RTGraham
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RE: Varispeed
2008/12/04 01:20:02
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ORIGINAL: papa2004 I would record the first pass at normal speed. Then I would slow the tape slightly and record another pass. Sometimes I would slow the tape just a tad more and record another pass. When all of the tracks were played back at normal speed, the resulting effect (due to the timbre changes in the BGV's that recorded at slower speeds) was an added "sheen" or "emphasis" to the mixed tracks. Best of all, because they were recorded in "real-time" at varying speeds the tracks retained the proper phrasing, breathing, attacks & cutoffs. The properly done the effect was "subtle" but one could tell the difference between that technique vs. simply doubling or using a chorus/delay effect. I felt compelled to post a (long) comment in the thread that LAW linked to above; but here's another thought that just occurred to me: Since it's not just the pitch and speed change, but rather the timbre change as well that is so attractive to us who appreciate the benefits and usage of varispeed, there *is* a quick trick to approximate just the timbre change, if that's your main goal. And it's formant adjustment. You can do it in V-Vocal, or in Melodyne. Record your background tracks without varispeeding, but then select the entire clip afterwards, load it into V-Vocal or Melodyne, and shift the formant up or down as desired. Different amounts on different tracks will give you results something like the stacked "sheen" and "emphasis" that you describe. But yes, a real Varispeed would be a welcome addition. I can't even do it from my FireFace, because I don't run the FireFace as the master clock (everything is clocked to an Aardsync, which has more discrete and more limited clock options). I suppose I could set the FireFace as the master and use its internal varispeed on specific occasions if need be, but I've never tried it.
~~~~~~~~~~ Russell T. Graham Keys, Vocals, Songwriting, Production russell DOT graham AT rtgproductions DOT com www DOT myspace DOT com SLASH russelltgraham
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evansmalley
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RE: Varispeed
2008/12/04 09:04:57
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well, for one thing it was easy and global- not a plug-in for a track. If you try Reaper you'll see how easy VSO works with one slider on the overall mix. The tools in sonar do work, as far as i know though you can't just do it to the whole mix with a simple slider. Some of the tools in Sonar DO offer options for individual tracks well beyond what the tape machine could do, though...
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papa2004
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RE: Varispeed
2008/12/04 09:33:20
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ORIGINAL: montezuma I mean if it's in Sonar as MPEX Time/Pitch, why do lots of people on this forum still request 'varispeed'? If it exists as MPEX, wouldn't everyone know that and just tell people to put down their glasses whenever they say that they want varispeed? anyway, it doesn't matter It's not the same thing and it DOES matter...Those of us who've had the pleasure (and nightmares) of working in an entirely analog world understand the difference...
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papa2004
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RE: Varispeed
2008/12/04 09:36:25
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ORIGINAL: RTGraham You can do it in V-Vocal, or in Melodyne. Record your background tracks without varispeeding, but then select the entire clip afterwards, load it into V-Vocal or Melodyne, and shift the formant up or down as desired. Different amounts on different tracks will give you results something like the stacked "sheen" and "emphasis" that you describe. Thanks for the tip...When I get a chance I'll try it...
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RTGraham
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RE: Varispeed
2008/12/04 10:42:11
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ORIGINAL: montezuma I mean if it's in Sonar as MPEX Time/Pitch, why do lots of people on this forum still request 'varispeed'? If it exists as MPEX, wouldn't everyone know that and just tell people to put down their glasses whenever they say that they want varispeed? anyway, it doesn't matter First, MPEX Time/Pitch is not quite the same thing. The whole point of pitch shifters like MPEX is to make it possible to *independently* adjust time and pitch; the nature of analog tape was that time and pitch were interrelated. All of the digital tools that are now at our disposal (MPEX, Serato Time&Pitch, V-Vocal, Auto-Tune, Melodyne, etc., etc., etc.) have been programmed with one common goal: to break the natural physical acoustic link between speed and pitch. Note that in the natural world, and when discussing acoustical physics, the word for pitch measurements - "frequency" - is also a word that represents a measurement of speed. The third component that emerged as a result of all of this research and development is the ability to independently manipulate, along with time and pitch, the _formant_ of the audio - that is to say, the fixed relationship between certain harmonics in the sound source, regardless of pitch (this is part of what defines the timbre of the sound source). While the current set of tools excels at this extraordinary feat, very few of them offer the option to *preserve* the ratio between speed and pitch, and to create the resulting change in character and timbre that would have come from doing it with tape. Second, things like MPEX tend to be applied on a per-track basis; there's no global MPEX parameter in SONAR that will speed up or slow down the whole project at once. Part of the magic of varispeeding tape to achieve certain effects was that one control adjusted all of the tracks equally and simultaneously, and then brought them back to "normal" all at once. I've calmed down now, but I got much more long-winded about it HERE if you're interested.
~~~~~~~~~~ Russell T. Graham Keys, Vocals, Songwriting, Production russell DOT graham AT rtgproductions DOT com www DOT myspace DOT com SLASH russelltgraham
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DaneStewart
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RE: Varispeed
2008/12/04 12:01:37
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For those who don't get why VariSpeed is so important, here's a quick real-world example: I am holding in my hand a beautiful, hand-made Navajo flute. Its notes are perfectly in tune with each other, BUT - it is not in tune with the rest of the world, meaning its "A" is not in tune with A at 440. The instrument is not tunable. It is carved out of wood and does not have an adjustable mouthpiece or anything that will affect its tuning. I want to play it over an already recorded piece of music. How do you do it? Oh sure, you could bounce the whole mix down to a new track and apply a pitch shift. But what if the player needs to hear certain instrument tracks turned on and off at different times - like some off during record and then back on during playback check. Spending a bunch of time making a bunch of different bounces, and then getting the right ones selected or muted, in theory it works fine.... EXCEPT those extra steps and slowdowns have a way of KILLING THE CREATIVE FLOW OF THE MUSICIAN. Again, this hodge-podge method might work fine for me at home by myself with all the time in the world. But this versus "One Knob Set And Forget" is a huge difference. Almost all stand-alone digital recorders have VariSpeed, even old ones. My old AKAI DR4d and DR8d's have awesome one-button VariSpeed and I have used it countless times. When I get a project with a lot of non-tunable instruments I don't even turn SONAR on. I just use the 12 tracks of AKAI and bounce the tracks later. I'm going to download REAPER right now. -Anyone here know how well transferring REAPER tracks into SONAR for mix works??? Now that I know REAPER's VariSpeed works....
post edited by DaneStewart - 2008/12/04 12:03:16
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Vovchik
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RE: Varispeed
2008/12/04 12:37:40
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"I want to play it over an already recorded piece of music. " I would temporarely route all prerecorded tracks to separate bus and insert real-time pitch shifter into that bus. After the flute part has been recorded, delete temp bus and apply destructive pitch shift to the flute. Radius or MPEX algorhythms both are very good.
If It Ain't Broken, Don't Fix It
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evansmalley
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RE: Varispeed
2008/12/04 12:38:24
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hey dane- Exactly! As far as reaper transfer, just export a ref mix or several important .wav's, import into Reaper- bam! Varispeed and record in Reaper to heart's delight, then TURN OFF VARI-SPEED IN REAPER BEFORE EXPORTING BACK INTO SONAR! unless of course you like the changed pitch/speed! Then just export with the vari-speed ON and your tracks will export at the pitch/speed you were at in Reaper. It's easy. Can't believe Sonar can't do it when a bare-bones elementary app like Reaper does it front and center on the main page. That's why I reluctantly bought Reaper. HTH- Ev
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evansmalley
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RE: Varispeed
2008/12/04 12:41:37
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hey Vovchik- You COULD maybe do it that way... but reassigning 30+ tracks one at a time is WAAAAYYY more trouble than just one global slider. That's why guys who record lots of acoustic instruments really miss a simple vari-speed knob.
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RTGraham
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RE: Varispeed
2008/12/04 12:44:30
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ORIGINAL: DaneStewart For those who don't get why VariSpeed is so important, here's a quick real-world example: I am holding in my hand a beautiful, hand-made Navajo flute. Its notes are perfectly in tune with each other, BUT - it is not in tune with the rest of the world, meaning its "A" is not in tune with A at 440. The instrument is not tunable. It is carved out of wood and does not have an adjustable mouthpiece or anything that will affect its tuning. I want to play it over an already recorded piece of music. How do you do it? Oh sure, you could bounce the whole mix down to a new track and apply a pitch shift. But what if the player needs to hear certain instrument tracks turned on and off at different times - like some off during record and then back on during playback check. Spending a bunch of time making a bunch of different bounces, and then getting the right ones selected or muted, in theory it works fine.... EXCEPT those extra steps and slowdowns have a way of KILLING THE CREATIVE FLOW OF THE MUSICIAN. Again, this hodge-podge method might work fine for me at home by myself with all the time in the world. But this versus "One Knob Set And Forget" is a huge difference. Excellent example. ORIGINAL: Vovchik I would temporarely route all prerecorded tracks to separate bus and insert real-time pitch shifter into that bus. After the flute part has been recorded, delete temp bus and apply destructive pitch shift to the flute. Radius or MPEX algorhythms both are very good. Believe it or not, many instrumentalists / vocalists / performers, while they may not be golden-eared engineers or audiophiles, actually have very sensitive ears, and notice when an effect is being applied to audio. Good musicians and vocalists are trained to listen, and they *do* hear when something "isn't quite right." You can get away with varispeed much more easily than with a pitch shift plugin, without setting off the performer's "messing-with-the-audio alarm."
~~~~~~~~~~ Russell T. Graham Keys, Vocals, Songwriting, Production russell DOT graham AT rtgproductions DOT com www DOT myspace DOT com SLASH russelltgraham
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...wicked
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RE: Varispeed
2008/12/04 12:54:59
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Does digital vari-speed work the same way as tape though? (program agnostic) I wouldn't think it would "sound" the same, but I reckon I could be wrong. That said, yes it IS a shame SONAR doesn't have more robust controls over it's central transport like that. There's only so much you can do with a complicated tempo map... and so much you CAN'T. How am I supposed to make my Prince albums without varispeed?
=========== The Fog People =========== Intel i7-4790 16GB RAM ASUS Z97 Roland OctaCapture Win10/64 SONAR Platinum 64-bit billions VSTs, some of which work
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DaneStewart
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RE: Varispeed
2008/12/04 12:57:06
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ORIGINAL: ...wicked Does digital vari-speed work the same way as tape though? (program agnostic) I wouldn't think it would "sound" the same, but I reckon I could be wrong. On the AKAI hard-disk recorders it sounds EXACTLY the same.
To thine own self be true. ~TheDane
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j boy
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RE: Varispeed
2008/12/04 13:10:06
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Fame... fame... fame... fame... fame... fame... fame... fame What's your name, what's your name?
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Funkybot
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RE: Varispeed
2008/12/04 13:14:50
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ORIGINAL: evansmalley It's easy. Can't believe Sonar can't do it when a bare-bones elementary app like Reaper does it front and center on the main page. That's why I reluctantly bought Reaper. HTH- Ev Evan, I know you're new to Reaper, but it is NOT a "bare-bones elementary app" in any way shape or form. Reaper's a completely full blown professional quality audio sequencer whose MIDI capabilities have already matured immensely and are still growing at an extremely rapid pace. In fact, Reaper might out-spec Pro Tools at this point. The thing with Reaper is things just work differently. If you're not used to working without tools, you may think features are missing, but just about every action you'd ever need is already there, you just have to find and bind them. Now I'm not a big Reaper fan personally because I like tools, hate keybindings, and don't have the time to learn a new sequencer since I know Sonar so well, but again, it's not a "beginners" sequencer by any means. I mean, just look at Billy Buck. He used to post here all the time and now he's over in the Reaper forums. And Sonar absolutely needs a Varispeed option a la Reaper. Again, vocal harmonys sound cool when you knock everything down a 4th and sing over that, you can do the In My Life Beatles piano trick, correct pitch issues, etc. It's too important a feature for Sonar not to have. I was really hoping that Varispeed was going to make it's way into S8, but alas...
post edited by Funkybot - 2008/12/04 13:17:31
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papa2004
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RE: Varispeed
2008/12/04 14:03:50
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Again, vocal harmonys sound cool when you knock everything down a 4th and sing over that, you can do the In My Life Beatles piano trick, correct pitch issues, etc. Great example...The "harpischord" solo on "In My Life" was actually a piano track recorded at half-speed...Sir George (Martin) once stated that even the most accomplished musician would have difficulties playing that part precisely on a real instrument in real time... What's become glaringly obvious in this thread is that many users can't differentiate between the use of pitch change and vari-speed...The two are somewhat related (in that altering the speed of the analog recording/playback device will change the pitch of the material) but they serve two different purposes.
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Vovchik
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RE: Varispeed
2008/12/04 14:22:51
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ORIGINAL: evansmalley hey Vovchik- You COULD maybe do it that way... but reassigning 30+ tracks one at a time is WAAAAYYY more trouble than just one global slider. That's why guys who record lots of acoustic instruments really miss a simple vari-speed knob. You don't have to reassign tracks one at a time. Just Press Ctrl+A, go to Tracks > Properties > Outputs. I have this menu point keybound to Shift+O, so the reassigning pocess is realy fast. Select track(s), press Shift+O, spin mouse wheel till you see the right output, press Enter.
If It Ain't Broken, Don't Fix It
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Vovchik
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RE: Varispeed
2008/12/04 14:26:52
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Believe it or not, many instrumentalists / vocalists / performers, while they may not be golden-eared engineers or audiophiles, actually have very sensitive ears, and notice when an effect is being applied to audio. Good musicians and vocalists are trained to listen, and they *do* hear when something "isn't quite right." You can get away with varispeed much more easily than with a pitch shift plugin, without setting off the performer's "messing-with-the-audio alarm."
It depends on how far you need to transpose original audio. Instruments like flute, accordion, old Rhodes and such usualy require less than +/- 50 cents, so it's not gonna sound too bad.
If It Ain't Broken, Don't Fix It
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space_cowboy
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RE: Varispeed
2008/12/04 14:28:29
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Can we get natural tape compression? Oh and tape hiss too please? And wow and flutter? Is there a digital print-through effect?
Some people call me Maurice SPLAT Pro lifetime, ADK 6 core 3.6Ghz with 32 GB RAM, SSD 1TB system drive, 3 3TB regular drives for samples, recordings and misc. Behringer X Touch, UAD Apollo Quad. 2 UAD2 Quads PCI (i think - inside the box whatever that is), Console 1. More guitars (40??) and synths (hard and soft) than talent. Zendrum!!!
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evansmalley
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RE: Varispeed
2008/12/04 15:14:39
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Just Press Ctrl+A, go to Tracks > Properties > Outputs. I have this menu point keybound to Shift+O, so the reassigning pocess is realy fast. Select track(s), press Shift+O, spin mouse wheel till you see the right output, press Enter. Dear Vovchik- that's the coolest tip ever! Can't believe I totally missed it. Great, great suggestion. Thank you much. I will for sure try to use this way of doing it. I FAR prefer tracking in Sonar to Reaper! Thanks much- Ev
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RTGraham
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RE: Varispeed
2008/12/04 15:21:29
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ORIGINAL: Vovchik Believe it or not, many instrumentalists / vocalists / performers, while they may not be golden-eared engineers or audiophiles, actually have very sensitive ears, and notice when an effect is being applied to audio. Good musicians and vocalists are trained to listen, and they *do* hear when something "isn't quite right." You can get away with varispeed much more easily than with a pitch shift plugin, without setting off the performer's "messing-with-the-audio alarm."
It depends on how far you need to transpose original audio. Instruments like flute, accordion, old Rhodes and such usualy require less than +/- 50 cents, so it's not gonna sound too bad. Fair enough; I'll have to give it a try again the next time the situation arises. ORIGINAL: papa2004 Great example...The "harpischord" solo on "In My Life" was actually a piano track recorded at half-speed...Sir George (Martin) once stated that even the most accomplished musician would have difficulties playing that part precisely on a real instrument in real time... Actually, it's not *that* difficult to play in real time, even taking into account the left-hand counter-line. But it wouldn't sound the same on an actual harpsichord, or on an un-effected piano.
post edited by RTGraham - 2008/12/04 15:22:44
~~~~~~~~~~ Russell T. Graham Keys, Vocals, Songwriting, Production russell DOT graham AT rtgproductions DOT com www DOT myspace DOT com SLASH russelltgraham
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Oaf_Topik
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RE: Varispeed
2008/12/04 15:47:26
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Oh and tape hiss too please? And wow and flutter? I can't live without the Hissmaster 3000, and I Can't Believe It's Not Flutter, VST. These will give you that 4 Track Porta Studio Sound that everyone is after.
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j boy
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RE: Varispeed
2008/12/04 15:53:32
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ORIGINAL: papa2004 The "harpischord" solo on "In My Life" was actually a piano track recorded at half-speed... And George's guitar solo in "Hard Day's Night" was recorded at half speed and sped up.
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DaneStewart
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RE: Varispeed
2008/12/04 15:56:29
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An option we had in the 60's should AT LEAST be available in 2008.
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krizrox
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RE: Varispeed
2008/12/04 16:33:05
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My response won't help you unless you have Samplitude Pro or are willing to buy it (or know someone who already has it) but this type of thing is as simple as can be in SamPro. They provide something called Elastic Audio which allows you to do pretty much anything you can imagine to an audio clip in terms of pitch, time stretching, etc. To do the varispeed thing they give you a simple pencil tool and you literally draw a freeform line (or you can draw straight lines too) representing the pitch speed (up or down). You can go all the way down to a crawl to a complete stop. You can draw pitch lines (sort of like drawing a volume curve except for pitch) like a squiggly line up and down and then listen as the pitch of the audio follows the line. It's more fun than you can shake a stick at and so easy to use it's embarrasing. And the sound quality is pretty much like you'd expect to hear with tape - no artifacts related to digital calculations. Smooth as butter. Ever heard that Kiss song Black Diamond where it takes like two minutes for the song to end as it winds down to nothiness? Wanna sound like the HAL 9000 computer singing "Daisy"? Easy to do in SamPro. Why every DAW on the face of the planet doesn't offer something like this is odd if you stop and think about it. Who needs V-Vocal or Autotune when you can simply do all this within their WAV editor. Anyway, it's just a comment to let you know there is an easy way to accomplish this. Buying Samplitude might be well beyond your budget but there are cross-grade options. hint hint
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fcarosone
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RE: Varispeed
2008/12/04 17:08:10
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ORIGINAL: RTGraham The whole point of pitch shifters like MPEX is to make it possible to *independently* adjust time and pitch; the nature of analog tape was that time and pitch were interrelated. All of the digital tools that are now at our disposal (MPEX, Serato Time&Pitch, V-Vocal, Auto-Tune, Melodyne, etc., etc., etc.) have been programmed with one common goal: to break the natural physical acoustic link between speed and pitch. I like this scientific explanation! I had the varispeed knob on my 4-track Portastudio when 18, I had Serato Pitch'n'Time back in 2000, under a Mac Protools: Pitch'n'time could "break the laws" , means: a- changing pitch without modifying time; b- varying time without altering pitch, but had also a : c- "varispeed mode" with a slider that could do the tape effect. I've always thought this was the easiest job of all (in the digital realm this is a simple resampling, 0% artifacts guarantee, but, like the vinyl if you adjust pitch a little up, it will go faster and viceversa), so I think if you all keep on bothering Cakewalk about doing it, they might really DO it!! ![](http://forum.cakewalk.com/upfiles/smiley/s4.gif) and, yes, it would be nice! Just as RTGraham writes, you all just keep in mind that tools like Audiosnap, ctrl-drag clip edit or V-vocal really do much more.. f
"Below the realm of the musical note lies the realm of microsound. Sound coalesce, evaporate, and mutate into other sounds" (Curtis Roads) http://www.carosone.eu/
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noguru
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RE: Varispeed
2008/12/04 17:13:36
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the tascam porta-one, 4 track cassette, had a speed control. in the center it was normal cassette speed, you could speed up or slow down from there. you could do crazy effects with the control, or you could record on tape at double speed to increase sound quality. ...until your belts wore out.
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...wicked
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RE: Varispeed
2008/12/04 17:20:45
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ORIGINAL: evansmalley Just Press Ctrl+A, go to Tracks > Properties > Outputs. I have this menu point keybound to Shift+O, so the reassigning pocess is realy fast. Select track(s), press Shift+O, spin mouse wheel till you see the right output, press Enter. that's the coolest tip ever! Can't believe I totally missed it. Ditto, I never even thought to bind that option. W00t!
=========== The Fog People =========== Intel i7-4790 16GB RAM ASUS Z97 Roland OctaCapture Win10/64 SONAR Platinum 64-bit billions VSTs, some of which work
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papa2004
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RE: Varispeed
2008/12/04 17:22:46
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My response won't help you unless you have Samplitude Pro or are willing to buy it (or know someone who already has it) but this type of thing is as simple as can be in SamPro. That doesn't really address the issue of having (or not having) a vari-speed option in SONAR, does it? If your recommendation is a viable option I'm more than willing to try it...If there's a demo available I will download it...If it really reacts to variable speed options (as an analog tape deck woud) I will gladly purchase the product... [EDIT]: You people just don't get it...This isn't a plugin issue...It's a transport issue that existed in analog studios for years...I don't want to treat a track with a plugin...I want the option to change transport speeds...Why is this so difficult to understand?
post edited by papa2004 - 2008/12/04 17:48:41
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papa2004
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RE: Varispeed
2008/12/04 17:35:25
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ORIGINAL: space_cowboy Can we get natural tape compression? "Natural"? No way. Oh and tape hiss too please? And wow and flutter? Is there a digital print-through effect? Plenty of plugins that are "tape based" allow the user to introduce tape "hiss"...Wow & Flutter is a different concept that was based on servo-controlled motors...I'm not even going to go into the "print-through effect" because I know that YOU know it's not possible...
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RTGraham
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RE: Varispeed
2008/12/04 17:42:55
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ORIGINAL: papa2004 ...I'm not even going to go into the "print-through effect" because I know that YOU know it's not possible... Weeeeelllllll, you coooooould do something similar like this: 1) Create a copy of your project, for "print-through" purposes 2) Chop off some audio at the beginning of the song, to make room for the "pre-print" 3) Move all of the audio about a second-and-a-half to two seconds earlier 4) Bounce all of the audio to consolidated clips 5) AudioSnap-Enable all of the audio clips, with AutoStretch enabled (to follow tempo changes) 6) Add a gradual tempo increase to the tempo view (a continuous but gentle ramp from beginning to end) to simulate the diminishing radius of a reel of tape as it unwinds 7) Bounce everything to clips, to use the offline AudioSnap rendering algorithms 8) Apply a tape saturation simulation plugin (like the Voxengo or the Cakewalk) to taste 9) Balance the tracks as desired, keeping in mind that true print-through would be fairly quiet 10) Bounce to stereo, if desired, and import back into the original project How's *THAT* for less-simple-than-the-analog-equivalent ?!?!?!?!?
post edited by RTGraham - 2008/12/04 17:44:32
~~~~~~~~~~ Russell T. Graham Keys, Vocals, Songwriting, Production russell DOT graham AT rtgproductions DOT com www DOT myspace DOT com SLASH russelltgraham
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