mattplaysguitar
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Re:The reason why speaker stands are so important
2010/12/04 22:23:15
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mike_mccue
"It's about the speaker's ability to stop moving when the signal stops."
And we both know what the coil is for. :-) The magnet could care less if the whole driver assembly is moving 120 miles an hour in a bullet train... or my Honda mini van :-).
You must be speaking of some pretty dog eared cheap junky speakers if you think the motor cares about the inertia of the driver frame.
Motor? Since when did a speaker have a motor?.....
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:The reason why speaker stands are so important
2010/12/04 22:33:06
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Well, I sincerely expect that you know and understand that a speaker (edit to add: I should have said "most speakers"... like 97% of them) is an AC motor... I assume you are just joking... right? :-)
post edited by mike_mccue - 2010/12/04 22:36:54
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mattplaysguitar
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Re:The reason why speaker stands are so important
2010/12/04 22:44:10
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Mike, determining the stiffness of your device can be complicated. Yes, it depends on young's modulus, as well as how it is fixed, or not fixed. It depends on the shape of the device as well. Modulus of elasticity (young's modulus) is only one variable on the way to calculating the overall stiffness of the system - which can change depending on your frame of reference. I think I'm probably going to go around in circles here because there are whole books on this stuff and to fully explain it (not that I know all of it anyway) just takes forever.
You mention that most metals and many matrixed materials have resonant characterisics etc. Ok, a material itself will not have a specific frequency it resonates at. You need to know the shape of the material, the size, the mass and what perspective you're looking from as well as how it is fixed (if it is even fixed at all). A simple beam of length x width x breadth will have a modulus which relates to the stiffness, which combined with mass and overall system stiffness (in on direction) you can get a natural frequency. Then add in dampening effects and you get the damped natural frequency. Lets say this long beam is fixed from one end. Lets say it's a simple speaker stand made from a beam. It has a different width and breadth. So it has two different natural frequencies. BUT, what about the angles of between those two extremes? So now we have infinite natural frequencies, but they won't be as significant as the other two. Now lets say the beam has carbon fibre down one side. You change modulus of elasticity, but mostly from just one section. It just gets more and more compliated. Even this very simple beam just goes crazy. Let's just make it a cyclinder.
So, modulus of eleasticity,if you increase it, you will increase the natural frequency if the millions of other parameters stay te same. There are so many variables in determining the stiffness. The equations all depend on the system you are looking at. You'll probably need a complicated computer program to work it out. So screw it, just make your stand heavy and be done with it! Or overdamp it with padding. Both SHOULD be able to give similar results if done properly.
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mattplaysguitar
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Re:The reason why speaker stands are so important
2010/12/04 22:52:33
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mike_mccue
Well, I sincerely expect that you know and understand that a speaker (edit to add: I should have said "most speakers"... like 97% of them) is an AC motor... I assume you are just joking... right?
:-)
It's not a motor! It runs off the same physics that many motors rely upon, but it ain't a motor! A motor creates rotary motion, a speaker only results in linear motion.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:The reason why speaker stands are so important
2010/12/04 23:06:40
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Matt, I don't see any need to argue about this... many manufacturers and all my old text books routinely refer to a speaker as an AC motor.
very best,
mike
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:The reason why speaker stands are so important
2010/12/04 23:15:16
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"So, modulus of eleasticity,if you increase it, you will increase the natural frequency if the millions of other parameters stay te same. There are so many variables in determining the stiffness. The equations all depend on the system you are looking at. You'll probably need a complicated computer program to work it out. So screw it, just make your stand heavy and be done with it! Or overdamp it with padding. Both SHOULD be able to give similar results if done properly."
Right, so in this instance the context is a column approx 30-40" tall and probably 10"x10" in section.
Feel free to suggest some other shape and we can just use that for the discussion.
So, if that stays constant... we are back to materials analysis.
best,
mike
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mattplaysguitar
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Re:The reason why speaker stands are so important
2010/12/04 23:30:53
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mike_mccue
Matt, I don't see any need to argue about this... many manufacturers and all my old text books routinely refer to a speaker as an AC motor.
very best,
mike
Sorry if I sound argumentative, it's just the way things come across when typed  I guess you could get away with calling them a motor, but a more appropriate term I think would be an actuator. Motor IMPLIES (at least to me) rotatory motion, whereas actuator is a more general term in which motors and loudspeakers fit into. Anywho, enough on that, I know what you're saying.
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guitartrek
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Re:The reason why speaker stands are so important
2010/12/05 00:29:31
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Matt - you don't sound agrumentative. You sound like an engineer. (I have nothing against engineers!)
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:The reason why speaker stands are so important
2010/12/05 08:25:36
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"Sorry if I sound argumentative, it's just the way things come across when typed I guess you could get away with calling them a motor, but a more appropriate term I think would be an actuator. Motor IMPLIES (at least to me) rotatory motion, whereas actuator is a more general term in which motors and loudspeakers fit into. Anywho, enough on that, I know what you're saying." The fallacy of the argument is that there is historical precedent which refutes the assessment. Speakers have been and continue to be known as motors. Furthermore, you are simply making up the part about motors being confined to rotary motion. I understand the conventions you are referring too but they do not limit the meaning of a word and certainly do not eliminate the existence of precedent use. I hope you all know I like ya a bunch. best regards mike
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Guitarhacker
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Re:The reason why speaker stands are so important
2010/12/05 10:06:47
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mattplaysguitar
mike_mccue
"It's about the speaker's ability to stop moving when the signal stops."
And we both know what the coil is for. :-) The magnet could care less if the whole driver assembly is moving 120 miles an hour in a bullet train... or my Honda mini van :-).
You must be speaking of some pretty dog eared cheap junky speakers if you think the motor cares about the inertia of the driver frame.
Motor? Since when did a speaker have a motor?.....
although a speaker has linear motion, it has the same components of any other basic electric motor. A coil and a magnet, and the freedom to convert that electrical & magnetic energy into motion. The main difference is that the speaker moves in and out whereas the electric motor results in a rotational motion. Both are motors in that sense. (but that's not important) When the signal stops to the speaker, there will be a tendency for the cone to oscillate back and forth with out power applied until it comes back to it's quiescent state. that oscillation creates sound...kind of like a reverb tail. The lower freqs are more affected then the higher ones by the cones movement, due to the excursion of the cone being greater on the lower freqs. I don't see how the material of the speaker cabinet would have any sort of major affect on that movement of the cone after the signal stops. That movement would be more dependent on the material of the cone and the flexible material connection to the speaker frame. I have seen some that are rubber (Cerwin Vega) and some that are cloth and others that are simply paper. The only effective way to stop a cone from oscillating after the end of a signal would be to have a reversed polarity signal sent to stop the cone. The problem with this as I see it..... the amp in question would have to know quite a bit about the speaker it was driving..... all the specs would come into play, size, wattage, efficiency, cone material, basket material, voice coil size, impedance at frequency, and probably lots of other things that I didn't list here... just to be able to stop the cone from oscillating .....oh yeah, and the important one.... it would have to monitor the exact movement of the cone in real time to adjust it's "stop moving" signal. just my thoughts and 2 centavos.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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Eotm
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Re:The reason why speaker stands are so important
2010/12/05 11:42:37
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Jeff Evans: Take two poweramps that have a totally flat response from 10 Hz to say 50 KHz. Yet one was clearly brighter than the other. (not huge but definately top end was different from one to the other) Why is that? Not to completely derail the thread, but I couldn't let this one pass. What was the output impedance vs. frequency of the amps? What was the input impedance vs. frequency of the speakers they were driving? There can be huge impedance swings when you plot it with respect to frequency, and that can have a huge impact on sound. When you're trying to drive a speaker that has an impedance that dips down to 0.5 ohms at a certain frequency range, you might run into trouble with your amp. Of course the standard frequency response will tell you nothing about that.
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guitartrek
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Re:The reason why speaker stands are so important
2010/12/05 11:44:18
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mattplaysguitar
mike_mccue
Well, I sincerely expect that you know and understand that a speaker (edit to add: I should have said "most speakers"... like 97% of them) is an AC motor... I assume you are just joking... right?
:-)
It's not a motor! It runs off the same physics that many motors rely upon, but it ain't a motor! A motor creates rotary motion, a speaker only results in linear motion.
Here's a definition of a Motor coming out of the American Heritage Dictionary. 1) Something, such as a machine or an engine, that produces or imparts motion. 2) A device that converts any form of energy into mechanical energy, especially an internal-combustion engine or an arrangement of coils and magnets that converts electric current into mechanical power. 3) A motor vehicle, especially an automobile. I don't see anywhere in this definition that says a motor must create rotary motion? In fact, from this definition, Mike is correct - since Speakers convert electrical energy into mechanical energy. Or maybe I'm wrong - I'll admit that I'm not an engineer. Matt - what publication is saying that a motor must create rotary motion? I'm eager to learn.
post edited by guitartrek - 2010/12/05 11:46:32
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jhughs
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Re:The reason why speaker stands are so important
2010/12/05 11:55:57
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Just to inject some levity into the discussion...
Jeff Evans
You can quote theories all you want but the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
...reminds me of one of my favorite Yogi Bear quotes: "In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is."
ASUS P5ND/Intel E8500, Line6 Toneport UX2/PODFarm, Sonar, Axiom 25, Blue Bluebird, Audio-Technica AT3035s, Blue Snowflake, Line6 Spider IV 150 & AMPLIFI, Crate 1 J Hughs Soundclick
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guitartrek
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Re:The reason why speaker stands are so important
2010/12/05 12:29:16
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And Matt - Here are definitions of Dampen:
1) To make damp.
2) To deaden, restrain, or depress
3) To soundproof
I don't see any mention of fluid dampeners.
I guess, in my non-engineering mind, I was using the word "Dampen" to mean "Restrain". When I said that vibrations were dampened, I meant they were restrained. But that is not the appropriate Mechanical Engineering use of the term and this thread is really about physics. Thanks for setting me straight.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:The reason why speaker stands are so important
2010/12/05 12:47:45
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Most shock absorbers are familiar examples of fluid dampening systems.
Gas or air shocks are functioning under the rules of fluid dynamics. The gas/air is a spring and the viscous liquid is the dampener.
I do know another specific example. The motor mounts in my Honda Mini Van are rubber filled with dampening fluid. The rubber provides the resonance or spring and the fluid soaks up the excess vibrations.
all the best,
mike
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guitartrek
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Re:The reason why speaker stands are so important
2010/12/05 13:22:06
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Thanks Mike for clearing that up. Just to make sure you know that when I introduced the term Dampen into this thread I was refering to it's definition "To restrain". However, Matt thought that Dampen only had to do with fluid Dynamics. It's very interesting to hear about shock absorbers and and gas/air springs. We buy a lot of gas / air spring cylinders - we've had to import the specific ones we use from Germany - wish we could find a manufacture in America that makes the ones we need - 170 neutons, 15" stroke. If you know someone let me know. However, now we're way off topic.
Again - to clarify - when I said Dampen I meant Restrain. Sorry to throw you guys so far off topic. But it is entertaining! And educational at the same time!
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quantumeffect
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Re:The reason why speaker stands are so important
2010/12/05 13:38:49
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Just to inject some levity into the discussion...
Jeff Evans
You can quote theories all you want but the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
...reminds me of one of my favorite Yogi Bear quotes: "In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is."
... and to add even more levity ... I think that quote is attributable to Yogi Berra not Yogi Bear!
Dave 8.5 PE 64, i7 Studio Cat, Delta 1010, GMS and Ludwig Drums, Paiste Cymbals "Everyone knows rock n' roll attained perfection in 1974. It's a scientific fact." H. Simpson "His chops are too righteous." Plankton during Sponge Bob's guitar solo
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quantumeffect
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Re:The reason why speaker stands are so important
2010/12/05 14:03:13
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mattplaysguitar
mike_mccue
Well, I sincerely expect that you know and understand that a speaker (edit to add: I should have said "most speakers"... like 97% of them) is an AC motor... I assume you are just joking... right?
:-)
It's not a motor! It runs off the same physics that many motors rely upon, but it ain't a motor! A motor creates rotary motion, a speaker only results in linear motion.
Here's a definition of a Motor coming out of the American Heritage Dictionary.
1) Something, such as a machine or an engine, that produces or imparts motion.
2) A device that converts any form of energy into mechanical energy, especially an internal-combustion engine or an arrangement of coils and magnets that converts electric current into mechanical power.
3) A motor vehicle, especially an automobile.
I don't see anywhere in this definition that says a motor must create rotary motion? In fact, from this definition, Mike is correct - since Speakers convert electrical energy into mechanical energy. Or maybe I'm wrong - I'll admit that I'm not an engineer. Matt - what publication is saying that a motor must create rotary motion? I'm eager to learn.
A “speaker” is a transducer … it converts one form of energy into another. The transducer is typically composed of a basket, magnet, voice coil, spider, cone and surround. The term speaker is colloquially used to refer to either the (1) transducer or (2) transducers + cabinet. The terms “speaker motor” or “motor” are often used in patent and technical literature to refer to the transducer … and the term “speaker” used to describe the transducers + cabinet. By definition a motor is something that imparts motion. Included in that is a devise that converts one form of energy into mechanical energy. So, yes, a speaker is a motor. I’ve also heard just the magnet assembly referred to as a motor assembly.
post edited by quantumeffect - 2010/12/05 14:05:14
Dave 8.5 PE 64, i7 Studio Cat, Delta 1010, GMS and Ludwig Drums, Paiste Cymbals "Everyone knows rock n' roll attained perfection in 1974. It's a scientific fact." H. Simpson "His chops are too righteous." Plankton during Sponge Bob's guitar solo
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Jonbouy
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Re:The reason why speaker stands are so important
2010/12/06 04:36:54
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Don't some of these new fangled Rapid Transit systems run on linear induction motors which look all the world to me very suspiciously like the way a speaker is working albeit without being restrained by a cone captive in a basket? Hey, does that mean that early on all my loudspeakers wanted to be train drivers too?
post edited by Jonbouy - 2010/12/06 04:42:01
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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quantumeffect
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Re:The reason why speaker stands are so important
2010/12/06 09:45:53
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Hey, does that mean that early on all my loudspeakers wanted to be train drivers too?
I suspect that if your speakers had their druthers ... they would have been rail guns.
Dave 8.5 PE 64, i7 Studio Cat, Delta 1010, GMS and Ludwig Drums, Paiste Cymbals "Everyone knows rock n' roll attained perfection in 1974. It's a scientific fact." H. Simpson "His chops are too righteous." Plankton during Sponge Bob's guitar solo
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bitflipper
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Re:The reason why speaker stands are so important
2010/12/06 11:15:34
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...reminds me of one of my favorite Yogi Bear quotes: "In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." That was actually Yogi Berra, the baseball player, not Yogi Bear, the Hanna-Barbera cartoon character. Gotta give proper credit! Now, here's an actual Yogi Bear quote that might be appropriate for certain threads: Nothing. Nothing, nothing, nothing. Nooothing. And because you're such a good kid, here's another nothing, for nothing.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Jeff Evans
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Re:The reason why speaker stands are so important
2010/12/06 14:50:39
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A few other observations. My studio is on the ground floor of a two story building and when playing music down there it was quite noticeable on the floor above, especially bottom end. Since putting the speakers on the heavy stands, I have noticed the level above is quite less now. Almost low enough to not disturb even when the levels are at 85 db SPL or over downstairs in the studio. This is because I think anyway, now that no other surfaces are vibrating they are now not contributing to the noise upstairs. Also there will be some mix perception changes. As the bottom end has dropped slightly and for the better, I am hearing mids and highs more loudly I have noticed. This will reflect itself into mixes. It means I could end up emphasising the bottom end a little and holding back on mids and highs by just a small degree. The mixes could come out with a fatter bottom end and a smoother mids and highs as a result. It shows that even small changes in the perceived frequency spectrum will be reflect themselves in a mix. I have not mixed on the new stands yet but will shortly I am sure. It is interesting and quite revealing to put some low frequencies into your monitors and at reasonable volumes and see how things sound and rattle and vibrate. This is intended for non sub people of course. (Good notes are bottom E of course of a bass guitar and the D below it. Sounds that are very warm are good too. Synth pads that have very little information above 500 Hz are great too, ie warm and deep sounding) Another good thing to do is to pan the low deep notes one side then the other and compare the amount of bass energy that is present with each speaker in turn. You might be surprised how out of balance they might be due to positioning in the room. eg non symmetry
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2010/12/06 16:32:51
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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skullsession
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Re:The reason why speaker stands are so important
2010/12/06 15:26:32
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I'm going to go puke now...
Let me know if it vibrates anything.
HOOK: Skullsessions.com / Darwins God Album "Without a doubt I would have far greater listening and aural skills than most of the forum members here. Not all but many I am sure....I have done more listening than most people." - Jeff Evans on how awesome Jeff Evans is.
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mattplaysguitar
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Re:The reason why speaker stands are so important
2010/12/06 16:54:18
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Jeff Evans
A few other observations. My studio is on the ground floor of a two story building and when playing music down there it was quite noticeable on the floor above, especially bottom end. Since putting the speakers on the heavy stands, I have noticed the level above is quite less now. Almost low enough to not disturb even when the levels are at 85 db SPL or over downstairs in the studio. This is because I think anyway, now that no other surfaces are vibrating they are now not contributing to the noise upstairs.
The reason for that I believe is due to density of materials. Sound does not travel well through mediums of different densities. The reason they use that lube when you get an ultrasound it so that the density of the ultrasound, through the lube, through into the body is reasonably similar. It ensures a more effective transference of sound. If you didn't use the lube, there would be small air gaps between the patient and the ultrasound. The density of air is considerably less than the lube and this would impeded sound transmission. And also the lube obviously makes it much easier to slide the ultrasound around! This is an example I was given in a subject on transmission of sound at uni. Another example is a person in a pool. You can't hear someone outside the water and they can't hear you - because of the differences in densities. This is why (or at least one reason why) we like air gaps in soundproofing. If I am correct (which I certainly am not always) then I believe that the high density of your stands is helping reduce the transference of sound into the structure of your house (which if it is wood - this would be more noticeable) so it can make it upstairs and use the floor there as a sounding board. Again, if it's concrete, that little gap of carpet between the stands and floor could help too. Same with if it's a wooden floor. Sound potentially feasible with the structure of your house??
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mattplaysguitar
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Re:The reason why speaker stands are so important
2010/12/06 17:01:00
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I would also like to admit defeat on the speaker motor front. Thankyou Mike for showing me the way!!!
As for my other views, I'm not entirely sure where my opinion stands now. So I might just take the route of "using high density stands in this case gave good results. The end." But I am now thinking along the lines of different densities of materials reducing the transference of sound, as per my above post.... I have a new theory every day! I need to stop being so sure of my opinions too early... I did actually do some calculations on this and now it's looking like that high density stand would be INCREASING the natural frequency away from the bass range whereas a desk might still be in the ball park for bass. A little calculation I did was getting ~2500hz natural frequency for concrete... But this uses a few assumptions I'm not sure are correct.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:The reason why speaker stands are so important
2010/12/06 18:24:12
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Matt, you are a true gentleman.
And your input on the subject of resonance has been a great contribution.
best,
mike
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Jeff Evans
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Re:The reason why speaker stands are so important
2010/12/06 18:26:55
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Thanks Matt for your input. I have also noticed that there must have been a fair bit of floor vibration before because it is not there now. It used to give a deeper rumble to the mix but it has gone really. So for those interested in doing the low freq tests I have mentioned, feel the floor as well and see how much that is moving too. The bass is still there but it seems to be coming at you more directly. This might prompt me into a sub a low volume just maybe to put that deeper feel bass back. I think I miss the deeper bass compared to the more direct bass now but maybe I will get to love it. It certainly sounds less coloured and I hear improved distinctions between commercial CD's. I like doing things in D just to get that lovely low sound. But I have just listened to Sting 'Thousand Years' from Brand New Day and I must say it sounded sensational. Another great track is 'Perfect Love..Gone Wrong' There are some serious low bass notes in that track. That whole album is a delight. Your point about coupling to the floor being less sounds good to me as well. There is no slab between the studio and floor above. We are renting, it is not our house but I have adapted it well. I can't record voice overs if people are walking around above. Also the table was shaking like a woofer itself and that has stopped so less bass energy being created means less noise above. It is going to be better for the people directly next door to me. There is a solid wall between us and it is about 6" thick but I know they have heard me on ocassions! OK there is more. The SPL level in the room is now higher before the Mackie Overload trip circuits start to make their presence felt. Before I could only get to about 103 db SPL before the red lights started coming on especially with low end bass in the mix. Now it is just over 110 db SPL. That is quite a difference up that loud. It means the table vibrations from before were not helping the situation, they were subtracting from it.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2010/12/06 19:43:53
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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guitartrek
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Re:The reason why speaker stands are so important
2010/12/06 18:55:15
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Here's another thing to consider - maybe you guys know this off the top of your heads. A while back we bought some Vandersteen speakers for our entertainment system from an audiophile store. While they are not "pro" they are great reference speakers, and in the world of audiophiles they have a pretty good reputation. They are floor standing taller speakers. But on the bottom they have 4 needles that they stand on. The needles go right through the capeting and into the wood floor below. The bass response on these things are really great - there is no vibration of anything and the bass seems to be very "true".
The surround speakers we bought from the same place came with speaker stands that have a metal plate that the speakers sit on about 2' high. On this plate there are 4 inverted "needles" or metal cones that the speakers sit on. The the bottom of these stands also have needles that go into the floor. These speaker stands are light weight - not much mass, but they sure isolate the Bass frequencies.
I think that if you reduce the area that the speaker comes in contact with (in this case small points), it must be another way to reduce sympathetic vibration?
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:The reason why speaker stands are so important
2010/12/06 18:59:21
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Those are the cone feet I was speaking of.
There are, in my opinion, one of the almost universally useful ways to place a speaker. The idea is older than me... and it always seems to help... most of the time so effectively that I take them for granted.
best regards,
mike
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mattplaysguitar
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Re:The reason why speaker stands are so important
2010/12/06 19:33:32
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I believe the idea of these is to effectively create an air gap between the speakers and the floor, thus dramatic changes in material desnsities occur, and the transference of sound is minimal. Obviously we can't make the speakers float, so these cones are the next best (cheap) thing. I 'think' the idea of placing foam between your monitors and stand/floor operates on the same principle. It's all densities... An acousticly soundproofed room often consists of a massive conrete slab sitting above a concrete floor with rubber pads (or something similar to the pins mentioned above) to create an air gap between the two massively dense concrete floors. Again, sound transference into and out of the room is minimal.
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