vintagevibe

keith




Then all of those lost souls holding out hope that SV will be improved in the future can move on w/ their lives, and all of those continuously typing "if you need notation than use Finale or Sibelius" can save themselves some typing....

Those typing "if you need notation than use Finale or Sibelius" have absolutely no clue what notation in a DAW is for. I suspect you are equally clueless.  Why do clueless people who think buying loops makes them a composer enter in discussoins they don't understand?
 

Amen brother!
 
I guess they don't get the fact that those programs cost money. I would gladly pay cakewalk the money over those for better SV. It would be much EASIER to use just one program instead of going back and forth. Some people just need to get a clue.

Nice post, dubdisciple.   I feel very much the sam way.   SONAR's Staff View really isn't what it should (or could) be, period.  But then again, neither is the Matrix View.   It's the fact that it has both (and much much more) that makes it a winner IMHO.
 
So here's to improving what we've got!  A little something for everyone.

  I'm not sure I would go to that condescending extreme It depends on what one uses Sonar for. there are certainly working professionals that find Sonar perfect for what they do and would find this conversation odd. The third party plugin-market would not exist if there was a DAW that was the undisputed master for every usage. I think it's fair to say that companies that focus on one very narrow thing tend to get damn good at it versus companies that are multipurpose. A high end integrated stereo system by the likes of Bose is quite good and many would consist them a master of that particular niche even though someone could find examples of each component that some other company did better. Perhaps cakewalk's "mastery" is providing a multipurpose tool that can be built upon by those who need more in particular areas.

Guitarpima

vintagevibe

keith




Then all of those lost souls holding out hope that SV will be improved in the future can move on w/ their lives, and all of those continuously typing "if you need notation than use Finale or Sibelius" can save themselves some typing....

Those typing "if you need notation than use Finale or Sibelius" have absolutely no clue what notation in a DAW is for. I suspect you are equally clueless.  Why do clueless people who think buying loops makes them a composer enter in discussoins they don't understand?
 

Amen brother!
 
I guess they don't get the fact that those programs cost money. I would gladly pay cakewalk the money over those for better SV. It would be much EASIER to use just one program instead of going back and forth. Some people just need to get a clue.

Maybe you two should use the search button before jumping to conclusions and calling people "clueless". My opinion on the matter is very clear for all of those who choose not to jump to conclusions simply based on off-handed remarks.

I am new to Cakewalk products, and Sonar X1 Essentials was my product of choice. I have used Cubase SE previously. This may seem silly after reading some opinions regarding Staff View for music composition. My issue is the positioning of notation on the Staff. I have found that as long as I avoid entering dotted eighths and sixteenth et smaller values, the typesetting placement is fine. When using them, dotted eighths appear as a quarters and sixteenths appear as eighths and may snap to another position entirely. Yes, Grid Snap is set to 1/16. Visually, it seems X1 does not handle smaller note placement at all. I consider Piano Roll View cumbersome to work with. My point is that regardless of what people prefer, the music notation typesetting of the Staff View does not work as it should. If I printed sheet music that way, my career as a printer would be brief. As for Sonar X1, I have encountered some of the many problems mentioned. It's reliability is questionable, and Bus settings are occasionally found to be changed upon the next opening of a file. I am a hobbyist and I appreciate that cheaper versions will not be perfect. But, I like the program overall despite some hiccups. Additionally, my computer is a general purpose computer, not a machine dedicated to music production. I have been taking printed gospel songs and putting them to music. I do not have a very good grip on MIDI channel relationships, bus arrangements, etc. X1 has been a work in progress for me, but I'm making headway.

Elffin


I wonder if the rumours about digital performer on windows are true? That could be a viable option in regards to notation /video work..

I hope cake give us a nice surprise in furure versions of X1

It's true.  I'd be very interested in this since Cakewalk will never address the notation issues.

A lively thread indeed !
Seems the Staff view has generated some pretty strong opinions, and I see it as an interesting insight into the many different approaches Cakewalkers 
have in using the program.

 . . . I find the Staff View incredibly useful for editing midi, especially drums, but I also realize not everybody's musical experience relates to Staff notation.
Of course I do still pop into Piano Roll, or Event Viewer to do some quick edits, but I always come back to my Staff View for main editing.

The one thing I haven't seen mentioned here is that Cakewalk actually has done a few recent improvements in the Staff View, though it's questionable whether they are anything worthy of note, nevertheless they have tinkered with it a bit, so that tells me they haven't totally abondoned work on the Staff View.

MusicXML Exporting

MusicXML connects SONAR X1 Expanded to your favorite notation software. Create your song in SONAR X1 Expanded and then seamlessly transfer all MIDI information to a dedicated score editor.


. . . and this from Brandon Ryan (Cakewalk Staff)  Nov 2010 . . .

"The UI was redesigned.
The Chord, Expression, Hairpin, Lyric, and Pedal tools now display shading to indicate appropriate draw locations for each.
Some minor bug fixes in the context menus.
We do realize Staff View is important to a good portion of SONAR users and we do still hope to enhance the Staff View more substantially in the future under the framework of the new Skylight interface."


 . . . the best thing we can all do is keep all the Staff View threads alive, so Cakewalk notices that people want more improvements, but we also need to be specific about what can actually be improved about it. It's never going to be a notation software, it's clear that is not Cakewalk's intention. As a midi editor, there is so much that could be done.
I'm a songwriter so . . . top of my list would be to make the lyric and chord inputting more intuitive, by being able to put them in freely and then move them around easier, to match creative processes . . . what's top of your list ?

In the light of keeping staff threads alive, I'd like to add my two cents. Those that are tired of hearing about the staff view, and those suggesting to use Sibelius or Finale, you folks need to understand that it's not an all out fully featured score editor we are after. We would like a little more functionality, fix what is currently broken, and in my case, get rid of the universal snap to grid in favor of local snap to grid. The staff view in Sonar 4 functioned better than it does in X1, largely, from my experience, due to the now missing note length buttons in the staff window, and the snap issues. The kind of sorted out the triplets bug with X1d. Kind of. Introduced another triplet bug. :P With word that MOTU DP 8 coming to windows this spring or fall--whichever, I can't recall--and it's interesting film score related notation feature, Cubase's notation features, Pro Tools notation features, Sonar is falling further behind. I'm currently debating whether I should update to Producer or wait for DP 8. Those that suggest that because they don't use it, it should be discarded--well that argument is facetious. I don't use step sequencing or the matrix view. Should they be discarded? Of coarse not. Here's to hoping sonar at least corrects some of it's staff view issues and brings it up to par with even Sonar 8. :P Cheers

I too would love to not need to resort to a variety of programs to get a job done but it seems more and more that is no longer the case.

If I want to use notation as a means of data entry then I use Notion 3, save it to MIDI, then import to SONAR.

Having xml export is fine but if I've already got the MIDI in SONAR - well I've already got it. Of course if I need to print out the notation then back it goes to Notion 3.

The whole reason I went to Sonar years back was because of the staff view. The thing that is holding me back from jumping ship is that I know Sonar fairly well, am comfortable with it. I hope to see a staff view update eventually, if not in x1e, then in x2. Otherwise, I may have to jump ship. I guess it's liveable. I've kind of adapted to using their note duration selection, but it was far more efficient in the past. But I also really want to upgrade to pro, for the pro channel! Dammit! Decisions, decisions.

HeatherHaze


General question for Staff View users:  How do you work with the limitations of Staff View?  For example, how do you select note durations?  Are there any useful tips and tricks you've found to improve your workflow?
 
I've found a couple ways to deal with note durations.  One is pressing "T" to bring up the tool menu, which has a little sub-menu for selecting durations.  Fairly easy, and keeping a finger on "T" has the added benefit of having the tools (especially erase) handy. 

Another idea is to assign the different durations to various keystrokes (ALT-NUM-4 for quarter notes, ALT-NUM-8 for eighth notes, for example).  The downside of that is having to take the hand off the mouse.  They could also be assigned to MIDI notes on a controller, which could be handy.  
 
Any other creative ideas out there? 

just use your middle mouse wheel,simply press the middle mouse wheel down and it will bring up the tools menu,no need to sit there with your finger on the T key.

Kev999


I don't use Staff View very often and sometimes I even forget that it exists.  However, I do find it useful when I need to view several midi tracks together where there are a lot of unison notes or overlapping phrases.  PRV can look cluttered whereas SV displays the different instruments on separate staves.  I prefer editing in PRV though.

that's a really good point, I never thought to use it like that.

Part of the reason this thread and similar ones create such divisiveness is because posters like vintagevibe insist on using language that is condescending and downright insulting to other users. Every tool is not for everybody. The idea that it is less professional because it falls short on a particular feature that you especially value is absurd. If Cakewalk's lone demographic was composers who wanted to input a majority of their information via staff view, it would be a valid statement, but that is far beyond an unreasonable assumption. In fact, I don't think the professional composer was ever the primary demographic for any DAW. I think it is more than reasonable to bet that most professional use of Sonar is among studio owners...just like most DAWs. Pro Tools in actual professional use is far more likely to be used for recording, mixing and mastering music than it is for composition. The other thing silly about statements like "Sonar is aimed at the semi-pro or hobbyist" is that even if it were true, it is no more true than any other DAW or any other software in it's price range. Products do not get into the range where the primary purchaser is an actual professional until it is either priced in the stratosphere or so narrowly limited that hobbyists would not bother. The average photoshop user is not a professional. The average Final cut user is not a professional. The average Cubase owner is not a professional. The average guitar owner is not a professional. The software I mentioned is not "cheap", but it is certainly in the range of the hobbyist, especially considering the deep discounts given to students and educators. Programs geared exclusively towards pros tend to come with the pro only price tag. I guarantee there are not many(if any) semi-pro or hobbyists owners of Autodesk Flame because it is going to require a 50k+ investment.

backwoods


The "Staff" views on all DAWs are only suitable for "semi pro" "hobbyist". If you are dead serious you will fork out for Sibeliuis or Finale. 

You're confusing a notation program with a MIDI editor, two entirely different functions.   And the staff view on Cubase is far superior to Sonar, as a MIDI editor.  
 
JG
www.jerrygerber.com

The Score Editor in Cubase.