Helpful ReplyVari Speed-Why Not?

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Anderton
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Re: Vari Speed-Why Not? 2014/04/05 16:59:07 (permalink)
I'll ask Noel how easy or difficult it would be to do "dumb" variable speed, like the way tape does it.

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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Vari Speed-Why Not? 2014/04/05 17:03:28 (permalink)
Anderton
 
Depends on how you define "reasonable."  I don't know much about coding, but I suspect that to add a "simple, straightforward vari-speed function" to Sonar would require ripping the audio engine apart and putting it back together again using a completely different approach. It probably wouldn't be as difficult if all you wanted to do was change pitch and accept that the duration will get longer or shorter (as with tape), but still, I question how many people would consider this such an important feature that they'd be willing to give up all the other cool things that could be done with an equal amount of development work - especially because there are workarounds that so far, have addressed almost all of the vari-speed needs people have brought up.
 
Some of the workarounds, like pitch-up/pitch down voices, aren't even particularly time-consuming - basically, the time required to create a premix. I'd rather spend a few extra minutes on a workaround during the rare times when I need vari-speed than hang up Sonar's development team for several months...maybe Noel could chime in on how easy or difficult this would be. If they could do standard tape vari-speed in a few days, sure, go for it! Otherwise, it's not high on my personal list of priorities.



Right, its how much benefit a feature might have to the largest subset of users that determines its priority on our todo list. Varispeed is useful no doubt and I can see all the use cases mentioned. 
Essentially varispeed requires some look ahead and resampling of the playback data stream before it goes out to the audio device. We have tools to do all that today but the devil is in the details with stuff like this, handling virtual instruments, hardware MIDI etc. In a complex DAW even the simplest of operations has tons of integration repercussions to do it right. Regarding how time consuming it would be to do, I haven't given it a huge amount of thought TBH. Definitely a lot more than a few days but much less than a rewrite <g>
 
I'm curious what happens to input monitoring in the DAW's that implement this like Logic. Is that also subject to the varispeed changes or is that unaffected?

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BlixYZ
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Re: Vari Speed-Why Not? 2014/04/05 17:27:07 (permalink)
While there are workarounds for anything you want to do (I've yet to resort to using another program for time and pitch stretching), if Reaper can implement varispeed, well, nuff said.  
Sonar was the first full DAW to have integrated REX loops, why didn't varispeed closely follow?  
 
I love Sonar, but this is the one area where we are behind.  Elastic audio in PT is also a better implementation than AS and whatnot.

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Re: Vari Speed-Why Not? 2014/04/05 18:27:49 (permalink)
I posted something this afternoon but apparently it this not show up...
I also would like a stop/start tape effect. I now have to export and do in in Reaper.
It would be nice to have this build-in in sonar. Really!!!
 
 


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scook
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Re: Vari Speed-Why Not? 2014/04/05 18:31:42 (permalink)
djoni
I posted something this afternoon but apparently it this not show up...

see http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3020108
I would imagine there are a few free plug-ins (and maybe a few paid ones too) which perform the tapestop effect
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Anderton
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Re: Vari Speed-Why Not? 2014/04/05 19:36:09 (permalink)
BlixYZ
if Reaper can implement varispeed, well, nuff said.  
Sonar was the first full DAW to have integrated REX loops, why didn't varispeed closely follow? 



REX loops and Acidized files are a totally different technology compared to varispeed. They both depend on slicing a wave into sections, but from there, even REX and Acidized files differ considerably in what they do next.
 
All programs are built with unique features in mind that other programs may or may not be able to implement easily, especially if choosing one or the other involves a tradeoff.

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Re: Vari Speed-Why Not? 2014/04/05 19:37:12 (permalink)
Wow I go away for a couple of days and when I return there is full blown discussion on this.  I'm starting to see the problems in implementing now Noel, thanks for chiming in.  I'm a Sonar supporter through and through just upgraded to X3, and I've been here now since Sonar 2.  Wow time has flown. 
 
For me the work around's that Craig has mentioned take the concept of "tape" speed away from it's original idea.  I want just one button to speed up or slow down a project.  I actually need it for my work.
 
To answer Lynns and a few others question in regards to how good is it in Reaper, the answer is it's flawless.  I can't detect any digital artefacts (noise) in the processed file.
 
So the issue seems to be as Noel has mentioned that once you start adding VST's into a project, this is where I gets harder to implement.  If this is the case can't we have a situation where we would have to freeze all the synths so it then just becomes an audio only project.  Maybe a freeze all button that is linked to a speed dial.
 
After browsing through over3 pages of comments, there seems to be a groundswell of opinion that this feature is now high on the priority list of most Sonar users, Noel!  And I think this is because Sonar is used by composers/producers who are of a certain ilk, so rock, pop composers.  Yes I know Hip Hop, Dance and the like also use Sonar, but it seems to be used a lot more by real musicians. ;)
 
Ok I have another feature request but I will leave it till this one dies down, hint its now a feature in the new BitWig program.
 
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Re: Vari Speed-Why Not? 2014/04/05 19:54:29 (permalink)
BenMMusTech
After browsing through over3 pages of comments, there seems to be a groundswell of opinion that this feature is now high on the priority list of most Sonar users, Noel!  And I think this is because Sonar is used by composers/producers who are of a certain ilk, so rock, pop composers.  Yes I know Hip Hop, Dance and the like also use Sonar, but it seems to be used a lot more by real musicians. ;)
 

 
erm I wouldn't draw that conclusion based on this thread alone :) Obviously users who are interested in this feature would respond to a thread about it...

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John
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Re: Vari Speed-Why Not? 2014/04/05 19:55:29 (permalink)
Even though this thread has shown a big interest in vari-speed by many on the forum. By no means is that definitive of all Sonar users.  Right now there are 33 members on the forums here and 701 guests. As I recall the total number of members is in the range of many tens of thousands. The old forum software use to give that statistic. i can't find that number now, but its large.
 
So to say that a feature is wanted by "most Sonar users" is without basis.  
 
I have no problem with the notion and will support the forum in asking for it but I wont use hyperbole to advance my case.

Best
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Re: Vari Speed-Why Not? 2014/04/05 20:27:34 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby chefmike8888 2014/04/06 12:01:48
Based on what Craig and Noel said, I'm surmising that Sonar's audio engine is too complicated to implement this feature without a huge overhaul compared to Reaper.  I liken Sonar to Internet Explorer as Reaper would be to Chrome, meaning that Reaper is less encumbered with features while Sonar is much more heavily laden with routines.  I'm not sure if it would be worth it to rewrite the Sonar audio engine just for this lone feature.  Maybe it's cheaper just to purchase Reaper and use it (as some are doing now) along with Sonar, or use another program such as Sound Forge which also has sort of a vari-speed function.  Just a few thoughts...

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Re: Vari Speed-Why Not? 2014/04/05 20:37:59 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby chefmike8888 2014/04/06 12:01:58
I would think that vari-speed might require a separate audio engine.  Adding stuff to the existing one would make it less efficient and nobody wants that.
 

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Re: Vari Speed-Why Not? 2014/04/05 20:38:31 (permalink)
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
BenMMusTech
After browsing through over3 pages of comments, there seems to be a groundswell of opinion that this feature is now high on the priority list of most Sonar users, Noel!  And I think this is because Sonar is used by composers/producers who are of a certain ilk, so rock, pop composers.  Yes I know Hip Hop, Dance and the like also use Sonar, but it seems to be used a lot more by real musicians. ;)
 

 
 
erm I wouldn't draw that conclusion based on this thread alone :) Obviously users who are interested in this feature would respond to a thread about it...




Lol :) as a keen observer and student of politics Noel and John, I am not averse to using hyperbole to cement an idea into popular consciousness.
 
DigiMidi, it was me who suggested Reaper.  The problem for me is, I have a track where I have taken the stereo master and imported it into Reaper, then used vari speed this way.  I want to do a 5.1 mix of this track for my Honours project and to bounce everything out including bus effects is going to be a huge task.  And I feel dirty ;) Sonar is partner, not Reaper!!
 
Ben
 

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Anderton
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Re: Vari Speed-Why Not? 2014/04/05 20:46:26 (permalink)
BenMMusTech
 
To answer Lynns and a few others question in regards to how good is it in Reaper, the answer is it's flawless.  I can't detect any digital artefacts (noise) in the processed file.


 
I'm still curious whether Reaper's variable speed does or does not change duration with pitch. If it does change duration, and is like tape varispeed, then that's something Sound Forge has been doing for decades by resampling. So apparently it's no huge deal if you're just dealing with audio and not things like virtual instruments. However, I would also think that once the slowdown gets really slow, it would be hard to avoid aliasing or foldover distortion.
 
Also, different people define "flawless" differently. For example, the formant with tape varispeed changes dramatically but there's no distortion or stuttering.
 
If any program can do transposition +/- an octave flawlessly while retaining duration, I want it!!! And I want it even more if it can do this in real time. Meanwhile, IMHO iZotope and zplane have the recipe down best for independent time/pitch stretching.

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Re: Vari Speed-Why Not? 2014/04/05 21:22:37 (permalink)
Anderton
BenMMusTech
 
To answer Lynns and a few others question in regards to how good is it in Reaper, the answer is it's flawless.  I can't detect any digital artefacts (noise) in the processed file.


 
I'm still curious whether Reaper's variable speed does or does not change duration with pitch. If it does change duration, and is like tape varispeed, then that's something Sound Forge has been doing for decades by resampling. So apparently it's no huge deal if you're just dealing with audio and not things like virtual instruments. However, I would also think that once the slowdown gets really slow, it would be hard to avoid aliasing or foldover distortion.
 
Also, different people define "flawless" differently. For example, the formant with tape varispeed changes dramatically but there's no distortion or stuttering.
 
If any program can do transposition +/- an octave flawlessly while retaining duration, I want it!!! And I want it even more if it can do this in real time. Meanwhile, IMHO iZotope and zplane have the recipe down best for independent time/pitch stretching.




Hi Craig, it does change time, so I slowed the track down slightly and then sped it up (the track was about 3:40 and after screwing around with the time, it ended up 4:00 mins) and it is all in real time and it is midi automatable.  It does have a switch where you can keep a constant pitch whilst speeding and slowing things up which may mean it keeps constant time.  But I'd have to investigate this idea further. 
 
As for noise, I was talking about clicks or as I like to call them digital artefacts.  I had a track a few years ago and I slowed it down using Audio Snap palate, now I loved the effect but because there was already some AS adjustments, the AS over top made them stick out.  So this is what I mean by flawless.  There is no clicks.  Just a beautiful clean "tape" sound. 
 
Here is the track I did, everything was done in Sonar apart from the tape speed effect.  You might be able to hear stuff that I can't.  The tape speed is in the break down after the middle, and the track speeds up in the solo. https://soundcloud.com/the-poetry-of-sound/thehub The synth sound is done in Padshop a granular synth (I wouldn't mind one of these too Noel) and all the sounds are "found" sounds ala music concrete and Russolo: The Art of Noise.
 
Ben
 
 

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Re: Vari Speed-Why Not? 2014/04/05 21:24:41 (permalink)
Although I never use it...my pianos are never out of 440....:-D   ...But Adobe Audition's version along with Sony's, didn't seem unusable, as long as you didn't get to crazy with it.  Adobe had/has some presets..."turntable winding down", etc...that actually sounded very good.  Sony's allows for preserving duration, with Audition's didn't....IF I remember.
 
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Re: Vari Speed-Why Not? 2014/04/05 22:43:13 (permalink)
digimidi
Based on what Craig and Noel said, I'm surmising that Sonar's audio engine is too complicated to implement this feature without a huge overhaul compared to Reaper.  I liken Sonar to Internet Explorer as Reaper would be to Chrome, meaning that Reaper is less encumbered with features while Sonar is much more heavily laden with routines.  I'm not sure if it would be worth it to rewrite the Sonar audio engine just for this lone feature.  Maybe it's cheaper just to purchase Reaper and use it (as some are doing now) along with Sonar, or use another program such as Sound Forge which also has sort of a vari-speed function.  Just a few thoughts...



You're welcome to draw whatever conclusions you wish but that's not even close to what I said. In the software world its very seldom that large components like an engine are rewritten. A feature like this would require some enhancements to what we have, rather than "rewrites". The details I was referring to apply to any reasonably complex application level feature we add to SONAR. There is a lot more than an "engine" in SONAR and implementing a feature takes updates to many different areas of the application to integrate it well. UI, workflow, persistence, commands are a few areas that are updated with almost any feature we do and they all have costs.
post edited by Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk] - 2014/04/05 22:53:48

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Re: Vari Speed-Why Not? 2014/04/05 23:10:01 (permalink)
Thanks for responding to this thread again, Noel Borthwick . I appreciate what you're saying and would only add that a feature that was readily available in (now) fairly primitive recording environments like Portastudios was very simple and immediate to use. It wasn't complicated and didn't involve many (actually practically no) steps and is fondly remembered by us fossils. It would be welcomed with wizened but open arms.
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Re: Vari Speed-Why Not? 2014/04/05 23:17:35 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk] 2014/04/05 23:29:17
Yep plus 1 to Noel and chiming in on the topic.  Now lets hope we see Vari Speed in X4, it's something I would pay a 150 bucks for.
 
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Re: Vari Speed-Why Not? 2014/04/05 23:36:37 (permalink)
I have never heard any details about how vari-speed actually works in Reaper and other programs.  For example, what happens when you play back at slow speed and apply a time-based effect?  Does it automatically adjust the timings to match the playback speed or does it apply the effects at their current settings?  Or does vari-speed playback only apply to the entire mix rather than to each track?

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Re: Vari Speed-Why Not? 2014/04/05 23:48:36 (permalink)
Update: I verified that the "Chipmunk sound" workaround I mentioned does indeed work, but I'd add two more points.
 
1. If you just use the iZotope algorithm to transpose up an octave it gets you most of the way there, and you don't have to do anything else.
 
2. If you go for the full pitch + speed change, it's best to trim the clip just before the part you want to play back (e.g., in SD3 - thanks scook) and apply trimming so you can trigger it at just the right time by hitting a key or entering a MIDI note.
 
Regarding the "how to make a track a little sharp while an instrument that's slightly sharp plays along with it," I may have found an easier way...checking it out now.

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Re: Vari Speed-Why Not? 2014/04/05 23:52:22 (permalink)
BenMMusTech
Here is the track I did, everything was done in Sonar apart from the tape speed effect.  You might be able to hear stuff that I can't.  The tape speed is in the break down after the middle, and the track speeds up in the solo.




Given the program material, I really can't tell what's going on with the varispeed fidelity. I'd need to hear it on an acoustic instrument or something like a relatively sparse pop song.

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Re: Vari Speed-Why Not? 2014/04/06 01:30:33 (permalink)
FWIW I would pay very good money to have vari-speed on Sonar. It's the thing I most miss having abandoned tape. Afterall, it's what Michael Tretow used to put that zing into those ABBA recordings: double & tripple tracks, each one slightly pitch-varied :-) Brilliant for doing BV's!
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Re: Vari Speed-Why Not? 2014/04/06 01:46:39 (permalink)
my vote for vari speed + 1000 been waiting a few versions now for it.
 

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Re: Vari Speed-Why Not? 2014/04/06 02:02:15 (permalink)
Counting Coup
FWIW I would pay very good money to have vari-speed on Sonar. It's the thing I most miss having abandoned tape. Afterall, it's what Michael Tretow used to put that zing into those ABBA recordings: double & tripple tracks, each one slightly pitch-varied :-) Brilliant for doing BV's!
(David goes off to stare longingly at his E16)




I had a breakthrough in the studio tonight regarding varispeed and Sonar. I'm presenting the first solution here, which is about doing true tape varispeed on individual clips. I also have a solution for doing what you describe with doing slightly pitch-varied tracks but I'm still finalizing the writeup.

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Re: Vari Speed-Why Not? 2014/04/06 02:45:51 (permalink)
Craig. Thanks for this. I look forward to trying this when I get to work in the morning.
However to be any real use in the longer term, it needs to be a simple knob that takes your entire DAW up or down +- x%: just like with tape. I almost jumped ship once for lack of it and I've been a loyal chapie since DOS4.5

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#85
Bobben
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Re: Vari Speed-Why Not? 2014/10/10 04:17:39 (permalink)
 
It is also a workaround to varispeed the complete Sonar DAW by using hardware which provides sample rate offset.
As I could not find all the info I searched for I want to share the results of my tests:
http://forum.cakewalk.com...-m3102282.aspx#3102282
#86
Chregg
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Re: Vari Speed-Why Not? 2014/10/10 06:38:56 (permalink)
vari speed has been coming into my thoughts as well with sonar, interesting Ben should bring it up
#87
Grem
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Re: Vari Speed-Why Not? 2014/10/10 07:13:22 (permalink)
Just a bump on this. Bobben has come up with an interesting idea here for the vari-speed Sonar dilemma.

I am wondering what others with more technical abilities think of his "technique"

Follow his link above to see what I am talking about.

Grem

Michael
 
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#88
Bobben
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Re: Vari Speed-Why Not? 2014/10/11 09:46:53 (permalink)
I have now had success in Sonar X3 with +/-12.5% hardware based varispeed at 88.2kHz by using Sony CDP-D500 CD player as master clock for my RME audio interface:
http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3102812
#89
dke
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Re: Vari Speed-Why Not? 2014/10/11 14:20:00 (permalink)
Before I went 64 bit with Sonar I used a small DX plugin called PitchWorks that worked really well in real time.  You could change pitch, and/or tempo separately or together.  I could place it on the Master buss and affect all audio or use it on individual tracks.  As small as the plugin was (628kb) I can't imagine there is really that much to implementing varispeed.  Heck I think it would almost be better to have it as a plugin personally.
 
Dan

Sonar Platinum ( x64),  Windows 10 x64, HP Envy i5 2.9GHZ, 8GB, Tascam 4x4 USB, BX5a Monitors.
#90
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