Jeff Evans
Without a doubt I would have far greater listening and aural skills than most of the forum members here. Not all but many I am sure. I don't have any doubts about my abilities in that area. I have done more listening than most people. 

Amazing...

I've been reading this thread but have been keeping my nose out of it.  I've been thinking that Mike has been a little harsh on you throughout the thread.  thinking that there must be more to the exchange between you two than what is presented here because I couldn't find where you were being overly "superior."
 
Until now.
 

Jeff Evans

Without a doubt I would have far greater listening and aural skills than most of the forum members here. Not all but many I am sure. I don't have any doubts about my abilities in that area. I have done more listening than most people. 

with that statement I am sure that Mike was not being harsh on you.  apparently you deserve the titles of arrogance and superiority.
 
I will now regard any further communication from you as it is deserved, in my opinion.  good day to you sir. 

Mike the idea about my original speaker stand idea has some merit.  And the fact that I had braced the centre of the table well suggests it may have been vibrating not in the centre but perhaps from the centre out to the ends etc. But I did do some tests and found that structure to be pretty solid. There did not appear to be any serious vibrating surfaces.

Also don't forget I also got the speakers off that table and onto my main table as well for a period and got a very similar sound. And this would be a similar setup to perhaps what many of you are doing here as well. And I tried everything to decouple them with not a lot success.

But the heavy stand concept has had the largest overall change. And I stand by it for sure. (no pun intended!) And if you read one of my previous posts you will see even a bigger improvement to moving monitors around the room which I have also done.

I thought the comment about my superior listening abilities would get a reaction.  But I could ask the same thing of you say dlogan.. you say...Yeah, wow...  how would you know??? And I could say for all anyone knows that statement could be true as well.  eg How do you what my skills are? But despite having listening skills I don't actually get bogged down in that all. I am very much into the music and that is what I listen to first and foremost. But at times when you do something like this or compare two very similar files as in the Summing thread you do have to reach for those skills and listen right past the music and into the sound. Which is not easy at times.

I agree its good not to be ego oriented but what I have found about life is sometimes you do. Especially when you apply for a great well paid job and you have to tell them why you are best person for the job. Seems a lot of people around here are trying to display their superior knowledge and yet trying to be humble about it at the same time and appear oh so non egotistical. But when the time really needs it, can you step up and use you ego?

My intentions are always good here. I find the forums an amazing place and I have learned as much as I have given to the forums. I have picked up great techniques, links and knowledge. I have also have given a lot of information away too. In fact I have copied and pasted every informative technical post I have done and it is now over 130 pages in a word doc.

The problem here is that some people don't actually read what you are writing about. They are looking deeper into the meaning and the ego and the emotion (and reacting to it) instead of what is being said and as we all know the problem with electronic communications  like emails and posting etc is that intent sometimes gets confused or misplaced etc..

The facts are that after putting my speakers on two heavy concrete stands I am experiencing a very different sound.  A sound that as Dave correctly points out too might be getting better or (not) perhaps it is changed. But I do like the change and it seems to me to be more indicative of how an accurate monitor should sound. I have sat in front of $70,000 monitors in the ultimate studios and listened to my reference CD and remembered how the bass sounded then. What I am hearing now in the low end is very close to that. I do have a frame of reference.

Mike you say you are open minded but on the issue of this thread it looks to me as though you are a bit close minded. You are doing everything to disprove the notion of putting speakers on heavy concrete stands results in a fairly serious change in the sound. But I can also see what you are getting at and that is why? Is it the heavy stands or something else? The facts are that I did put my speakers on some heavy stands and the sound has changed seriously. The only thing now is whether the sand filled stands or even lightweight stands would give a similar result. If I can get my hands onto some of these I will be happy to do some tests and report the results. I am not saying however that the other options to the heavy stands would not work. I have never said that. Remember the good thing about the concrete stand concept is that is cheaper than the alternatives. (just bloody heavy!)

I am starting to like Mattplaysguitar idea a lot. And that is because the stands are just so heavy they are simply not transmitting a thing from the monitor to the floor. (Same principal as building studios to stop sound from transmitting through the wall) I think we have to realise that all three methods including speakers on the Recoil pads or Mopads all use a different methods to de couple the speaker. But something got me thinking about the Recoil or Mo Pad concept. Would that not mean that the (speaker) cabinet might be moving more in those cases. But with the heavy stands the cabinet does NOT move. Would you still get that snappier sound or tighter bass from those other decoupling methods, not sure.

My intentions are always good here.

I believe that to be true.

I also know that Mike is a great and patient facilitator and I've been watching while you've been gently nudged along the way to a wider truth but my observation is that you somehow seem to be blinded by what you know rather than being open to what you don't.

Jeff I've gleaned a lot of good stuff from your contributions previously, stuff that has worked well for me, and Mike has been probably the single most helpful person I've had the benefit of access to.

The difference with Mike is he just tends to leave it out there for anyone to find hence they gain in experience while seemingly learning for themselves, whereas with yourself frankly I feel sometimes I'm being preached at and have to consciously look beyond that to find any pearls, and it is bang on what you are saying there about none of us knowing each others strengths fully, I don't know the full extent of your experience, I just try not to be patronizing but you do have way that seems like talking down sometimes, maybe I do to but I do at least try not to.

But me having preference for certain delivery styles isn't the point, this thread has largely seen attempts to be steered back to re-usable content (factual knowledge) and nobody contested your notion that you are preferring the sound of your speakers since putting them on heavy plinths, but the reasons why are still completely open for debate as nobody knows why with complete certainty.  And yet you continue to maintain it is because of the concrete plinths in isolation of any other factor, including where they were before, as far as I can tell.

As for golden ears, sure you and I could probably both experience the difference that you are speaking of but perhaps it's one you like but I may not, or perhaps more importantly than 'prefer' would cause me to react differently to different frequencies and mix/master accordingly, IOW I may be overcompensating sub 100hz and you'd be going the other way.  Doesn't mean there is something wrong with my hearing or yours is 'better' than mine if I can still hear a difference.  And it certainly doesn't necessarily mean its because the plinths are concrete.

The other thing IIRC I've been listening since I drew first breath just like everyone else (some would say even before that), the one with the most listening experience can only be confirmed as the oldest among us.  So you may have me there.

Thanks Jonbouy for your post, it was very good. And I am definately open minded especially about things like how one comes across. I would rather people get to the pearls as you say and not have to be sidetracked by being preached at. Preaching is often a by product of belief and passion. And any preaching I may do is miniscule and not even in the same league as perhaps some of the over zealous preachers that may pop up in other areas in our society. (not just religion here either) They are way more dangerous than me.

You can certainly learn a lot about yourself through others. And you have put it so well. I am always looking for better ways to educate especially as I am a teacher (as well as a working producer) and I have to look at this aspect very carefully. The great thing about your post is how you voiced your opinion. Tactfully I would say and informative. Others should take note and not be in such a hurry to shoot people down. I think a great thing to do is if you have to criticise somebody for doing something, suggest in a positive manner a better alternative rather than being negative and attacking that person directly. Something many teachers (and some forum posters) should get a hold of.

I have worked in the industry. My first extensive listening experiences started with a group of Hi Fi enthusiasts back in the 70's. And it continued on for quite a long time before I ever got into sound engineering. I have been playing drums since 1970 as well in practically every live situation you could come across.  And in a lot of that live playing the balance and the nature of the music was very acoustic eg piano , bass and drums and horn eg in a very natural and acoustic situation. So I have always had a great live frame of reference too. When you are next to a great double bass player and piano player for decades you sort of get the message as to how it sounds. And I have been playing Sonor Rosewood drums with very nice Paste and K Zildjian cymbals for 40 years too so I think I have got a handle on how drums sound. And when I talk about transients in music I think I am in a good position to judge and comment.

I started recording and producing ensembles and many things after that. So I also have had the opportunity to walk around inside orchestras and live ensembles and really hear how they sounded. (that is when I learned about mic techniques the hard way)

Then it was into lots of sound engineering myself and listening to the various monitors and setups I have had inside my own studio. But this also led me into many other studios where a lot of tracking and mixing was being done etc. Also as I composed a lot of music for TV and docos etc I was always involved in the post audio mixdown and these places also often had very accurate monitors and acoustics etc..   I have always had a great reference CD which allowed me to check out many many monitors and many of them way above anything I could afford at the time either and in perfect conditions so yes I have heard a lot of other accurate monitors and as I said above I have a frame of reference.

By the time I had got into the situation of listening to a very expensive studio monitor I was well versed with the skills needed to know what to listen for. I think one of the best things I ever did was lock myself away for years with a serious Hi Fi setup (finest turntable known to man, fact, finest RIAA preamp, fact, class A valve amp that I built myself and a range of speakers. English LEAK and QUAD electrostatics crossed over to a Janis sub, it really did not get better than that!) and listened to nearly everything that had been recorded before. (I still do it for current trends and sounds) It is almost better than doing a sound engineering course. Because when I mix, I use that stuff I heard then (and now) as a frame of reference.  I do know that many of my current sound engineering students do not do any or enough listening and that is a worry! It is harder to mix without all that listening experience. How do you know what something is meant to sound like?

And the great thing is that now active monitors are just so good and much more easily affordable compared to the stuff I had to buy back then. It used to cost an arm and a leg. And if you put modern day active monitors onto some heavy speaker stands they sound even better.

The points under A and B are not mutually exclusive. Perhaps the order they were presented in was not ideal. After reading the points in B would you not think that perhaps the statement in A might not sound so silly.

Beagle what you are asking could be difficult to do. Some very confident people who really believe in themselves might think the statement in A is fine. And perhaps the statements in B as well. Have you not ever come across people who are very confident about what they know and what they can do. They are not necessarily egotistical. It makes me wonder though what sort of person takes great offence to my listening skills abilities.  As I said in a previous post, if you find it offensive you need to look inwardly at yourself and question why that is the case.

But your right, in a job interview I would not be saying the statements in A. I would be however talking about the points in B.

But I think we should get the thread back onto topic. People have been challenging my reasons for the improvements I am hearing. That is the purpose of the thread. So after all the ego stuff I am very qualified to hear the differences and perhaps to even make some suggestions as to why. People in other threads have made much more ridiculous unfounded statements as well but others don't seem to be bothered with them.

I will concede though that until some experiments involving comparing heavy concrete stands to sand filled or lightweight stands are done, we will not really know if the heavy stands are the reason. There are some facts buried in here though. One, is that before various surfaces were vibrating and now they are not. I have suggested that people do some low freq vibration tests to see what turns up but of course no one has done that.

And as I have been saying all along this does not apply to sub situations but rather full range speaker applications. eg If Mike has a sub and goes out and gets a pair of heavy stands he may not hear anything different at all.

And Mike FYI I was not listening to the summing thread tests on the stands and thought I would revisit that and see how they sounded. Difference was a tiny bit more obvious. The bass end was a little different between the two now. There may have been some colouring on both tracks before. The analog track sounds a little fatter and the bass maybe a touch louder. (transformers maybe?)The digital track has got the bass sounding just right. Almost like its too quiet but loud and clear at the same time. The bass level is well set in this mix.

Anyway its been good and I wish you all a very merry Christmas too.

And if you put modern day active monitors onto some heavy speaker stands they sound even better.

Jeff

Now that WAS funny...

Beagle what you are asking could be difficult to do. Some very confident people who really believe in themselves might think the statement in A is fine. And perhaps the statements in B as well. Have you not ever come across people who are very confident about what they know and what they can do. They are not necessarily egotistical. It makes me wonder though what sort of person takes great offence to my listening skills abilities.  As I said in a previous post, if you find it offensive you need to look inwardly at yourself and question why that is the case.

Jeff - it is not difficult to do, at least not for most people who are capapble of having social relationships.  It's a simple matter of social skills to be able to prevent yourself from writing things which are offensive to others.  if you can't do that then any knowledge you think you are imparting to others is wasted anyway because no one will listen to you regardless of how experienced or talented you are.  If you offend everyone you talk to then people will stop reading (or listening) to you.

and the suggestion that it's my (our) fault that we find your statements offensive is ridiculous.  I could call you a really bad name and that doesn't mean it's your fault that I called you a bad name.  come on, Jeff, it's really just the simplest of social skills.  if you don't have even the simplest of social skills then I suggest you hire a counselor of psychologist to help you work through that lacking aspect of your life.

dlogan


Reece and Jon - when I was younger, I listened to more CDs and attended more concerts while on acid than the rest of the forum combined. So I hear things on a different level. I can acoustically treat a room and calculate the correct placement for speaker stands simply by watching the movement of the dancing rainbow bears while the music is playing. Others may have better ears than me, but I can see the dancing bears better than anyone.

My only question is... how much does that matter after uploading the songs onto MySpace's MP3 encoder?? 

 
Maybe so, but I was more stoned than anyone else on the forum.  so there.  put that in your pipe and smoke it.  err...my pipe and smoke it...err...I don't do that any more! 

i guess what i'm trying to say is, it really isn't all that important.

whether or not Dancing with the Stars is rigged.

I dunno if I'd go that far but it certainly leans in favour of those that are used to working on a suspended floor.

There's some discussion as to whether these floors complement true dancing or whether a more substantial static substrate would emphasize more 'natural' movement.

Thoughts?

Johannes H


 

if you don't have even the simplest of social skills then I suggest you hire a counselor of psychologist to help you work through that lacking aspect of your life. 

 
Beagle, allthough I can understand your critisism, I think this is too much. You don`t really know him.
 
My opinion of course.
 
Best, JH

Johannes,
thank you for your input. 
 
my statement was based directly on his posts in this thread and I stand by them regardless.  I only said that he should seek help to learn social skills if he cannot keep from bragging on himself without offending everyone else.  He is the one who said doing that would "be difficult."  so if he can't keep from offending others with his posts then it is my opinion that he needs to learn a new skill in order to help himself before he can offer help to others.
 
however, I am sorry you feel that way and I'm sorry if I have offended you by saying "too much" in your opinion.

dlogan


If I stick my head under my mixing desk the sound down there is crazy, and I know some of that is leaking into my hearing when I mix.

That's not necessarily the case. The sound will be horrible in many places around the room, due to room modes. Since the area under the desk is likely to be close to the wall and close to a wall/floor corner, it's probably generally going to sound horrible under there. Ultimately, for mixing purposes, all that matters is what it sounds like at the mixing position, and that's often the only place that you can get sounding good in a smallish, rectilinear room.
 
Though, vibrations that you can feel through contact with the desk will affect your perception of low end. So if you touch the desk and can feel it vibrating, that might be a problem. Even my fairly cheap one doesn't  have too much problem with this. It's made of dense particle board and the speakers are on a second tier that only contacts the main desk level via four vertical connections.
 
And of course I don't mix at really loud volumes, as should be the case for everyone, which makes it less important. You should crank it up once in a while to see how it's sounding louder. But mostly you shouldn't be spending hours sitting there at 90dB SPL anyway. At the more reasonable levels that are appropriate for mixing in a small room with near fields, the problem is probably a lot smaller to begin with.
 

Johannes H


Nice to hear from you Beagle. My impression of you is that you`re good and thoughtful person, but I still think we should be careful to beg people to seek help based on conversations on an internet forum.
Let`s agree to disagree.

BTW, I have in principle the same type of speaker stands as you batsbrew.

Best, JH

no problem, JH.  and you are correct, we shouldn't take what we read from someone else in an internet forum without careful thought.