Well, I'm just going to have to reflect these sentiments right back at you two.  I deeply appreciate them and your company [Edit: company in the personal sense, not the commercial one] .
 
It's nice that things have settled down and it's fun to watch the early-birds put the new Sonar through its paces.
 
 

Sweet Tooth
 
 
And the Belittling sets in, True Colors which is surprising for a man of your stature.

 
Well I said I wasn't going to come back, but I didn't realize you were going to jettison your argument and start another one that's not even relevant.
 
And yes, I may have stature, but I'm a human being and I don't like having my friends and associates called liars when they have done anything but, as demonstrated even by texts you've cited. And I don't like the way you've treated other people in this company, and I don't like your violations of the TOS. I don't believe in fighting, but I believe in it if someone is attacking innocent bystanders.
 
You don't respond to logic, you don't respond to patience, and you don't respond to facts presented by others and even yourself. So I thought I'd try belittlement, which at least worked strategically because it made you reach for something that undermined your arguments further, just in case anyone thought we were dealing with someone who didn't have his mind made up and came here to push an agenda, not learn the reality of a situation. 
 

As stated before, there is no single form to the subscription model. Here, I'll try to spin the same article my way...
 
"It is typically defined as an annual or multi-year software license that combines the right-to-use the software with the rights to obtain software updates and service."
 
Sounds like what Cake is offering.

 
Well you did try, once more you didn't succeed because yes, I read the article. Sorry, but it's all about what happens during the time a customer is using the software. It does NOT mention the term of the agreement, what happens after the terms expires, or how it expires. So it has nothing to do with what you've been talking about up to this point.
 
You make a statement, are proven wrong, and then without acknowledging that you were either incorrect or misinformed (even if you're the one who demolished the merits of your own statement), try to move on to another statement which then has to be proven wrong on its own merits. I've just done that again. You're welcome.
 

I'd like to have a civil debate maybe even philosophical. IMO Cake is telling a half truth which in effect is a lie, for reasons that are beyond me. I'm sitting here waiting to toss money at them, I mean heck its only $10 a month.

 
And that is why you will never have a civil debate. You have already made up your mind, and continue on an ever-more desperate attempt to try and justify that opinion, even if it flies in the face of citations that you yourself make. It is not possible to reason someone out of a position they did not use reason to attain. You are calling Cakewalk liars, yet have produced no evidence whatsoever that anything they've said is not true. What you have done is produce evidence that proves they're not liars. Thank you for that, and good night. 

I own X3 Producer. I decided to buy Platinum which means I get 12 month membership. Next year when my membership runs out, I should be have a strong idea if the monthly plan has value to me, or I wait until something is released that I think I gotta have (missing out on the additional content in between). The other option would have been the monthly plan which would I could stop at anytime as I read. That would have let me spend about $20 as a test. I don't understand a lot of the fuss. It seems to me Cakewalk is providing to options to choose. If Cakewalk doesn't provide enough content to make the mothly customers happy then they will lose customers. I kind of like them gambling that they can proved enough quality to keep their model working. I am not a big Customer Support guy so I personally don't factor that into the equation but that is certainly a consideration foe some. 

Anderton
 

 
Not even sure how to respond to all that, you must have me confused with somebody else or you've gone insane and lost your mind. LOL I am not this person you speak of so please do not reference Me as being this boogie man you have issue with.
 
Politicians have this way of looking into peoples eyes and telling (Convincing) them of one thing knowing thats its another, yet they do so in a way that they cannot be held to it as a Lie because it is not. There are many ways to describe an apple, but is there only one way? Its all about the perspective you want them to see and how you present it to them. I believe the end result product is in fact delivered not unlike a Subscription. It is not a Subscription according to how Cake presents it but a Membership delivering the same thing.
 
"Can I buy the new SONAR without membership?
No..."
 
You cannot get Sonar without a membership (Member's Only?). You cannot buy Sonar, instead you pay for an annual membership that grants you a perpetual license. It all seems like political wordplay to me, and if it walks like a duck...it must taste good...Eeeerhm.
 
 
Again...
 
"It is typically defined as an annual or multi-year software license that combines the right-to-use the software with the rights to obtain software updates and service."
 
When I purchase the Annual (Let me count with my fingers and toes, that's 12 months..hmm..yeah) Membership, I have the right to use the software with the rights to obtain software updates. Once in a while a new feature (Magazine?) will be available to obtain as part of the membership. To me that fits the definition. 
 

John
All of you that keep saying there is a subscription when you buy the new Sonar are wrong!

Guilty .... it's my term de jour - I buy so much software for the university that I work for that I've adopted this phrase.  I'll go to the chalk board and write 100 times "There is no subscription" 
-D

John
Well to be fair I do think the CW people did a poor job of explaining this. I believe they over thought it.  They were trying to be very detailed and accurate which was too confusing for some. 
 
 

 
Exactly my thought ....if they had explained it like the Waves wup it would have been easy to understand ...

Sorry if I got it all wrong...But I was reading about support payments in one post sicky...That is where I went south....
I have been sick of late and hospitalized for a bit, so forgive my continued muse with the Idea of paying for support when paying the full price of upgrading...Never got to read any replies of support upgrades in remote viewing by cw techs....So I am back to update my insights and data input on....please stand bye for technical assistance to remove the preinstalled pay for support data fee, that was wrongly instilled....I guess too much mead is hampering the idea?.

That's the actual screen grab from post payment.

Sweet Tooth
Interesting Terminology...Must be a typo. LOL'ing their way to the bank.
 
I know, I know...I just couldn't help myself.
 

 
 

Reading this thread has been nothing short of bizarre. But, I have to admit, in the overall scheme of arguments, this screenshot was priceless.
 

ON this webpage
http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/SONAR/Versions
Sonar Platinum is $149 for 12 months and it says membership renewal after 12 months is $199. What happens if you don't renew after the first 12 months? Does the software not work anymore? Will you lose tech support? I think in a years time all the updates will be done, so it would be ok to lapse, if the software still works. What if you have to renew for the 2nd 12 months and Sonar waits 2 years before a new version, if so, we'd end up spending a lot more for the current version. It still seems like there are many unanswered questions in this thread.
Membership Renewal after 12 Months$49 or $4.99/m$99 or $9.99/m$199 or $19.99/m

Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk]
Yes, because reading a forum thread marked subscription is way better than just reading the product pages on www.cakewalk.com/SONAR. And if it were just a payment plan, we would have left it at that but this is much more exciting (and good) for customers. And I'll just leave it at that :)

Yep. I will again belabor the point since people are having trouble: they are offering rental and rent to own. 
 
You can still buy, as you always could. However you can now rent if you like on a monthly basis. If you need Sonar just rent it. You can rent it as often or infrequently as you wish. Works like any other rental in that you only get to use it when you pay. 
 
However there's a third option to make renting a better deal: rent for 12 consecutive months and you own it. More expensive than buying up front but only slightly and it adds flexibility. Maybe you rent it just to try for a month, but then have a project to use it on so rent it for another. You are ready to stop but more comes up so you keep paying. Suddenly it is 10 months later and you've sunk a bunch of money in it. With a normal rental it is all you get, you got the time you paid for and that's that. Here though you can now just rent 2 more months and get to keep it forever. 
 
It is a very flexible payment setup that should work for most. 

People get hung up on the word "Subscription" and only see  that part of the Sonar Platinum Upgrade.
 
I, for one don't like that word.
 
The way I see it is that you pay $149.00 up front for the upgrades from X3 to Platinum, which would be normally the case with a usual upgrade. BUT, in the next 12 months you get all the upgrades and features free, which for me is a 2 year upgrade package for the same $149.00. No extra charge.
 
The "Subscription" as they call it seems to me as a payment installment plan. You choose to upgrade and you pay in 12 consecutive months. It does cost a little extra as do all payment installment plans, but if you are short on cash you could always go this way and get the same as everyone else for $30.00 more.
 
It's not the greatest way to get Platinum, but for some maybe the only way.
 
I will say I find the year after that too expensive just for 1 continueous year IMHO. We have already paid for the basic program the first year and will not have to buy that again. The upgrades from the first year we also paid for and best of all we get to keep them at the end of the year.
 
I hope that when the time comes, Cakewalk will change the prices of the upgrade to be more reasonable.
Anyway, that is how I see it.
 
Hope this helps.

Vastman
Cake should just change the name to monthly installment payment plan...

+10,000

John

Paul P
 
[we're getting pretty close
Because at no point with renting will the renter ever own anything.  That is not the case with the CW model. 

I Disagree  ( in part ).  Yes, ( if you pay either way ) -  you own your software (get it while it lasts).
 
But this is very much a subscription - and it expires in one year. you can pay my the month or up front, but you're still shut out of the loop for your Sonar Product after 1 year.  Unless you buy a new subscription.
You can buy magazines one at a time - or pay upfront too, but they stop after 1 year - if you paid upfront. ( or what ever term was agreed ). - And you can read all of the magazines you purchased as long as you want.
If this is not the case with the "NEW CAKEWALK"  ( lets follow Adobe in the quest for continuing cash flow - or screwing everyone - depending on if you own stock, or If the Sonar does not get purchased by someone from India), then perhaps someone could enlighten all of us with patches, fixes, etc  - like X3E  which came out a good year and a half later. Correct me if I'm wrong here but X3 released in the spring of 2013 ---  X3E patch in the fall of 2014 is well over a year,
So theoretically if I'm reading this correctly,   ( you will receive free updates for a year )  - then the X3E would have cost us $199.00 - except those of you who purchased a "subscription and paid upfront for a substantial discount sometime in the year before X3E.  
 
So, all of us who got an X3E patch would have had to pay $199.99 ( since it was over a year )  ---   yes or no?
If the answer is yes, than there is no incentive for continued development to support the product that people paid for. 
 
True,  it is a balancing act, but the fact remains that unless a major revision is made ( X3 to X4 )  anything else is just fixing what you paid for that wasn't ironed out in the first place and no one here should think that things can be ironed out before a release because no one knows how any program will act in the real world under all conditions.
 
So - who takes bets on the future of Sonar and your ability to own it?...
When Adobe Cloud came out you could still purchase CS6  ----   until they had enough people caught in the cloud that they stopped selling software ( and the rights ) all together.
Frankly , that whole "business model" has pissed a lot of people off - so I'll be curious to see where we all stand in a year or two.
 
I think a lot of people come to feel they pay hard earned money for something, they should expect the company to support it for more than 1 year ( excluding telephone support. etc ) - I'm talking about patches, etc.
 
I was really tempted to cross post this just so everyone heard my opinion.To each his own - you can tell yourself you are paying 200 bucks to upgrade ( and own your software) and know you won't get product updates after a year, you you can say I have a subscriptions and I'll get FREE updates for 1 year.  
 
Yes, either way - Thank God, at least we own the software ( for now - remember the initial Adobe Cloud Release!)  - but the whole idea of product support is in question over the long haul ( or a year, which ever comes first)
 
And what happens next year of so, or until they feel they have weened you away from the concept of buying a "version like X3 ) and just go with a "Sonar "Cloud" Membership" and free updates forever ( as long as you have your monthly subscription ).  Who would like to place their bets?
 
WG
 
 

Paul P  My disappointment is that with the end of version sales I could stay more or less current for about 75$ every year and a half.  That's now going up to 200$ / year.  That's out of the question especially when I need a decent keyboard/controller and some good notation software.  I'll be enjoying X3P for a while .
 

You can buy a year, skip a year, buy a year, skip a year.  That way you always stay up to date for 12 months, then use the same version for 12 months.  Once you pay again you instantly jump to the latest version again and the only thing you miss would be "additional content" that's not part of the core program.
 
It means your $200 per year is now $200 for 2 years.