dubdisciple
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Re: Please don't move to a subscription model
2014/10/28 15:32:27
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i gotta say it. Even though i have commented on this subject, there are far too many topics about this same topic. i have to catch myself at times assuming that if it were implemented (and the ydid not implement it despite asking about it on surveys prior to X3) it would be like the Adobe model or some of the high end corporate models for software. i think I'm going to wait. If everyone responded like they have on this board, I'm confident cakewalk knows that model won't fly. i suppose they have to at least do some research. shame on myself and others for having a conniption over them just asking a question. We would be even more annoyed if they jus timplemented a system without any feedback whatsoever.
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P-Theory
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Re: Please don't move to a subscription model
2014/10/28 15:35:28
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I didn't check the forum before posting so I guess it is a common feeling that subscriptions are horrid?
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brconflict
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/10/28 15:37:03
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Anderton
Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk]
I've been at Cakewalk for 12+ years and one thing has always remained true... we are very customer focused. So please keep that in mind as you speculate on how SONAR will evolve.
I hope I can take that to mean iLok is not being considered...
My suggestion would be like, if you want to pay a small monthly fee for use of Sonar, merely transferring your license to online verification, where you don't see/feel any difference is ideal. For example, let's pretend your dongle is in a cloud somewhere. You shouldn't notice a difference (which, if the PACE/iLok guys had any sense of forward-looking, they'd develop a driver to validate your software online vs a stupid USB fob). I suggest, Sonar runs as it does today, but it merely checks online occasionally for its license (if you didn't buy the full-copy). If your Internet connection is down for a couple of days, so what? Sonar could be patient in that it thinks, "Ok, your Internet connection is down today, but I've validated you in the last 3 days, so you're good for another 2 days (5-day rolling license checks). If I can validate your subscription was canceled, I'll let you know, and give you options to renew/un-pause, or at least let you export and mess around with the software, the audio engine will just not activate."
Brian Sonar Platinum, Steinberg Wavelab Pro 9, MOTU 24CoreIO w/ low-slew OP-AMP mods and BLA external clock, True P8, Audient ASP008, API 512c, Chandler Germ500, Summit 2ba-221, GAP Pre-73, Peluso 22251, Peluso 2247LE, Mackie HR824, Polk Audio SRS-SDA 2.3tl w/upgraded Soniccraft crossovers and Goertz cables, powered by Pass-X350. All wiring Star-Quad XLR or Monster Cable. Power by Monster Power Signature AVS2000 voltage stabilizer and Signature Pro Power 5100 PowerCenter on a 20A isolation shielded circuit.
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dubdisciple
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Re: Please don't move to a subscription model
2014/10/28 15:39:09
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P-Theory
I didn't check the forum before posting so I guess it is a common feeling that subscriptions are horrid?
Understatement! lol :) I think the ratio of violent opposition to even a maybe is 100-1
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P-Theory
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Re: Please don't move to a subscription model
2014/10/28 15:49:12
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Oh good, then please listen to your user base Cakewalk.....Subscription model will be the death of you!!!!!
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Boydie
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/10/28 15:50:27
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I actually think a subscription model would be attractive to NEW users of SONAR - ie those that might pay $99 a year (or $9.99 a month) for access to SONAR - which is cheaper than the $499 rrp entry price for Producer I think the problem with existing users is that we feel we have ALREADY paid for our versions so would expect a cheaper upgrade path, bearing in mind most of us will probably upgrade anyway for more $$$ about a year after our last upgrade  A subscription model where it is $99 for the first year and then a reduced amount for existing users for each following year ($79?) would seem a fairer model and certainly something I would be happy with
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dubdisciple
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Re: Please don't move to a subscription model
2014/10/28 15:50:28
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BENT
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Re: Please don't move to a subscription model
2014/10/28 16:21:45
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P-Theory
It would mean I would have to subscribe for the shortest period of time so that I could migrate all of my projects to a new DAW.
Not really, If you have X3 now then you have it forever or until such time as Windows no longer supports it. So you would have time to migrate to another DAW. I have empirical evidence this is true... (Bender told me!)
I have empirical evidence this is true... (Bender told me!)  Cakewalk by BandLab, Splat and other DAW's PC = Win 10 64 Bit, i7 3770, 16Gb RAM, 256GB Samsung 2.5’ 840 PRO SATA6GB/s SSD 1, and 2 x 2Tb Internal, Monitors = 2 24” Samsung SA450 and 1 20” Dele Edirol = Octa-Capture-UA1010, Quad-Capture-UA55, PCR-500, Berringer 2 x FBC 1010 Alesis Control Pad KRK monitors
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dubdisciple
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Re: Please don't move to a subscription model
2014/10/28 16:27:32
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i trust Bender. X3 does everything I could hope for so whatever next versions bring will just be cherries o n top
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Ibanezer
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/10/28 16:42:59
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I don't understand who benefits from this change, almost sounds like new users only. I like to look at my box and discs up on the shelf personally.
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...wicked
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Re: Please don't move to a subscription model
2014/10/28 16:46:59
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Well, I hate Adobe's model, which is totally gross. But a model where you keep whatever you've upgraded to if you quit, and that averages out to $100/yr would be what I end up paying anyway for upgrades. That's what, $8/mo? Sheesh I'd pay that. The upside for Cake, I guess, would be they could roll out features as they finish them and not having to wait a year to shove out a full version.
=========== The Fog People =========== Intel i7-4790 16GB RAM ASUS Z97 Roland OctaCapture Win10/64 SONAR Platinum 64-bit billions VSTs, some of which work
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cityrat
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Re: Please don't move to a subscription model
2014/10/28 16:55:04
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The issue I have is not the cost per month vs buying straight out etc. It's that I will *never* buy into something that basically refuses to work if I stop my monthly (or whatever) payments. Not. Gonna. Happen.
Sonar Platinum | Windows 7 64 bit SP1 | Intel i5 3570 3.4GHz | 8GB RAM | Gigabyte GA-B75-D3H | OCZ SSD | RME 9632
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BENT
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Re: Please don't move to a subscription model
2014/10/28 17:13:49
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cityrat
The issue I have is not the cost per month vs buying straight out etc. It's that I will *never* buy into something that basically refuses to work if I stop my monthly (or whatever) payments. Not. Gonna. Happen.
Well said! +1000
I have empirical evidence this is true... (Bender told me!) Cakewalk by BandLab, Splat and other DAW's PC = Win 10 64 Bit, i7 3770, 16Gb RAM, 256GB Samsung 2.5’ 840 PRO SATA6GB/s SSD 1, and 2 x 2Tb Internal, Monitors = 2 24” Samsung SA450 and 1 20” Dele Edirol = Octa-Capture-UA1010, Quad-Capture-UA55, PCR-500, Berringer 2 x FBC 1010 Alesis Control Pad KRK monitors
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Anderton
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Re: Please don't move to a subscription model
2014/10/28 17:17:31
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cityrat
The issue I have is not the cost per month vs buying straight out etc. It's that I will *never* buy into something that basically refuses to work if I stop my monthly (or whatever) payments. Not. Gonna. Happen.
So, don't buy Audition. Last time I looked, I haven't had to deposit any more dimes in the meter to run Sonar.
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Anderton
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/10/28 17:22:03
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Ibanezer
I don't understand who benefits from this change, almost sounds like new users only. Well, the one benefit I can say for Adobe's model is you don't have to wait for updates or new features. When I was on Creative Cloud for a brief period of time, at least I knew everyone in the company was running the exact same version of the software. I like to look at my box and discs up on the shelf personally.
That's something you'll have to take up with stores. It seems like there's less of a willingness to spend shelf space on boxes containing discs.
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Re: Please don't move to a subscription model
2014/10/28 17:25:42
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subscription does not mean need to be always connected. That is more of a pay-per-use type of service. And with such a service an always connection is reflective of what is paid for: a single use, a week, a month, a year.
We already have a subscription model: A version subscription. For most of sonar's life it has been a around a 12 month subscription.
I favor a once a year payment for 12 months of support for updates/upgrades, regardless of when during the year the subscription is purchased. Like a magazine subscription.
This would reduce the need to create new versions every fall.
It would even income for CW.
It would reduce the insane speculation.
It would reduce the need for special prices,...
Everybody benefits.
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Andrew Rossa
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Re: Please don't move to a subscription model
2014/10/28 17:40:31
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☄ Helpfulby dubdisciple 2014/10/28 17:41:18
There were like 30 other questions on the survey...why you jumping to conclusions about one question? I already answered this in the other 10 threads about this topic but I'll say it again: we like to know more about our customers and how they use and purchase our software. We could certainly pretend like subscription doesn't exist and bury our heads in the sand OR we could truly try to understand how TODAY'S market place works. I get it that subscription is a dirty word for some but it's a reality and we like to know how people are using software. Call us crazy but we think data like this is useful. As for SONAR adopting the Adobe model, highly doubtful. What I can say though, personally, is that they are certain aspects of Creative Cloud that I enjoy. I am sure you could learn a lot from studying their model (both pros and cons). We use Creative Cloud here and enjoy it. But that doesn't mean we are going to go the route of Adobe. So deep breath and relax. It was just a survey. And thanks to all who took it. We appreciate the feedback and will use it to make better products and help improve the SONAR experience for all customers.
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Andrew Rossa
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/10/28 17:46:53
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dke
Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk]
Oh boy. There were like 35 other questions on the survey. Who wants to talk about rollbacks? :)
Seriously though, I don't think it's such a bad thing to try and understand how users purchase software these days. The more information we have, the better we can service our customers. So all these questions had a purpose...to try and understand our customers better. I've been at Cakewalk for 12+ years and one thing has always remained true... we are very customer focused. So please keep that in mind as you speculate on how SONAR will evolve.
My position is even though I answered the previous questions with no uncertainty that I would not support a subscription model, to answer $9.99/mo or 99.99/yr would imply, push comes to shove I would accept a subscription model. An answer of "None of the Above" or skip, would have been a valid answer in keeping with my feelings on the matter and to me should have been an obvious choice.
There is nothing wrong with trying to understand how users purchase software these days, and I had no problem with the questions other than when a question omits an important choice in the context of the questions, to me it is leading the user to answer in a desired way rather than actual feelings on the matter.
I'm not speculating on how Sonar evolves, I'm just stating my feelings on the matter.
Dan
So if I ask you: There's a product you are ready buy and it costs $99, would you rather pay for it up front or a little more over time, you would just say 'skip question'. Because I assume if it's a product you are interested in then you'd just buy it for $99. I don't believe subscription was part of the equation unless it's a subscription product. In that case, it's still a valid question if you want to buy it. Maybe the question could have been restated to clarify that but the assumption is this is a product you want to buy.
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dubdisciple
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Re: Please don't move to a subscription model
2014/10/28 17:49:42
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YouDontHasToCallMeJohnson
subscription does not mean need to be always connected. That is more of a pay-per-use type of service. And with such a service an always connection is reflective of what is paid for: a single use, a week, a month, a year.
We already have a subscription model: A version subscription. For most of sonar's life it has been a around a 12 month subscription.
I favor a once a year payment for 12 months of support for updates/upgrades, regardless of when during the year the subscription is purchased. Like a magazine subscription.
This would reduce the need to create new versions every fall.
It would even income for CW.
It would reduce the insane speculation.
It would reduce the need for special prices,...
Everybody benefits.
Although i have stopped panicking over this, i disagree with much of this. A version is not a subscription. SImply buying something is not the same as subscribing. ig i buy one magazine, that does not make me a subscriber. in fact, if i buy 12 issues, i am not listed as a subscriber. Subscription is commitment. Your claim that it would even income for cakewalk assumes that enough people would buy into it to offset the number of people who such a model would mean an automatic exodus from Cakewalk. The idea that everybody benefits is also false. Some may benefit. I don't like Adobe's model but i do benefit. in my case i use enough multiple products to increase the value. For others it is not a win situation at all. And i guarantee if the adobe model was in place at the very least anyone who stops paying definitely loses since they would be Sonar-less under that model.
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Andrew Rossa
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/10/28 17:51:27
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scook
This would mean the shares are not publicly traded. The company still has shareholders.
And yet still irrelevant to the purpose of the survey, which is to understand how customers use and buy software. If you were in charge of trying to understand your customers, and you forgot to ask about subscription, that would seem like a glaring hole, right? If you look at the survey there are all sorts of questions about usage and buying behavior that help paint a picture. The goal here is to understand your needs and build better products that you will love. Nothing to do with shareholders. A happy customer is good for everyone and that's what we've always been focused on.
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paulo
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Re: Please don't move to a subscription model
2014/10/28 17:51:44
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Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk]
we like to know more about our customers and how they use and purchase our software.....
We appreciate the feedback and will use it to make better products and help improve the SONAR experience for all customers.
I'm curious as to why you don't ask all of them then ?
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scook
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/10/28 18:08:28
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My comment was directed at the observation that Gibson Brands was privately held. I don't understand the distinction between public and private companies in this case. It would appear that you don't either.
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stickman393
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Re: Please don't move to a subscription model
2014/10/28 18:22:49
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paulo
Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk]
we like to know more about our customers and how they use and purchase our software.....
We appreciate the feedback and will use it to make better products and help improve the SONAR experience for all customers.
I'm curious as to why you don't ask all of them then ?
There is no need. Probability Sampling Theory.
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joden
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Re: Please don't move to a subscription model
2014/10/28 18:27:17
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It has nothing to do with what users want at all. I think CW staff are being a bit disingenuous here. This was a bit like politicians raising an issue then saying "...oh it is not going to happen or it was only for discussion". The point is the comments are used to "soften the way" for future implementation which was ALWAYS going to happen and was pre-planned, the rest is purely bumpf to get the public used to the idea. 24hour news cycle means within three days the issue is forgotten, but then months later when it IS implemented you get the story "...well we did advise it was coming..."
The subscription model in all software creates FAR more income with far less overheads than having to release full version software. Alos removes a lot of the "piracy" aspect as well. Personally I totally disagree with it, UNLESS a user can continue using the software at its current level even if subs are no longer paid (after a 12 month initial commitment) - IE no upgrades or improvements unless subs are paid again.
Although really, it is a slippery slope CW are looking at starting out on. Not everyone likes to have data up in the sky. Just look at recent events with Apple and other "online storage" that gets hacked. The security CANNOT be 100% guaranteed.
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backwoods
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Re: Please don't move to a subscription model
2014/10/28 18:40:27
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We need a crystal ball here. If companies could make far more money they might be able to improve the daw more quickly. Or would no one sign up and choose an alternate daw (which most people already have). But maybe the non cloud daws will soon be broke. It's not a huge segment of the pop that use daws and there are about 25 makes. Mix in a bit of piracy and people stuck on old versions and I imagine no one is really making much money.
Now we see Cakewalk advertising for iOS guru.
If it was a monthly thing and there were major bugs the company would have to patch urgently. Hells Bells, I'm just going to wait and see to understand how it pans out.
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Guitarpima
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Re: Please don't move to a subscription model
2014/10/28 18:42:03
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You can debate the issue all you like. Everything will go to subscription whether you like it or not. The other side of the coin is what will happen when it does. Nobody is going to stand for it yet, it will happen. The known is the problem of hackers and it is also the unknown for it is hacker that are driving the push toward subscription. The other push is quite simply waste. A subscription service will not be as wasteful as CDs floating around or even paper. Let's face it, the way things work now is extremely wasteful though not as wasteful as capitalism which is yet another side of the issue.
I say stop complaining about it and just deal with it. Software companies need to "deal with it" as well when it comes to making the user experience a pleasant one. By that I mean making it so anyone who has an interest in using said software can actually use it. TBH, I welcome it. I'm sick to death of clutter.
Notation, the original DAW. Everything else is just rote. We are who we are and no more than another. Humans, you people are crazy. Win 7 x64 X2 Intel DX58SO, Intel i7 920 2.66ghz 12gb DDR3 ASUS ATI EAH5750 650w PSU 4x WD HDs 320gb DVD, DVD RW Eleven Rack, KRK Rokit 8s and 10s sub
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joden
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Re: Please don't move to a subscription model
2014/10/28 18:56:07
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When most actually opt for a download method of delivery and not CD's your argument loses most of it's impact.
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Anderton
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Re: Please don't move to a subscription model
2014/10/28 18:59:43
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Guitarpima
You can debate the issue all you like. Everything will go to subscription whether you like it or not.
If that's true, then companies will likely compete to come up with more appealing plans than other companies in order to gain market share. And I think your point about waste is pretty astute. For example, I noticed that the new TASCAM interfaces come with no media - you get download codes for SONAR and Live, and directions to the web site for the latest drivers. Most other interface companies seem to be going that way. I suspect the concept of media shipping with software will end very soon unless the program has like 100GB of samples...in which case it will probably ship on a hard drive, like Native Instruments does with Komplete Ultimate. backwoods
Now we see Cakewalk advertising for iOS guru.
Scratchpad got nominated for a TEC award and the Z3TZ+ iOs was the best-selling music app for a while...wouldn't be surprised if they want to beef up that end of things. Or hey, maybe an iPad control surface for the hovercraft! Hells Bells, I'm just going to wait and see to understand how it pans out.
Hey, why spoil the fun of rampant uninformed speculation? If it wasn't for that, half the publications in supermarket checkout stands would cease to exist . Besides, I think a discussion about where the future is heading is always good and/or fun, even if most of it turns out wrong.
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dke
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out
2014/10/28 19:02:17
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Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk]
dke
Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk]
Oh boy. There were like 35 other questions on the survey. Who wants to talk about rollbacks? :)
Seriously though, I don't think it's such a bad thing to try and understand how users purchase software these days. The more information we have, the better we can service our customers. So all these questions had a purpose...to try and understand our customers better. I've been at Cakewalk for 12+ years and one thing has always remained true... we are very customer focused. So please keep that in mind as you speculate on how SONAR will evolve.
My position is even though I answered the previous questions with no uncertainty that I would not support a subscription model, to answer $9.99/mo or 99.99/yr would imply, push comes to shove I would accept a subscription model. An answer of "None of the Above" or skip, would have been a valid answer in keeping with my feelings on the matter and to me should have been an obvious choice.
There is nothing wrong with trying to understand how users purchase software these days, and I had no problem with the questions other than when a question omits an important choice in the context of the questions, to me it is leading the user to answer in a desired way rather than actual feelings on the matter.
I'm not speculating on how Sonar evolves, I'm just stating my feelings on the matter.
Dan
So if I ask you: There's a product you are ready buy and it costs $99, would you rather pay for it up front or a little more over time, you would just say 'skip question'. Because I assume if it's a product you are interested in then you'd just buy it for $99. I don't believe subscription was part of the equation unless it's a subscription product. In that case, it's still a valid question if you want to buy it. Maybe the question could have been restated to clarify that but the assumption is this is a product you want to buy.
I don't think there is any doubt that the question pertained to a subscription, at least not in my mind. It came at the end of 3 or 4 questions pertaining to subscription. That or are you guys considering financing peoples software purchases? :) 1 of the answers could have been "I prefer/will only buy my software outright", if Skip and None of the Above aren't satisfactory. Dan
Sonar Platinum ( x64), Windows 10 x64, HP Envy i5 2.9GHZ, 8GB, Tascam 4x4 USB, BX5a Monitors.
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dubdisciple
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Re: Please don't move to a subscription model
2014/10/28 19:04:01
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I don't think Adobe's model has anything do with hacking since it has not reduced hacking one bit. It is just as easy to get hacked cloud apps. the key difference being that they don't update as fast. Photoshop was hacked within 24 hours of release. I think it it had more to do with ensuring customers going forward had to upgrade. As i mentioned in another thread Adobe kept altering upgrade policy more and more to discourage skipping upgrades. Cloud was just the coup de grace
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