The reason why speaker stands are so important

For years I have been yearning to get my monitors (Mackie HR 824's) onto some decent solid stands. But instead I have had a variety of setups. One for a long time with the monitors directly on the same table as screen/mixer etc. And no matter how hard I have tried to decouple the monitors from the table by many means it never seems to quite do it. There is always some vibration. Another setup was the speakers on a separate shelf behind my main table but it vibrated instead. (the shelf was not on a wall but free standing on the floor and quite a solid structure)

I have always thought the bottom end was a little coloured down there and loud even. But recently I aquired a pair of concrete stands in a Greek style designed for outdoor plants. (cheap too from a used office furniture place) They are at the exact height and heavy. I mean seriously heavy. 2 person lift and hard work for them. They sit very solidly on the floor. After some organising I finally got them into action today. The sound is completely different in the low register. It is like I have bought another pair of speakers. Firstly nothing and I mean nothing else in the studio vibrates. No matter how loud and how low. The actual cabinets of the speakers themselves seem to be vibrating less. Bass is softer and smoother and more direct. Hits you a little harder. Changed the bottom end completely of the Mackies. I was expecting maybe a more subtle improvement. This is not subtle!

I know some of you are building some accurate setups. Do some tests. Feed some very low frequencies eg 40 Hz and a  little lower at high power (important because nothing really gets going until you start cranking it) and see what you can hear. Feel around all the surfaces and check for stray vibrations. This will also uncover any rattles in your control room. Are only the speakers moving air? If something else is vibrating as well, it too is generating sound and moving air. Could be in phase or out of phase with the speakers. I think it has been booming the bass in my setup a bit until now. Some notes were a bit louder than others due to resonant frequencies of various things in the room. For Mackie owners too (or any monitors that use passive radiators) feed in the same low and loud notes and check around the back of your monitor. It should be clean and smooth back there too.

This all uncovered a rattle too in my right speaker at very low notes and loud. (never heard it before) It turned out to be the wires (woofer, tweeter wires) in the back coming through from the inside of the enclosure into the back amplifier area. They found thmselves in contact with the passive radiator. Simple fix.  Also while I had it all apart I found most of the screws and bolts and things were not tight. (not loose either but all could be tightened up) You need to get into your active speakers and tighten everything up from time to time. We do give em stick so it must be natural for things to start coming undone. (I am lucky, I can produce some serious volume levels for long periods without any complaint and I do it!, well sometimes anyway)

The stands kill the speakers on the same table or work bench area by far. (even on pads etc) For anyone thinking about going speaker stands, do it, but make them heavy though. There is no vibration in the stands either as expected. I have seen some of you bolted monitors to the wall or the wall that separates control room from recording space. Do the low freq test and up loud and make sure the wall is not moving either. Unless it is brick it will be moving. No good. Your bottom end will be out of wack.

Putting the speakers on stands will seriously effect your sound and for the better. I know many of you have compact setups and this info is not so relevent but these ideas are for those of you that have the room and you need the room to do it well. The monitors need to be on stands behind your work area and the speakers still need to be a good 2 feet (or more)  from any wall as well. So you need at least 5 feet or so from the rear edge of your work table to the wall.

I suppose the idea is to try and make the stands completely inert and not move or vibrate in any way either. With a lighter stand there would be fair bit of vibration on the bottom of your monitor and if the stand was allowed to move itself then it could perhaps vibrate as well. Good question because I have not tried lighter stands.

When I was working for Roland last year doing V Studio demos at a trade show, there was a monitor stand guy just around the corner. They wanted insane amounts for their stands (like $1000 pair, I got mine for $190 for a pair)  but they were heavy. Very large hollow steel structures filled with sand so that is where I got the idea of the solid stand concept from. Not adjustable either. You had to order the height. I was not even looking for them and they were deisgned for something else obviously. But I thought the weight would be an advantage, I think I was right.

I think the reasoning why the stand concept is good is because of the lack of vibration in everything else. If nothing else is vibrating and only your speakers are the only things moving air then it must be a good thing. I remember from my old Hi Fi days that in some of the setups I was invited to listen to, and they were amazing, those purists had nothing between the speakers and you. (Bob Katz talks about this too in his mastering book) Of course we cant all do this for obvious reasons. I can hear the difference when you push your screen back so it is behind your speakers.

I am very experienced in listening tests.  After all I picked the file recently in the analog summing test that many thought was so good (you included) and yet it was really the inferior one. And the more I listen to those two examples the clearer the difference is to me especially when you start really hearing the details in there.

mike_mccue


Why do the stands have to be heavy?

Just guessing here... the mass of the stands, if they are heavier, would take more energy to get them moving/vibrating with the speakers.  Like having the speakers on a wood framed floor verses a concrete floor.

The sympathetic vibration aspect makes perfect sense to me. If the speaker is on a wooden desk or a shelf, the material is light and will vibrate/radiate the sound easily.

Back when I was a kid, and had my first electric guitar, before I had an amp, I would close the bedroom door and press the headstock to the center of the hollow wood core door, and it would radiate the sound so I could actually hear the notes much better... it was kinda hard to play it like that but it did resonate the notes for me. My buddy's bass really sounded good with this method... then we finally were able to buy some amps.... and my mom made us go to the basement.

As Jeff pointed out, IF I had the room to do this I would surely do it, using the heavy stands, however, lacking the room currently, I am confined to my less than optimal set up.

Guitarhacker

mike_mccue


Why do the stands have to be heavy?

Just guessing here... the mass of the stands, if they are heavier, would take more energy to get them moving/vibrating with the speakers.  Like having the speakers on a wood framed floor verses a concrete floor.

The sympathetic vibration aspect makes perfect sense to me. If the speaker is on a wooden desk or a shelf, the material is light and will vibrate/radiate the sound easily.

Back when I was a kid, and had my first electric guitar, before I had an amp, I would close the bedroom door and press the headstock to the center of the hollow wood core door, and it would radiate the sound so I could actually hear the notes much better... it was kinda hard to play it like that but it did resonate the notes for me. My buddy's bass really sounded good with this method... then we finally were able to buy some amps.... and my mom made us go to the basement.

As Jeff pointed out, IF I had the room to do this I would surely do it, using the heavy stands, however, lacking the room currently, I am confined to my less than optimal set up.

Herb, with all due respect... that is exactly the sort of quasi logic I was saying that I have encounterd since I was a kid hanging out in stereo stores. The pointy cone feet guys and the foam pad guys and the light weight non resonant stand guys all have the same sort of kinda technical stuff to say.

very best regards,
mike

If we are gonna start talking physics we should point out that mass and resonance are only related... there is no constant that correlates resonance to mass. Resonance is correlated to atomic and molecular structure and the mass is a factor of that but only a factor.

With regards to Jeff having improved his listening situation. I am sincerely gladdened to learn that this has happened and have mentioned it in the previous post.

all the best,
mike

So the rigidity reduces how much movement?

Let's say there is 0.25" less movement ( I'm being incredibly generous here... assuming the comparison is to some noticeably rickety stand that's being buffeted by wind) and we are speaking about hearing an improvement in the phase coherency of a 20 foot wave length? What are we really hearing?

Decoupling speakers is about eliminating or dampening resonance... lots of highly dense materials transmit sound very effectively and can couple to another surface very effectively.

BTW. Stone speakers are considered silly by all the folks who know that 1-1/2" of MDF has proven to be more far effective.

You can easily make a wonderful xylophone or wind chime out of most igneous or metamorphic stone material (ok the sedimentary stuff may fall apart)... you can't really do that with MDF.

I've gone down all the roads... pointy feet... solid concrete... sand filled plywood pedestals... and now I use the cheap Onstage metal stands because in my opinion using them to achieve optimum placement and freedom from early reflections is the greatest benefit any stand can offer.

I'd be real curious to see how much movement my monitors exhibits on either my tubular steel stand, a solid concrete pedestal, or some of those nifty foam pads on either type of pedestal (your choice)... What would we measure the movement with? An electron microscope maybe? Or some highly accurate laser system? I'd be curious because I don't think my monitors are moving in any way that we can notice simply by looking real close.

best,
mike
 

 

Concrete isn't that expensive per bag. You can get column forms made out of heavy cardboard at Lowes/Home Depot ... etc and make your own to a custom height. Maybe wrap them in some carpet to make them look better and for some acoustic treatment. Maybe paint them?

I bet you could make a pair of stands for under $50.

I think this was a great idea you had Jeff and it makes total sense to me. Kind of like in the old days of having your turntable hung from the ceiling on springs, it's all about controlling vibration.

I've tried the foam pads and didn't see a difference at all. Maybe because I have a small room and my acoustics are bad to start with.

I agree Jonbouy that one can spend a lot of time chasing very small improvements and yes making music is far more important. But in my case the difference was not small, it was fairly major and since the whole bottom end has changed and I honestly feel for the better, then I think it one of those things that is well worth doing.

Moving speakers around too can be very obvious but I have moved my monitors around before but never heard a change like this.

And one does not have to get over technical about things like measuring how much a speaker cabinet or surface vibrates. A simple test with some loud low notes will quickly reveal if you have any vibrating surfaces going on. Back to the old ears and just listening (and feeling) for the differences instead of measuring.

And FYI Mike there is no vibration in the stands of any sort. Even when the speakers are putting out serious volume and low frequencies, the stands are absolutely vibration free. All the way down from right under the speaker to the floor. So there is no vibration transmission into the floor either. I think that was what Dave was talking about. Resting the speakers on a surface that is holding the speakers rigidly in place.

Jeff Evans


I agree Jonbouy that one can spend a lot of time chasing very small improvements and yes making music is far more important. But in my case the difference was not small, it was fairly major and since the whole bottom end has changed and I honestly feel for the better, then I think it one of those things that is well worth doing.

Moving speakers around too can be very obvious but I have moved my monitors around before but never heard a change like this.

And one does not have to get over technical about things like measuring how much a speaker cabinet or surface vibrates. A simple test with some loud low notes will quickly reveal if you have any vibrating surfaces going on. Back to the old ears and just listening (and feeling) for the differences instead of measuring.

And to think you were doing all that serious listening just last week. :-)


I can assure you that my light weight tubular steel stands do not buzz... I am just also doubting that they move... and since I can not hear nor see any buzz or movement I am suggesting we measure it with something suitable.



Jeff, moving your speakers away from any surface makes huge difference in both perceived amplitude and frequency balance... so it's easy to figure out that if you just now got your speakers off your desk or floor or shelf or wall that you just experienced a huge difference in both factors.

It's a big jump to conclude that the concrete made the difference.

Do you ever break out a RTA or do you just rely on the golden ears?

best regards,
mike

"heyday of AB testing"

:-)

I keep advocating for ABX testing... been down the AB testing road... I figured out I was crazy or at least unpredictable.

My interest in Buddhist philosophy undermines any confidence I might have in a AB test.

best regards,
mike

Mike I would be keen to hear the results of you doing some loud low freq sine wave tests in your setup. Feel the monitor itself, feel the bottom of the stand where the monitor is resting, feel the stand itself, feel the floor area near the base of the stand etc.  Feel other surfaces and table tops etc...

If you get no vibrations at all then I agree that lighter stands can do the job. But on the other hand if you feel anything anywhere (because I don't) then the heavy stands are the go.

Time to stop the discussion and go away and do some tests and come back with some results.

Those Jensen transformers are probaly all right in certain situations but not over a whole mix in the case of the DAKING mic pres though, unless it was other factors, and that is hard to tell. But remember, all transformers colour the sound.  They are not really neutral or transparent. They add a retro vibe to any signal passing through them. Do we always need that?

The heavier something is the less vibration it will transmit.  The more the mass, the more dampening occurrs. At my manufacturing company we buy very expensive machines with a lot of working units on them.  Vibrations from one working unit can affect the peformance of another working unit.  They have different priced models you can buy and the more expensive the machine the heavier it is - to dampen out the vibrations.

Ok, I'm a pygmy among giants, and I'm walking into a mine field, but the "heavier something is the less vibration it will transmit" struck me as flat out too simplistic.

Anyway, my question is, without having tried it, isn't putting those (lightweight) foam pads under the monitors adequate to prevent vibrations passing from the monitor cabinet to supporting structure(s)?

guitartrek


The heavier something is the less vibration it will transmit.  The more the mass, the more dampening occurrs. At my manufacturing company we buy very expensive machines with a lot of working units on them.  Vibrations from one working unit can affect the peformance of another working unit.  They have different priced models you can buy and the more expensive the machine the heavier it is - to dampen out the vibrations.

Nah mate, that's not correct. Dampeners (such as fluid dampeners in your car) cause dampening. It's a whole different story. You got simply the natural frequency of a system, which is made up of the mass and stiffness of the system, and then you have the DAMPED natural frequency, which is the frequency that it actually resonates at. You have:

undamped - the object will resonate at its natural frequency FOREVER - only theoretical, not possible due to friction
underdamped - such as an old car where the dampeners are gone. It goes over a bump and then keeps bouncing for ages
critically damped - ideal for a car or speaker cone. It WILL resonate, however will return to a stationary position as fast as possible. ie the car will stop moving after that bump as fast as is possible for the mass of the car and with no other external forces slowing it down. You want your speaker cone to stop vibrating ASAP after your kick pedal
overdamped - it does NOT oscillate. But because there is so much gunk in the system, it very slowly returns back to its starting point.

These are all controlled by dampening in the system - which is basically friction. In the first case, there is ZERO friction, second case there is a little bit, third case is often ideal with a perfect balance of friction and last case there is a lot of friction. Please note that although all 4 cases have the same natural frequency, the DAMPED frequency (which it actuall resonates) will be different for the last three - but not by very much.



The reason your company buys heavier systems is for the exact reason heavy speaker stands work well - to lower the natural frequency of the stand/frame so that it is considerably lower than the oscillating sources which are forcing it. Further damping will help to reduce vibrations as well. You may also achieve the desired results with a light structure and a high natural frequency (which would normally be bad) but introduce high dampening devices into the system so that movement is ultimatelly very limited. But it's usually easier to just make it heavy.

jhughs while I had my monitors on the same table as the gear, I did try all sorts of things there including MoPads etc. Maybe the recoil pads might be better. But  things were still vibrating when they should have not. (only with the MoPads, have not tried the Recoils) I don't want the speakers that close anyway, I prefer them a little back. For me nothing compares to the speakers on the stands now. I think the Recoil stabilisers are meant to be better but they are costly.

See here:

http://www.frontendaudio....c-RX9-p/9999-05575.htm

Ordinary foam does not work well at all. It virtually does nothing.

I like what Dave is saying too. I have noticed that kick drums sound better and do not ring on so much when the signal stops. Tighter. Steely Dan  is a good test for kick drums. (Only the latest CD's as well not so much the vinyl. The last two albums sound amazing) Great all round speaker testing music too. Steely Dan  has got everything. Fantastic mixes, vocals, all instruments etc...The CD releases are much snappier than any previous vinyl releases. Although the vinyl sounds great too mostly. The ability for the cone to stop sooner has been effected by the stands as well no doubt. The stands have not suddenly done something to the cone or coil, it would have been stopping correctly all the time. It is the cabinet that keeps going and it is the cabinet resonances that have changed now.

You can quote theories all you want but the proof of the pudding is in the eating. I am hearing three things mainly. Smoother bass, (less coloured for sure) lower in level or probably at the right level now and tightness or snap. I was just listening to some solo piano music and it too also sounded better and more natural.