakewalk should just implement it if it isn't too much effort just because it'll make people happy to have the feature. Not that it is useful, but they'll be happy because they have the cool new feature that everything else has.
Some truth in what you say, of course. I see a daw as having tools that assist you to do many things in a simpler fashion. Daw with no VCA's: Move or automate a fader to go from 0dB to -8dB - you also have to adjust a possible send to get the same sound, unless a different ratio dry/wet is the effect you are going for. Control group still have to adjust all sends on affected tracks manually to sound the same but different level only. If there is one such jump in level, you can calculate a ratio for send level adjustment for that. But if two or more such changes in a mix, or a slope curve of some sort you are screwed. So which ratio is to be used for volume instant change from 0DB to -8dB? Needs to be done for each such change, on every track individually. Careful planning with routing through busses for both dry and returns from wet busses - can let you automate buss fader. It's common you can get away with maybe 8-10 stems in a project, parts that may need individual adjustments through out a mix. The amount of planning of routing, and duplicating the same effect to return wet signal to the same buss is growing rather quickly. Daw with VCA: Move or automate a fader to go from 0dB to -8dB - do that on a VCA fader and it takes care of sends adjusted to sound the same. One track, or 100 tracks affected, belonging to that VCA group. Nested VCA also adjust other VCA's affected tracks. And your project can stay pretty flat when it comes to routing and busses. VCA is basically a global offset automation for any range of tracks and busses. It need not handle any audio at all - just automation. This is how I see it. Not needed for every song or piece of music - but nice if it is there if you need it - I call it headroom in my tool.
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John T
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/26 08:40:43
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I'm honestly not seeing how that can't be done with sends as post-fader, which is what they are with default. Apologies if this has already been explained, but if it has, it's not clear to me.
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John T
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/26 08:44:03
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As it goes, I can think of a use case for VCAs which Sonar currently doesn't handle well.
Say you've got a bunch of tracks that you want to automate up and down as a group. A drum kit might be one example, or a group of backing vocals.
Now, if you have sends on the tracks, but route the tracks themselves to a bus, in order to run into the bus, you do run into the problem of the sends not being adjusted along with the bus.
A VCA type control would mean you could automate things at the source track level with only one lane of automation. Currently, you'd have to create the automation for all the individual tracks. This is because grouped tracks don't obey automation from a single track within the group.
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lfm
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/26 09:22:21
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John T
I'm honestly not seeing how that can't be done with sends as post-fader, which is what they are with default. Apologies if this has already been explained, but if it has, it's not clear to me.
Until I looked into VCA's I did think the same way you do. My example of simple one fader doing a jump from 0dB to -8dB, and let's say a send at -12dB on that postfader - already create a change in dry/wet without we thinking so much about it. Sending -12dB send on 0dB fader, is not the same ratio dry/wet as doing -12dB on -8dB fader. What we do, until entering automation, just setting the start levels on faders - we adjust send to sound right after we made the move. Depending on what we have in send chain effects this becomes more obvious or not noticed at all. But once automation in place, and a slope or jumps on a couple of places - we are in trouble. When I started mixing more seriously making songs fully finished about 15 years ago, I kept it very simple and minor adjustments through out. But as getting more experienced you want things to be altered all the time to maintain the interest of the listener - things come a go, and a lot of things is happening all the time. You can very well be hit by the lazy bug and let things be as they are throughout. But I found that songs and music that I listened to - there are so many layers of intersting things going on. And I try to learn from that - make music that last more than one listen. So if you have tools that assist you in making complex things simpler - you are more likely to use it. That is how I work anyway. The same as the money bug - do I really need this as I need to open my wallet again?  Why this thread was created in the first place.
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John
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/26 09:27:52
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John T
As it goes, I can think of a use case for VCAs which Sonar currently doesn't handle well.
Say you've got a bunch of tracks that you want to automate up and down as a group. A drum kit might be one example, or a group of backing vocals.
Now, if you have sends on the tracks, but route the tracks themselves to a bus, in order to run into the bus, you do run into the problem of the sends not being adjusted along with the bus.
A VCA type control would mean you could automate things at the source track level with only one lane of automation. Currently, you'd have to create the automation for all the individual tracks. This is because grouped tracks don't obey automation from a single track within the group.
You could use the buss send instead of the track sends. That way it would still be proportional. I have done this many times. Personally I prefer leaving the tracks set for balance between them and route them to a buss for control.
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John T
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/26 09:44:12
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That does work, but only in a limited way. You don't have control over different send levels in a group, which you may well want.
Take the drums example. I almost always have little or no reverb on the kick, more on the snare, more still on the overheads.
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John T
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/26 09:46:32
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☄ Helpfulby tenfoot 2016/04/26 10:33:05
lfm
John T
I'm honestly not seeing how that can't be done with sends as post-fader, which is what they are with default. Apologies if this has already been explained, but if it has, it's not clear to me.
Until I looked into VCA's I did think the same way you do.
Didn't need to "look into" it. Use this kind of control all the time doing live sound. lfm
My example of simple one fader doing a jump from 0dB to -8dB, and let's say a send at -12dB on that postfader - already create a change in dry/wet without we thinking so much about it.
I think I must be misunderstanding you, because on the face of it, this is simply wrong. You bring down the dry signal of the original track. The send on the track is post-fader. Therefore, whatever reduction you applied to the track is also applied to the send, and the wet/dry ratio is preserved. Or do you mean something else?
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lfm
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/26 09:49:53
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John
You could use the buss send instead of the track sends. That way it would still be proportional. I have done this many times. Personally I prefer leaving the tracks set for balance between them and route them to a buss for control.
Sometimes that works depending what is feeding the bus. A vocals bus with both lead and background vocals with harmonies maybe have different requirements on reverb sends through out the mix. Do we want the system to run us - or us to run the system? It also means the planning to have no sends of tracks ending in a bus, unless the return from those sends also are returned to the same bus. The more I come into VCA way of thinking the more I feel I will use it. Just more flexibility with less work. Many things with VCA's can be done in other ways - but with more work involved. You can start splitting tracks after duplicating and set fixed levels instead of automating - but more cumbersome. You can change send automation everywhere you changed volume automation - but more cumbersome.
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tenfoot
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/26 10:09:31
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lfm
My example of simple one fader doing a jump from 0dB to -8dB, and let's say a send at -12dB on that postfader - already create a change in dry/wet without we thinking so much about it.
Sending -12dB send on 0dB fader, is not the same ratio dry/wet as doing -12dB on -8dB fader.
Your example is describing a prefade send, not post fade. The level of the signal sent to the -12db post fade send is adjusted relative to the value of the main channel fader. That's why it's called post fade! You are describing it as an absolute fixed value of -12db. The wet/dry ratio must stay the same, otherwise there would be no point in post fader sends. There are some advantages with the way PT has implemented what it calls vca faders (which is still just grouping - in PT you create a group before assigning it to a vca fader) with regards to automation, and relative levels when both the channels and the controlling vca are automated, but they are nothing to do with what you are describing.
post edited by tenfoot - 2016/04/26 10:41:34
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/26 10:13:41
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John T
lfm
John T
I'm honestly not seeing how that can't be done with sends as post-fader, which is what they are with default. Apologies if this has already been explained, but if it has, it's not clear to me.
Until I looked into VCA's I did think the same way you do.
Didn't need to "look into" it. Use this kind of control all the time doing live sound.
lfm
My example of simple one fader doing a jump from 0dB to -8dB, and let's say a send at -12dB on that postfader - already create a change in dry/wet without we thinking so much about it.
I think I must be misunderstanding you, because on the face of it, this is simply wrong.
You bring down the dry signal of the original track. The send on the track is post-fader. Therefore, whatever reduction you applied to the track is also applied to the send, and the wet/dry ratio is preserved. Or do you mean something else?
I follow this logic much clearer that I do Lars' The ratio must remain constant otherwise when the fader reaches -INF you'd still be able to hear the send yes?
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John T
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/26 10:14:28
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lfm
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/26 10:29:11
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John T
lfm
My example of simple one fader doing a jump from 0dB to -8dB, and let's say a send at -12dB on that postfader - already create a change in dry/wet without we thinking so much about it.
I think I must be misunderstanding you, because on the face of it, this is simply wrong.
You bring down the dry signal of the original track. The send on the track is post-fader. Therefore, whatever reduction you applied to the track is also applied to the send, and the wet/dry ratio is preserved. Or do you mean something else?
I am saying that is the misconception I lived by until I started studying what VCA's are about. Why is there an issue automating volume and not sends? [****e numbers removed not take up anybodys time reading it]
post edited by lfm - 2016/04/26 16:21:32
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Anderton
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/26 10:31:34
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John T
A VCA type control would mean you could automate things at the source track level with only one lane of automation. Currently, you'd have to create the automation for all the individual tracks. This is because grouped tracks don't obey automation from a single track within the group.
I'm still not getting something (and you're a smart guy, so I hope you can explain it to me ). If the dry tracks are going to a bus (or aux track), and the sends are going to a bus (or aux track), couldn't you just set the dry and effects buses for the desired relative level, then group them ratiometrically so they track each other as you write automation to bring them up and down? The only difference I see is that this requires two automation curves, one for each bus, but since you can write them simultaneously I don't see how that's a problem or even an inconvenience.
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