bsteven
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Tired of Staff View?: Just a suggestion
I've certainly grown tired of complaining about staff view, but since I do enjoy the other features of X1 and the new interface, I decided to try a relatively inexpensive supplement to X1 while the people at Roland get their stuff together: I purchased Guitar Pro 6 for about $50. It easily creates a pretty good printable score (at least compared to entry versions of Finale and Sibelius), and I can export the entire score to midi where I can use my VST instruments and record guitar and vocal parts on X1.
I agree, this is NOT something we should have to do, but since I don't plan to continue with Sonar "X anything" until the staff view works as it should, its a cheap solution for me. It's just a wonder that a relatively new $50 program could outperform a program that has been around for decades, but what can I say? I guess Roland has their priorities.
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vintagevibe
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Re:Tired of Staff View?: Just a suggestion
2011/04/23 21:18:41
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bsteven
I agree, this is NOT something we should have to do, but since I don't plan to continue with Sonar "X anything" until the staff view works as it should,
I'm still on 8.5 and this is the first time since the mid 90s that I have no plans to upgrade. I really think Cakewalk has repositioned Sonar for the semi pro and hobbyist and as such notation will never be addressed. I suppose it's making them more money but as a long term, loyal customer I feel seriously dissed by their new direction. They have left loyal customers behind by design. I keep learning the lesson that customer loyalty is foolish and I feel really stupid for the years I was a vocal champion of Cakewalk.
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backwoods
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Re:Tired of Staff View?: Just a suggestion
2011/04/23 21:22:57
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The "Staff" views on all DAWs are only suitable for "semi pro" "hobbyist". If you are dead serious you will fork out for Sibeliuis or Finale.
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snookerc
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Re:Tired of Staff View?: Just a suggestion
2011/04/23 21:32:37
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The "Staff" views on all DAWs are only suitable for "semi pro" "hobbyist". If you are dead serious you will fork out for Sibeliuis or Finale. +1
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daveny5
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Re:Tired of Staff View?: Just a suggestion
2011/04/23 22:14:19
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Sonar was never intended to be a notation program. Notation is there merely to assist in editing MIDI tracks. If you want notation, Finale Print Music is an inexpensive solution.
Dave Computer: Intel i7, ASROCK H170M, 16GB/5TB+, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Sonar Platinum, TASCAM US-16x08, Cakewalk UM-3G MIDI I/F Instruments: SL-880 Keyboard controller, Korg 05R/W, Korg N1R, KORG Wavestation EX Axes: Fender Stratocaster, Line6 Variax 300, Ovation Acoustic, Takamine Nylon Acoustic, Behringer GX212 amp, Shure SM-58 mic, Rode NT1 condenser mic. Outboard: Mackie 1402-VLZ mixer, TC Helicon VoiceLive 2, Digitech Vocalist WS EX, PODXTLive, various stompboxes and stuff. Controllers: Korg nanoKONTROL, Wacom Bamboo Touchpad
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bsteven
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Re:Tired of Staff View?: Just a suggestion
2011/04/24 00:53:14
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Sonar was never intended to be a notation program. Notation is there merely to assist in editing MIDI tracks. Actually, before Pro Audio and Sonar, Cakewalk was a notion program designed to compose by manually editing notes on the staff. That was why I bought it many years ago and largely how I have used it to date. Yes, they have changed direction (a few times, it seems as many of you have noted on the forum), but that doesn't excuse them for their half-*ssed execution of staff view to date. I am a hobbyist (as are most of us who don't earn our living solely creating music --whether we admit it or not) but since I spent the time and the money, I'd like the program to work as it was designed. My OP was just a solution that works for me until X1 gets there--if indeed it does. For the money, I was impressed with Guitar Pro 6 as an inexpensive composition tool, so I thought I'd share it. I guess what was really impressive about the program was that the one time it crashed, the next time I loaded the program it went automatically to a problem report screen where I could describe the problem and upload the file that caused the crash. That told me they were serious about their product living up its promise.
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WDI
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Re:Tired of Staff View?: Just a suggestion
2011/04/24 01:59:56
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Another GP user here. Good program with many features for the money.I also own Sibelius Student 5 which is also good but crippled. Full version of Sibelius would be the way to go if you can afford it (and need to do professional print scoring). I still like many things about Sonar Staff View. But the only time I'm interested in using Staff View is when I want a print out. Print formatting of Sonar Staff View fails miserably.
post edited by WDI - 2011/04/24 02:02:23
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Kev999
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Re:Tired of Staff View?: Just a suggestion
2011/04/24 03:39:01
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I don't use Staff View very often and sometimes I even forget that it exists. However, I do find it useful when I need to view several midi tracks together where there are a lot of unison notes or overlapping phrases. PRV can look cluttered whereas SV displays the different instruments on separate staves. I prefer editing in PRV though.
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sdpate67
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Re:Tired of Staff View?: Just a suggestion
2011/04/24 04:08:53
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Which program do you use to notate from the guitar. I tried Guitar Pro before on my midi guitar but it didn't work reliably.
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Fred Holmes
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Re:Tired of Staff View?: Just a suggestion
2011/04/24 11:28:38
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By far IMHO, the best low cost software for notation is Harmony Assistant from Myriad software.
Fred
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Gusfmm
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Re:Tired of Staff View?: Just a suggestion
2011/04/24 12:02:32
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daveny5
Sonar was never intended to be a notation program. Notation is there merely to assist in editing MIDI tracks. If you want notation, Finale Print Music is an inexpensive solution.
I'm not certain where you got that from... Notation was an important feature of Cakewalk... back when. I've been using it for many many years, and did write quite a bit of music on Cakewalk Pro Audio 6.
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pbognar
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Re:Tired of Staff View?: Just a suggestion
2011/04/24 12:07:30
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bsteven
Sonar was never intended to be a notation program. Notation is there merely to assist in editing MIDI tracks.
Actually, before Pro Audio and Sonar, Cakewalk was a notion program designed to compose by manually editing notes on the staff. That was why I bought it many years ago and largely how I have used it to date. Yes, they have changed direction (a few times, it seems as many of you have noted on the forum), but that doesn't excuse them for their half-*ssed execution of staff view to date.
I am a hobbyist (as are most of us who don't earn our living solely creating music --whether we admit it or not) but since I spent the time and the money, I'd like the program to work as it was designed. My OP was just a solution that works for me until X1 gets there--if indeed it does. For the money, I was impressed with Guitar Pro 6 as an inexpensive composition tool, so I thought I'd share it.
I guess what was really impressive about the program was that the one time it crashed, the next time I loaded the program it went automatically to a problem report screen where I could describe the problem and upload the file that caused the crash. That told me they were serious about their product living up its promise.
In what way was notation editing better in Cakewalk before it became Cakewalk Pro Audio or Sonar? Or am I misunderstanding your post?
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snookerc
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Re:Tired of Staff View?: Just a suggestion
2011/04/24 13:05:34
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Actually, before Pro Audio and Sonar, Cakewalk was a notion program designed to compose by manually editing notes on the staff. That was why I bought it many years ago and largely how I have used it to date. Yes, they have changed direction (a few times, it seems as many of you have noted on the forum), but that doesn't excuse them for their half-*ssed execution of staff view to date. Sorry, but I disagree. I bought Cakewalk (under DOS!) back in the early 90's and it was a MIDI sequencer program with absolutely no notation capabilities. I had to buy Finale Allegro (Windows 3.1 - ugh!) to get notation. Wikipedia says: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cakewalk_(sequencer)
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snookerc
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Re:Tired of Staff View?: Just a suggestion
2011/04/24 13:22:54
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Chris Snook (Computer playing guitar programmer) _______________________________________ Sonar Platinum Windows 10 x64 AMD Phenom II X6 2.8GHz Saffire 40 Pro 8GB RAM Alesis QS8.1 controller kb
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Combo
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Re:Tired of Staff View?: Just a suggestion
2011/04/24 14:32:30
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backwoods
The "Staff" views on all DAWs are only suitable for "semi pro" "hobbyist". If you are dead serious you will fork out for Sibeliuis or Finale.
That's true but misleading. The use of the Staff View in Sonar and other DAWs has nothing to do with a score-producing package like Sibelius or Finale - it's totally different. In Sonar it's main purpose is (or should be) as a music inputting tool, useful to those comfortable with notation for entering MIDI data, not really a tool for producing readable printed notation. Any function it has as the latter is a bonus at best. It's nowhere near Sibelius or Finale in that respect but nor should it be expected to be. (And true, only a hobbyist would use Sonar's Staff View for that purpose). I don't care if the notation produced is unreadable as printed out sheet music as long as it does the job of entering accurate musical information to the DAW. As an inputting tool it's key to what many people do, but in that respect has gone backwards in X1.
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vintagevibe
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Re:Tired of Staff View?: Just a suggestion
2011/04/24 14:41:14
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Every time this subject comes up there is a parade of people crying "it's not supposed to be a notation program". It's so tiring. These people should read the hundreds of pages of posts on this subject so they won't speak out of total ignorance.
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Combo
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Re:Tired of Staff View?: Just a suggestion
2011/04/24 14:54:32
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vintagevibe
Every time this subject comes up there is a parade of people crying "it's not supposed to be a notation program". It's so tiring. These people should read the hundreds of pages of posts on this subject so they won't speak out of total ignorance.
So there's a 'parade' of people who disagree with you ("crying" ffs) and they're all speaking 'out of total ignorance'? I've read all the threads and seen all the arguments. They haven't changed my views on this and won't. You're right though it's tiring, I've said my bit I can ignore these threads now for a month or two.
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WDI
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Re:Tired of Staff View?: Just a suggestion
2011/04/24 15:02:31
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sdpate
Which program do you use to notate from the guitar. I tried Guitar Pro before on my midi guitar but it didn't work reliably.
I have a Godin Multiac Nylon and Axon AX 100 MKll but have not tried it for notation yet. I'm pretty sure you can't notate in GP in real time but rather it enters the current note duration currently selected. At least that was my experience using keyboard. Also, I reported a bug to GP that notes would not play back when entered via keyboard until modified (select all and shift a pitch then shift back). The new Sibelius looks great for entering notes real time but I don't do enough notation to justify the upgrade from the student version I have. Just curious what midi guitar system you have and how it tracks? As far as playing the Multiac with Axon is pretty good but definitely not perfect. You have to really concentrate on keeping playing very clean. I have used it to track using an the Korg M3 keyboard sequencer and it works good. But again, you have to really try to play everything very clean. My guess it's just the nature of midi guitar. I also wonder if the nylon strings work as well as steel? As far as print from Sonar, I don't see why Cakewalk wouldn't make formatting look nice. I think the frustration from people supporting Staff View development comes from the fact that most the functionality is there but there are some problems and it hasn't been updated that I know of since using Cakewalk ProAudio9. Most of use probably would love to ditch the other programs and just work in Sonar and are not looking to create a professional prints for books. Just something that doesn't span 20 wasted pages with tons of white space and text on top of text.
post edited by WDI - 2011/04/24 15:27:13
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bsteven
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Re:Tired of Staff View?: Just a suggestion
2011/04/24 16:34:38
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In what way was notation editing better in Cakewalk before it became Cakewalk Pro Audio or Sonar? It has basically stayed the same and it was good enough for the way I used the program, but around Home Studio 6, I started having problems on the staff with lyrics and notes (unless they were on a single clip throughout out the track) there would likely be problems with the score. That may have finally been fixed or at least improved with X1b. Now, with X1 snap to doesn't work always work when placing notes on the staff manually. When I reported it, they said put in a feature request. That was the last straw for me, because until X1, snap to/by has always worked in staff view when inputting notes manually. Sorry, but I disagree. I bought Cakewalk (under DOS!) back in the early 90's and it was a MIDI sequencer program with absolutely no notation capabilities. I don't remember when staff view was introduced, but I believe it was soon after Cakewalk went to Windows, and I do believe it was before audio was introduced, but I could be wrong. Perhaps, I'm the only one out there who does a lot composing by manually by entering notes on the staff. If I'm not, then then you may understand why the feature can be so frustrating on X1 and easier on GP6. So many of your are right. Staff View is a dead horse. That's why I'm trying something else. I liked the experience with GP6 (which in no way could replace X1) so I thought I'd share it. If it doesn't apply to you--more power to you.
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snookerc
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Re:Tired of Staff View?: Just a suggestion
2011/04/24 16:55:18
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I understand your frustration. I think we're just trying to answer to statement that "its notation isn't fully functional". Sonar has some notation, sure, but it's not supposed to be an all-encompassing notation tool. It's like saying the my 4-door family car doesn't have room to haul a load of dirt. Sure, it has a trunk. But its primary function isn't to haul big loads of things :-)
Chris Snook (Computer playing guitar programmer) _______________________________________ Sonar Platinum Windows 10 x64 AMD Phenom II X6 2.8GHz Saffire 40 Pro 8GB RAM Alesis QS8.1 controller kb
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daveny5
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Re:Tired of Staff View?: Just a suggestion
2011/04/24 16:56:00
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daveny5
Sonar was never intended to be a notation program. Notation is there merely to assist in editing MIDI tracks. If you want notation, Finale Print Music is an inexpensive solution.
gusfmm I'm not certain where you got that from... Notation was an important feature of Cakewalk... back when. I've been using it for many many years, and did write quite a bit of music on Cakewalk Pro Audio 6. You can use the staff view to enter notation to some degree, but it never ever had full functionality. You can't even enter rests! You can only enter notes and it figures out where to put the rests. It has no capability for 1st and 2nd endings, Segno, Coda, triplets, tuplets, repeats, etc. Cakewalk started out as a SEQUENCING program and then it added RECORDING capability when audio recording capability came to computers. I know because I've been using Cakewalk and Sonar since the first version. If they added full notation function, then you could expect to pay a higher price, so instead, if you want notation, go buy or download a notation program. Its as simple as that.
post edited by daveny5 - 2011/04/24 16:57:52
Dave Computer: Intel i7, ASROCK H170M, 16GB/5TB+, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Sonar Platinum, TASCAM US-16x08, Cakewalk UM-3G MIDI I/F Instruments: SL-880 Keyboard controller, Korg 05R/W, Korg N1R, KORG Wavestation EX Axes: Fender Stratocaster, Line6 Variax 300, Ovation Acoustic, Takamine Nylon Acoustic, Behringer GX212 amp, Shure SM-58 mic, Rode NT1 condenser mic. Outboard: Mackie 1402-VLZ mixer, TC Helicon VoiceLive 2, Digitech Vocalist WS EX, PODXTLive, various stompboxes and stuff. Controllers: Korg nanoKONTROL, Wacom Bamboo Touchpad
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pbognar
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Re:Tired of Staff View?: Just a suggestion
2011/04/24 17:09:03
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@daveny5 - this is not a response to your post - I was writing while you were writing your post... The intent of Staff View in Cakewalk / Sonar has always been about inputting and editing MIDI data on a staff, otherwise why would it exist? With the latest hot fix to X1b, the duration function bug introduced in X1b appears to have been fixed, however the staff view duration key bindings are still broken in X1b, so even with Cakewalk having removed the musical note duration icons in the staff view, they have even made it impossible for Sonar Plus to bring back this functionality which existed in 8.5.3. Nevermind that one no longer have different snap to grid settings for the various views is X1. Currently in X1, we have actually taken a step backward in Staff View Land. Hopefully there will be a hot fix to at least get us back to the sub par Staff View which existed from early Cakewalk Windows days right up to 8.5.3. Now, with regard to printing scores - how can anyone say that function was never intended to be part of Cakewalk or Sonar, when there was a function to do so? Why not just say Cakewalk and Sonar had/have basic score printing functions? People: if you want improvements in staff editing and / or printing, don't give up. Let Cakewalk know that this is an important function for you. If you are a user who uses neither staff editing nor printing, your input that you can live without it is like one of us saying that we can live without one of the features you feel is important. My tolerance for some say "well, I never user staff view" gets on my nerves. I never use Beatscape either. Frankly, I'm pulling my hair out (I can't afford to lose any more). How can anyone minimize the written language of music? I can understand if Sonar is unable to produce engraving quality notation, but the staff view is just as valid as the piano roll view.
post edited by pbognar - 2011/04/24 17:11:46
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zoobooboozoo
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Re:Tired of Staff View?: Just a suggestion
2011/04/24 17:16:13
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A combination of Sonar and Guitar pro is my dream, I wish some port was available to make the staff view - guitar pro or guitar-pro-ish :)
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pbognar
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Re:Tired of Staff View?: Just a suggestion
2011/04/24 17:24:44
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zoobooboozoo
A combination of Sonar and Guitar pro is my dream, I wish some port was available to make the staff view - guitar pro or guitar-pro-ish :)
Hey look at us on Easter ranting about the staff view  I forgot to add something to may long winded post earlier - Personally, I am not an score exclusive composer. Far from it. I use hybrid approaches. Most times songs will start out with either MIDI / audio played in or generated somehow (even an idea plopped on to the staff) - so I prefer to have all my tools available to me in one environment. I don't want to be converting data between different programs. This may well be different from a person whose main tool is notation. For these people, perhaps a dedicated notation tool with playback capability might be the best place to start. Then, at some point, the MIDI data could be brought into Sonar and audio could be added. Finally, when the piece is finished, the MIDI could be exported back into the notation program for final printing.
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Gusfmm
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Re:Tired of Staff View?: Just a suggestion
2011/04/24 17:34:17
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pbognar
@daveny5 - this is not a response to your post - I was writing while you were writing your post...
The intent of Staff View in Cakewalk / Sonar has always been about inputting and editing MIDI data on a staff, otherwise why would it exist? With the latest hot fix to X1b, the duration function bug introduced in X1b appears to have been fixed, however the staff view duration key bindings are still broken in X1b, so even with Cakewalk having removed the musical note duration icons in the staff view, they have even made it impossible for Sonar Plus to bring back this functionality which existed in 8.5.3. Nevermind that one no longer have different snap to grid settings for the various views is X1. Currently in X1, we have actually taken a step backward in Staff View Land. Hopefully there will be a hot fix to at least get us back to the sub par Staff View which existed from early Cakewalk Windows days right up to 8.5.3.
Now, with regard to printing scores - how can anyone say that function was never intended to be part of Cakewalk or Sonar, when there was a function to do so? Why not just say Cakewalk and Sonar had/have basic score printing functions?
People: if you want improvements in staff editing and / or printing, don't give up. Let Cakewalk know that this is an important function for you.
If you are a user who uses neither staff editing nor printing, your input that you can live without it is like one of us saying that we can live without one of the features you feel is important. My tolerance for some say "well, I never user staff view" gets on my nerves. I never use Beatscape either.
Frankly, I'm pulling my hair out (I can't afford to lose any more). How can anyone minimize the written language of music?
I can understand if Sonar is unable to produce engraving quality notation, but the staff view is just as valid as the piano roll view.
Well said. There are many of us that totally sympathize. And just to reiterate/clarify, it's been said many other times, we are not asking for a full blown Notation/Printing software a la Finale or Sibelius, we're just asking for a decent staff music writing feature. It is about time.
post edited by Gusfmm - 2011/04/24 20:46:34
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vintagevibe
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Re:Tired of Staff View?: Just a suggestion
2011/04/24 20:49:43
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Combo
vintagevibe
Every time this subject comes up there is a parade of people crying "it's not supposed to be a notation program". It's so tiring. These people should read the hundreds of pages of posts on this subject so they won't speak out of total ignorance.
So there's a 'parade' of people who disagree with you ("crying" ffs) and they're all speaking 'out of total ignorance'? I've read all the threads and seen all the arguments. They haven't changed my views on this and won't. You're right though it's tiring, I've said my bit I can ignore these threads now for a month or two.
Combo, my post was aimed at people who think we are asking for Sonar to be Notation program instead of having notation on par with Cubase, Logic or Protools.
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jsg
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Re:Tired of Staff View?: Just a suggestion
2011/04/24 23:32:29
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Care to tell me how X1 has gone backwards in regard to Staff View? I use the staff view extensively and always have (currently running Sonar 7) and need it not as a notation program, I have Sibelius for that, but for composition and inputting. Is X1 not capable of doing everything in the staff view that Sonar 7 can? Thanks! Jerry Gerber www.jerrygerber.com
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pbognar
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Re:Tired of Staff View?: Just a suggestion
2011/04/24 23:36:30
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vintagevibe
Combo
vintagevibe
Every time this subject comes up there is a parade of people crying "it's not supposed to be a notation program". It's so tiring. These people should read the hundreds of pages of posts on this subject so they won't speak out of total ignorance.
So there's a 'parade' of people who disagree with you ("crying" ffs) and they're all speaking 'out of total ignorance'? I've read all the threads and seen all the arguments. They haven't changed my views on this and won't. You're right though it's tiring, I've said my bit I can ignore these threads now for a month or two.
Combo, my post was aimed at people who think we are asking for Sonar to be Notation program instead of having notation on par with Cubase, Logic or Protools.
+1000 "notation on par with Cubase, Logic or Protools." - it can't be any more succinct. If only we could make this a sticky on the forum.
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JClosed
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Re:Tired of Staff View?: Just a suggestion
2011/04/25 03:01:37
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Well - I agree the notation in Sonar must work just as good as the previous version. I do not disagree with that a bit. However - if you bring notation up to par with Cubase, just expect to pay as much for Sonar as for Cubase. Do not underestimate the complexity of programming of a full scale notation (complete with ornamentation and typesetting) including translating to MIDI. So - adding full scale notation would bring Sonar probably in the same price range as Cubase etc. That would increase the price with about $200,- or even more. Now - I do not use noatation in Sonar a lot, so for me it is just not worth the price increase. Personally (and this is really strictly personal) If I want to do notation only I use a simple free program like LillyPond: http://lilypond.org/ or a cheap program like Harmony Assistant: http://www.myriad-online...en/products/harmony.htm I rather have Sonar for a lower price than Cubase etc., and let the people that really need a full blown notation pay $200,- for the "notation expansion". In practice however, it is just as easy to buy Sonar and -if you need it- buy a notation program on top of it. As I said - notation in X1 has to be up to par with previous versions, but I just do not want to pay more for Sonar for something I rarely use. I do think that there are more users like me.
post edited by JClosed - 2011/04/25 03:34:39
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backwoods
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Re:Tired of Staff View?: Just a suggestion
2011/04/25 03:15:48
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I agree with you JClosed except I'd go further and say that they might as well dump it all together as far as I'm concerned. And yes, I can read music.
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