Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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The science of sample rates
Great article on The Science Of Sample Rates that discusses the pro's and con's of high sample rates. Its long but well worth the read.
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garrigus
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Re: The science of sample rates
2014/01/15 09:13:56
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Guitarmech111
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Re: The science of sample rates
2014/01/15 09:14:42
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Good Article Noel, thx for the link. Excellent info! I LOVE the bottom line at the end. :)
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bitflipper
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Re: The science of sample rates
2014/01/15 09:50:09
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Isn't that the same article that credits Harold Nyquist for "providing the mathematical proof" for what was to become the "Nyquist Theorem"? I may sound like a nit-picker, but that's just wrong. Claude Shannon was one of the greatest minds of the 20th century and deserves credit for not only providing the proof that elevated Nyquist's concept to the status of "theorem" but also for proposing the idea of using binary numbers as the basis for electronic computing. It's like saying Roger Waters was the genius behind Pink Floyd.
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SilentMind
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Re: The science of sample rates
2014/01/15 13:22:41
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bitflipper It's like saying Roger Waters was the genius behind Pink Floyd.
Hehehe, that caught me by surprise and now I've a coffee stain on me trousers. Thanks bitflipper ;) Interesting article, cheers for the heads up.
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BlixYZ
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Re: The science of sample rates
2014/01/15 13:28:37
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ampfixer
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Re: The science of sample rates
2014/01/15 15:13:12
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☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2014/01/15 16:12:00
I guess the Cliff notes for that article would read something like "44.1 or 48k is just fine for most things".
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Leadfoot
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Re: The science of sample rates
2014/01/15 15:21:19
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☄ Helpfulby cconde 2014/01/16 05:27:04
ampfixer I guess the Cliff notes for that article would read something like "44.1 or 48k is just fine for most things".
Thanks for summarizing. Now I don't have to read it.
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John T
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Re: The science of sample rates
2014/01/15 15:21:45
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bitflipper Isn't that the same article that credits Harold Nyquist for "providing the mathematical proof" for what was to become the "Nyquist Theorem"? I may sound like a nit-picker, but that's just wrong. Claude Shannon was one of the greatest minds of the 20th century and deserves credit for not only providing the proof that elevated Nyquist's concept to the status of "theorem" but also for proposing the idea of using binary numbers as the basis for electronic computing. It's like saying Roger Waters was the genius behind Pink Floyd.
Another place where his history is off, fact fans, is in his thinking that the videophone dates from the sixties. In fact, AT&T had a fully working system in 1927, but never went commercial with it. There was a commercial public videophone system in Germany immediately before the second world war though. That stuff aside, this is a good article.
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gswitz
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Re: The science of sample rates
2014/01/15 19:17:56
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He didn't talk about capturing the recordings and the fact that most of the data about fidelity depends on using every available bit. If you are only using 6 of your 24 bits b/c you have your levels set dangerously low, then you might get a recording like an analog cassette tape at 44.1. Now I've loved my analog cassette tapes but... just saying. I know you don't fix this by doubling the sample rate, btw. :-)
post edited by gswitz - 2014/01/15 19:35:40
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drewfx1
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Re: The science of sample rates
2014/01/15 21:14:13
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gswitz He didn't talk about capturing the recordings and the fact that most of the data about fidelity depends on using every available bit. If you are only using 6 of your 24 bits b/c you have your levels set dangerously low, then you might get a recording like an analog cassette tape at 44.1. Now I've loved my analog cassette tapes but... just saying.
Once your quantization error is sufficiently below the other noise in your environment and you have plenty of headroom, you don't gain anything by adding more bits. And 24 bits already leaves lots of room for error here, so it is likely that the other noise (both acoustic and electronic) is a much bigger problem. The rule for 24 bit converters is "leave plenty of headroom and then worry about acoustic and analog circuit noise, not the converters". I know you don't fix this by doubling the sample rate, btw. :-)
Actually you can trade bit depth for sample rate by using noise shaping.
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mettelus
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Re: The science of sample rates
2014/01/15 23:39:54
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This is probably a good place to ask this question. I did my first-ever sampling last weekend, and ended up using Audition to do the task. I recorded them 44.1KHz mono (drums), but Audition defaulted to a 32-bit float on saves so I just used that. Is that 32-bit buying anything at all, or just wasting space on me?
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AndyDavis
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Re: The science of sample rates
2014/01/16 00:20:52
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bitflipper Claude Shannon was one of the greatest minds of the 20th century and deserves credit for not only providing the proof that elevated Nyquist's concept to the status of "theorem" but also for proposing the idea of using binary numbers as the basis for electronic computing.
But Shannon gets an epic Wikipedia entry, so it all balances out. (Apparently, he created a motorized pogo stick and a flame throwing trumpet.)
Don't ask the question if you cannot live with the answer.
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John
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Re: The science of sample rates
2014/01/16 00:41:33
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"This is probably a good place to ask this question. I did my first-ever sampling last weekend, and ended up using Audition to do the task. I recorded them 44.1KHz mono (drums), but Audition defaulted to a 32-bit float on saves so I just used that. Is that 32-bit buying anything at all, or just wasting space on me?" For recording yes its wasting space. Keep in mind that your converters are incapable of recording anything above 24 bits. So the file that was created is 24 bits plus a lot of padding. This adds nothing useful to the recording at all. Now for processing it a very different story. However, I am of the opinion that the file on disk doesn't need to be greater than 24 bits even after processing. I am sure I am alone in this view.
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mettelus
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Re: The science of sample rates
2014/01/16 00:54:38
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Thanks John. I assumed as much but wanted to ask.
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Cactus Music
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Re: The science of sample rates
2014/01/16 00:58:59
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I'm now happy that my stupid Tascam interface refuses anything beyond 44.1. All is good. But that said I always thought my DAT recorder sounded better at 48.
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slartabartfast
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Re: The science of sample rates
2014/01/16 04:13:52
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Oh Lord. Another vain attempt to throw mathematical logic at an argument where opinion is the controlling factor. I am waiting for the golden ears to chime in with how much crisper/sharper/fuller/more realistic sampling at 6x Nyquist frequency makes their music. 3... 2... 1...
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Skyline_UK
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Re: The science of sample rates
2014/01/16 04:37:22
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Cactus Music I'm now happy that my stupid Tascam interface refuses anything beyond 44.1. All is good. But that said I always thought my DAT recorder sounded better at 48.
So did mine....
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rontarrant
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Re: The science of sample rates
2014/01/16 06:01:14
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ampfixer I guess the Cliff notes for that article would read something like "44.1 or 48k is just fine for most things".
Ah! That's what I was looking for.
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Goddard
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Re: The science of sample rates
2014/01/16 08:02:09
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Sigh... wotta buncha hooey. Facetious scientist indeed. Surprise! ADCs actually sample at frequencies in the MHz even if they only output PCM streams at 44.1/48kHz. And DACs oversample 44.1kHz audio streams (in MHz) too! That's not ultrasonic, it's radio frequency (and relates to why the use of a CD player is prohibited at times on airliners). Not to worry though, decimation and lowpass (and often highpass) filtering fortunately keeps the out-of-band nasties from getting through (at least, its supposed to if things are designed and working properly). Another surprise: the cheapo onboard 'high definition audio" codec chip inside the typical PC/Mac can handle 192kHz digital audio (such as one might find as a primary audio stream on a Bluray disc) just fine (by design). Here ya go Noel, he's written all about bit-depth too: http://www.sonicscoop.com/2013/08/29/why-almost-everything-you-thought-you-knew-about-bit-depth-is-probably-wrong/
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dcumpian
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Re: The science of sample rates
2014/01/16 08:13:08
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John "This is probably a good place to ask this question. I did my first-ever sampling last weekend, and ended up using Audition to do the task. I recorded them 44.1KHz mono (drums), but Audition defaulted to a 32-bit float on saves so I just used that. Is that 32-bit buying anything at all, or just wasting space on me?" For recording yes its wasting space. Keep in mind that your converters are incapable of recording anything above 24 bits. So the file that was created is 24 bits plus a lot of padding. This adds nothing useful to the recording at all. Now for processing it a very different story. However, I am of the opinion that the file on disk doesn't need to be greater than 24 bits even after processing. I am sure I am alone in this view.
You are not alone... Regards, Dan
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John
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Re: The science of sample rates
2014/01/16 08:22:32
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Goddard; I agree that he has a style that is not paper quality. I also have a problem with people talking about science in the way he does. I know he is addressing the public. However, I have been saying much the same thing for many years now. I did as you suggest and read the bit depth article and again I am in total agreement. What he says is the way I understand both sample rate and bit depth. I shall put it to you to clearly state where and what he is saying is wrong. Please give citations and where your objections are coming from.
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mmorgan
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Re: The science of sample rates
2014/01/16 09:51:26
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John ...I am sure I am alone in this view.
Nope. We're up to at least three now. Regards,
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John
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dmbaer
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Re: The science of sample rates
2014/01/16 13:56:05
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bitflipper It's like saying Roger Waters was the genius behind Pink Floyd.
Careful, Bit. You know we're not supposed to discuss religion here.
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stevec
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Re: The science of sample rates
2014/01/16 14:23:17
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dmbaer
bitflipper It's like saying Roger Waters was the genius behind Pink Floyd.
Careful, Bit. You know we're not supposed to discuss religion here.
Wow... no bassist/genius jokes?
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John T
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Re: The science of sample rates
2014/01/16 14:29:14
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Goddard Sigh... wotta buncha hooey. Facetious scientist indeed. Surprise! ADCs actually sample at frequencies in the MHz even if they only output PCM streams at 44.1/48kHz. And DACs oversample 44.1kHz audio streams (in MHz) too! That's not ultrasonic, it's radio frequency (and relates to why the use of a CD player is prohibited at times on airliners). Not to worry though, decimation and lowpass (and often highpass) filtering fortunately keeps the out-of-band nasties from getting through (at least, its supposed to if things are designed and working properly). Another surprise: the cheapo onboard 'high definition audio" codec chip inside the typical PC/Mac can handle 192kHz digital audio (such as one might find as a primary audio stream on a Bluray disc) just fine (by design).
None of that seems to address anything in the article. I'm not sure what point you're making here.
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mettelus
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Re: The science of sample rates
2014/01/16 17:26:36
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John
mmorgan
John ...I am sure I am alone in this view.
Nope. We're up to at least three now. 
Sometimes you all make my day. That somehow was very funny. 
I liked the comment from the OP on the law of diminishing returns, and the chuckle I get with digital audio is that if it hasn't already reached some sort of level of "too good" then things that inject "noise" (tape emulators, console emulators, etc.) wouldn't be "needed."
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Sanderxpander
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Re: The science of sample rates
2014/01/16 18:41:15
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Count me in on the 24 bit is enough crowd.
Also, whether a DAT recorder at 48KHz sounds better than your current card at 44.1KHz could be depending on a lot of things besides the 7KHz difference. Psychoacoustics not being the least of them, and certainly also clock stability, to name a few.
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gswitz
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Re: The science of sample rates
2014/01/16 18:56:36
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StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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