In my opinion, one must realise that Sibelius is NOT a DAW and Sonar is NOT a notation programme. I wish Sonar would just omit the notation application completely in the next update and update some of the aging 32 bit plugins that seems to have been around forever. Its staff view is just dead weight as far as I'm concerned. This is just my humble opinion.

Just the way Cubase did and Logic too, right?

FullChordMusic

In my opinion, one must realise that Sibelius is NOT a DAW and Sonar is NOT a notation programme. I wish Sonar would just omit the notation application completely in the next update and update some of the aging 32 bit plugins that seems to have been around forever. Its staff view is just dead weight as far as I'm concerned.

 

Sonar is a DAW that has notation editing that is inferior and needs improvement.   I use Sibelius for what notation programs are for.  I use Sonar for what DAWs are for and need tools equal to Pro Tools Cubase, Logic etc...  Unlike you I don't wish others to do without tools just because I don't need them.  

trimph1


Ah, the never ending loop.

I would like it if the SV was actually updated myself, but I am not going to hold my breath and do foot stomps about it not getting updated either....

Foot stomps just might do the job. LOL It used to when I was 3.

I find it incredible that anyone can be opposed to this. I don't see how it would impact those that never use the Staff view. For those that don't want it improved or would want it removed how is it a factor to you no matter what is done with it? I just don't get it.

I am also so tired of anyone saying get another program to do what should be done in X1. A separate notation program is not a solution and never will be.

What if those of us asked for the Piano Roll be removed in favor of a full featured Staff view would that be fine with you? We are not asking for any feature or ability to be removed we are simply asking for a long standing feature be updated.

BTW I am all for a full feature Staff view not just a few improvements. As I and so many others have pointed out Logic and Cubase have done this. Their notation is on par with Sibelius. They can even print their scores without problems. Imagine that!

Beepster


Sounds like they should bake up a paid, dockable add on for those really interested in a fully functional notation solution. That is a lot of designing and coding, thus the high price of other pro notation software. I'd pay for it if it was an option. As far as what is included with X1... yeah, it's a little clunky but it seems to mostly work. I think I'll be able to make use of it. Definitely could use some tweaks though. The way the notes look all weird when making chords on the staff is a little annoying and the guitar chord graph is... uh bizarre. You punch in a standard chord manually and it makes some weird bendy acid trip image. Very strange. Inputting and editing notes is pretty strange too but once I read the manual on how it's supposed to be done it's not too hard. Meh... just some first impressions from a n00b.

Notation has been in Sonar from the beginning. It goes way back before Sonar, before looping, before audio snap. It was in Pro 8  and Pro Audio 9. So its part of the program an I would be really upset if it became an option.

Man, that Cubase staff view is looking really nice . . . really like the one in DP too. Apparently developed with Howard Shore during the whole LOTR thing. I'm hoping sonar does update it down the road. I really like sonar, especially X1. It's a vast improvement over previous versions--to me at least. I know some prefer older versions.

LOL Trimph!

John,

I don't think anyone is opposed to improving staff view.  I can't imagine any rational person being opposed to any improvement in the program, even if it is for features that they may not personally use as long as it does not affect the features they do use.  i think the conflict on this topic arises from the snobby tone and insults dished out by the staff view improvement mob. It is more than possible to adamantly make requests without resorting to putting down people who may not rely on the particular feature you are championing.  There are quite a few people on this board who use Sonar professionally who happen to not rely on SV, but according to the likes of Vintagevibe, these people are somehow less professional than him. According to him, there is this assumption that people not using SV for composing are unable to read music and tonedef.  Insulting the customer base because you have an issue with the company is childish and it leads to conflict that does not help gain sympathy for their cause.

dubdisciple


John,

I don't think anyone is opposed to improving staff view.  I can't imagine any rational person being opposed to any improvement in the program, even if it is for features that they may not personally use as long as it does not affect the features they do use.  i think the conflict on this topic arises from the snobby tone and insults dished out by the staff view improvement mob. It is more than possible to adamantly make requests without resorting to putting down people who may not rely on the particular feature you are championing.  There are quite a few people on this board who use Sonar professionally who happen to not rely on SV, but according to the likes of Vintagevibe, these people are somehow less professional than him. According to him, there is this assumption that people not using SV for composing are unable to read music and tonedef.  Insulting the customer base because you have an issue with the company is childish and it leads to conflict that does not help gain sympathy for their cause.

Very interesting post. I am not in favor of anyone being "snobbish". We do see it though on both sides.

It does seem snobbish to me when this request has been brought up for years and we see the same replies.
We have even seen that some would prefer X1 didn't have notation at all. To me that is a high level of snobbishness. Perhaps some haven't noticed this but for as long as Sonar has been around the users that only record audio seem to have a very high regard for that and disdain anyone that uses MIDI.

What baffles me is how can anyone be opposed to people using the tools that are part of a program and asking for improvements to those tools. No one can deny that there have been post in this very thread that propose that very idea.

Yes notation is a skill and I guess some few view it as a snobbish skill. Which ever side one is coming from though, that shouldn't enter into it.

Perhaps we all need to see the other side and feel what that side is feeling. That doesn't mean that asking for improvements in SV is not a valid request

Hahahaha! I'm laughing at the idea that knowing how to read and write music properly is "snobbish". I mean my personal opinion is that notation is overly cumbersome and outdated but it is what we have and it's been around for hundreds of years but more importantly IT WORKS. Also it is extremely useful to learn even if you don't intend to do any sight reading or staff composition. Understanding how the circle of fifths works and how it relates to notation is a HUGE learning breakthrough for grasping general music theory and I try to get those ideas and concepts through to anyone I teach these days. Once you see it in your minds eye everything becomes WAY easier.

Beepster..i did not say knowing how to read and write music properly is snobbish.  i said assuming that those who do not compose music in sonar using SV and assuming those who do not use it cannot read music is snobbish.  Big difference!  So, please read what i say carefully before making a statement that does not apply.  I have been reading and writing music since childhood and think it is still a valuable tool that is not going away anytime soon.  My point was that just because someone does not choose to use Sonar in that way says nothing about their ability or professionalism.

Oh and thanks for those links, js516. I'll be taking a close look at those. I will say again though that perhaps Cake should look into letting a third party notation software developer write something that can be integrated with Sonar and more specifically something dockable.

The Score Editor in Cubase.

 
Wow, John!  A picture speaks a thousand words. 
 
But--Cakewalk's Staff View has never been anything close to that, and never tried to be.  The impression I'm getting from some people is it's "broken", but I don't find that to be true.  I'm very much in favor of improvements, I just don't understand why anybody would expect it to be something it's never been, or compare it to something like the Score Editor you pictured.  That looks fantastic and I'd love to have something like that in Sonar, no doubt.  But is that a realistic expectation for Sonar?  It would be exciting to see it happen.  If that's what a person really needs, however, why would that person not choose to go with Cubase or whatever? 
 
Add my voice to the petition for an improved Staff View, for certain.  I simply don't understand the attitude that often seems to go with it.

dubdisciple


John, using notation in and of itself is not snobbish.  it is the idea that proposing that anyone who does not use that feature is somehow less professional that is the snobbish component.  Like i said, a lot of times it is not what is said but how it is said.  When remarks become personal and insulting, the focus of the conversation tends to get lost. People who are somewhat apathetic about the issue suddenly become "I'm against whatever that jackass is for" creeps in. The very first post i ever read by vintagevibe was a post he started and broadly insulted those who did not use staff view and claimed they could not read music. That tone will not get you anywhere except those who are already on your side.

I do feel sympathy for those who need improvements just like i feel for those who want improvements in other areas. Being pragmatic, I'm not going to cry if the feature is lost, but certainly have no desire to see it go or diminish quality. I feel that improvements make the program more valuable as a whole to users of all professional levels and styles.  It's just hard to assist a fight for those who clearly feel they are superior.

All I can say is I am on your side in that I hear what you are saying and I agree with it. There is no place for anyone attacking anyone personally.  Attack ideas but never attack people. We are all in this together as users. We should all stick together as users.

After all that is what a user's forum is all about anyway.

I feel complimented in that you thought you could address me in stating your views. That is a very high compliment to me anyway. The fact that you thought I would listen is important to me. And I have.

Thank you.

I still want better notation.

dubdisciple

Being pragmatic, I'm not going to cry if the feature is lost, but certainly have no desire to see it go or diminish quality. I feel that improvements make the program more valuable as a whole to users of all professional levels and styles.  It's just hard to assist a fight for those who clearly feel they are superior.

I think you're presenting a fair position with your viewpoint and expressing it in a respectful and professional manner. Your point about other 'arrogant'-sounding posts is clear. I think part of that tone though maybe more expressing extreme frustration on the topic than just pure arrogance.
 
But I think your thought above was not very clear and compelling, and tries to be very politically correct, which doesn't help much in the conversation- if you really wouldn't cry if something like SV was eliminated, I cannot understand how you can say that you wouldn't like to see it go or diminish in quality. If improvements can make the program more valuable to all users, then the notion of professional users using X1 that do not use SV implies just the opposite.
 
Don't view this as a battle between parties who feel superior or not, think about it as a long-standing struggle for users that have been crying for some attention from Cakewalk over the course of many years now, cry that seems to not have been seriously considered as we were expecting.
 
In my particular case, for whatever it is worth it, I almost switched to Cubase recently after having been a Cakewalk/Sonar user for about 20 years. I hesitated for several hours that day, as I've done in several other opportunities in the past few years. I quite dislike the need to have to retrain myself, so again, put it off until X2 is released. But I'm definitely on the verge, and willing to do it if need be, as cannot accept anymore using a DAW that falls dramatically behind its competition in aspects that are critical to my core use, e.g. SV, VST3, MIDI/controller 'editing'.
 
 

Gus, you are correct in that my statement was not clear.  Maybe a better choice of words would be that if it were to go, it would not make me stop using Sonar. The truth is that there are many features in Sonar and many programs i use that I never use and rarely think about them because they simply are inapplicable until I am directly asked. I don't know  of any motion graphics artist that uses the CC Mr Mercury filter in After Effects but  i doubt any of them would petition it have it removed because  it is usually better to have it and not need it than the reverse.

Your point is well taken.  I know i shouldn't see this is a battle of arrogance, but humans tend to respond better to people who come off as a little more likable regardless of the topic.

I think heather has the most reasonable solution; a version of sonar with added functionality for those willing to pay for it.  i know one of my considerations for choosing Sonar over Cubase or Pro tools was price.  If a feature I don't use causes the price to be in the range of Cubase then i might as well use Cubase.