Hey CW, just go ahead and make this a plugin. No sense in making us do all the dubbs and such after you figure out the algo. The next big thing should be multi-layer SW that reproduces (not emulates) what our hears want to hear. Be the leader. Come on, if it was the cure for AIDS you could get it done in 6 months. Spend the R&D and make this a commodity too.

Thanks in advance,

RSB

Have Sonar chase a tape recorder and varispeed the recorder. You might not like the results but you'll be amazed.

Danny

The satire is delicious

ORIGINAL: papa2004

My response won't help you unless you have Samplitude Pro or are willing to buy it (or know someone who already has it) but this type of thing is as simple as can be in SamPro.

That doesn't really address the issue of having (or not having) a vari-speed option in SONAR, does it? If your recommendation is a viable option I'm more than willing to try it...If there's a demo available I will download it...If it really reacts to variable speed options (as an analog tape deck woud) I will gladly purchase the product...

[EDIT]: You people just don't get it...This isn't a plugin issue...It's a transport issue that existed in analog studios for years...I don't want to treat a track with a plugin...I want the option to change transport speeds...Why is this so difficult to understand?

I believe Magix provides a downloadable demo version of Samplitude but unknown if the test version has all the features of the full-blown program or not. Try it and see. Since Sonar doesn't support such a feature, and it seems unlikely that such a feature will end up in Sonar this year, or even next year, other options such as SamP or Reaper or whatever appear to be your only option for the forseeable future. Samplitudes Elastic Audio function isn't the same as a simple knob you twist while the multi-track arangement is playing in real time though. I remember an old version of a program called TripleDAT (Creamware's original recording program) had something like that but I have never seen anything like it in any other DAW. If Reaper does that (and it's automate-able) then that would seem like the best solution (even better than Samplitudes Elastic Audio feature which only works on a single stereo clip). If you wanted to vari-speed a bunch of trax in Samplitude, I think you would have to bounce them to a single stereo track first. If you're desperate for Sonar to incorporate such a feature then submit a feature request. I'm sure if enough people request it they'll listen.

And btw - this type of variable-speed thing we're talking about had limits even in analog tape studios. Many tape decks have some form of pitch control but being able to slow the tape down to nothingness is the result of some sort external control that took some work or experimentation to set up.

I'm currently on 6PE with no plans on upgrading anytime soon,but if varispeed was a feature in a new version I wouldn't hesitate to upgrade.

I just finished reading a book on the Beatles recording sessions and I had been pondering how to do this in SONAR.

Back when I was learning to play guitar I would slow/speed up records on my turntable till I was in tune with them.

Does LOGIC do VariSpeed?
My buddy's got Logic...maybe I could use his rig for a while.

Anyone know?

ORIGINAL: papa2004
WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO BE ABLE TO DO:

1) Record a few BGV tracks in real time...

2) Slow down the record/playback by a certain percentage and overdub additional BGV tracks. Because I'm hearing a slower playback (with the resulting "pitch" changes) I'm also hearing the vibrato & breath patterns of the original tracks. Timing isn't a concern because the newly recorded audio was done in sync with the rest of the slowed down tracks...

3) When I playback the recording at "normal" speed, the overdubbed BGV's have a slightly different timbre (while retaining the proper vibrato & breath phrasing)...

I'd use the RXP player in Sonar to do this. The results aren't immediate, but can be created in Sonar.

Recording:

• After step 1, bounce the master to a clip.
  
• Insert a new RXP player instance with audio and midi tracks.
  
• Load the bounced master clip into RXP.
  
• Create a single, very long midi note to trigger the RXP player.
  
• Mute/archive all other tracks.
  
• Change the tune (fine) or transpose (coarse) in RXP.
  
• Record your new vocals against the RXP playback (which is slowed down).

Playback:

• Add new RXP instances and associated audio and midi tracks and create the necessary midi notes to trigger them (should be able to just copy/paste from the other RXP clip).
  
• Load up the newly recorded slow vocals in the RXP instances.
  
• Change the tune/transpose in RXP to be the opposite of what you used to record them.
  
• Mute/archive the RXP instance created for recording
  
• Un-mute/un-archive all the original tracks

Everything should be sync-ed up and be on pitch so add FX and mix as needed. If you want to get rid of all the RXP stuff then just bounce the outputs to tracks.

Yes, we want the world and we want it now...

Cakewalk wrote the RXP player so they already have the code to tune/transpose clips on-the-fly by adjusting clip playback speed as you are asking. There are other considerations that are preventing the implementation I would suspect.

Kind of a detail question: how would Sonar store the clips that are recorded when VSO is enabled? If they store it at the project sample rate (say 44.1 kHz) then the clip would play back slow when VSO gets disabled (project at normal speed). In order to playback in sync Sonar would have to remember the VSO settings and "undo" them in real-time during playback. Or they'd have to resample the recorded slower clip up to regular speed so that it would play back in sync. But that kind of goes against Sonar's non-destructive ideology. Anyway, just thinking out loud here...

ORIGINAL: altima_boy_2001

ORIGINAL: papa2004
WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO BE ABLE TO DO:

1) Record a few BGV tracks in real time...

2) Slow down the record/playback by a certain percentage and overdub additional BGV tracks. Because I'm hearing a slower playback (with the resulting "pitch" changes) I'm also hearing the vibrato & breath patterns of the original tracks. Timing isn't a concern because the newly recorded audio was done in sync with the rest of the slowed down tracks...

3) When I playback the recording at "normal" speed, the overdubbed BGV's have a slightly different timbre (while retaining the proper vibrato & breath phrasing)...

I'd use the RXP player in Sonar to do this. The results aren't immediate, but can be created in Sonar.

Recording:

• After step 1, bounce the master to a clip.
  
• Insert a new RXP player instance with audio and midi tracks.
  
• Load the bounced master clip into RXP.
  
• Create a single, very long midi note to trigger the RXP player.
  
• Mute/archive all other tracks.
  
• Change the tune (fine) or transpose (coarse) in RXP.
  
• Record your new vocals against the RXP playback (which is slowed down).

Playback:

• Add new RXP instances and associated audio and midi tracks and create the necessary midi notes to trigger them (should be able to just copy/paste from the other RXP clip).
  
• Load up the newly recorded slow vocals in the RXP instances.
  
• Change the tune/transpose in RXP to be the opposite of what you used to record them.
  
• Mute/archive the RXP instance created for recording
  
• Un-mute/un-archive all the original tracks

Everything should be sync-ed up and be on pitch so add FX and mix as needed. If you want to get rid of all the RXP stuff then just bounce the outputs to tracks.

Exactly. But you can use any sample player, not necessarily RXP. Drop Zone, Dimension or Rapture (including light versions) will do the job. The whole process looks much more complicated "on paper" than in reality. Bounce submix, drag it into DropZone window, insert long note, retune, freeze. You're ready to record. After recording, unfreeze DZ, bounce insrtument takes to clip, drag into the same DZ, retune in opposite direction, bounce to track.

hey Larry-

Yeah that's exactly what Reaper does- just like a tape machine, exactly. And it also exports at the pitch/speed you have the vari-speed at.

For all you's guys talkin' about this thing- you should just go ahead and download Reaper. It's free to try. If you right click on the varispeed slider it gives you options for coarser/finer amount.

It's awesome. Too bad it's such a clunky program compared to Sonar...

ORIGINAL: papa2004

I don't believe anyone has suggested that the vari-speed option should offer a "slow the tape down to nothingness" feature...Those of us who have used a variety of analog tape decks (in my case Studer, Scully, Ampex, 3M, Otari, MCI) are well aware of the + or - percentages that we could use with the (somewhat erroneously mislabeled) "pitch control" knob on the deck...

WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO BE ABLE TO DO:

1) Record a few BGV tracks in real time...

2) Slow down the record/playback by a certain percentage and overdub additional BGV tracks. Because I'm hearing a slower playback (with the resulting "pitch" changes) I'm also hearing the vibrato & breath patterns of the original tracks. Timing isn't a concern because the newly recorded audio was done in sync with the rest of the slowed down tracks...

3) When I playback the recording at "normal" speed, the overdubbed BGV's have a slightly different timbre (while retaining the proper vibrato & breath phrasing)...
- - - - - - - - - - - - -

Does anyone understand this concept?

Absolutely understood. We did it all the time with bgv for stunning sound and btw, how could Richard Harris have ever hit the high notes in MacArthur Park without slowing down the machine ?

But again, how different is this approach to simply singing (or playing) alternate unison parts and then pitch shifting the other tracks up or down a few cents? Doesn't that serve the same purpose? Sonar's simple little pitchshift tool works fine in this regard. As long as you're not going more than a few cents up or down, it works fine. Usually, those tracks are sort of buried in the mix anyway right?

for those who just- can't- seem- to- get- this- (from previous posts, to review...!)

For me, vari-speed has never been to get an effect of formant change- just to get stuff in tune! Sometimes to help a vocalist get up to a high note... if you work with lots of real acoustic instruments- trust me- you want to tune the project TO the instrument! Ever try tuning a vintage accordian on the spot? Or a real Fender Rhodes? (review note: only if you are too poor to buy the real, original, sampler- clearly the superior option! [ha!])

When you were tracking any instrument, you could easily tune your song to it. Often, for example, if your guitar player would end up at the end of a song being a little sharp on the last chord- rather than have him re-tune his guitar, you could just tune the song up a few cents. Or if an electric piano, Hammond organ, Grand Piano, tubular bell, harmonica, ethnic drum, etc, etc, etc., was a little sharp/flat, it took about 10 seconds to get the SONG in tune to IT.

for one thing, tuned drums! bells! whatever!...

pitch your machine way up, to a harmonious pitch to a drum and record a track in tune... when you put it back down in regular speed, the drum is in great tune, but a low low low deep kick ass boom... so many other things, too... especially just playing odd acoustic instruments in tune with a song without having to tune them.

tune your SONG (!) to ANY sound or ANY noise, record it and bam... it's in tune!

OK that's enough for me! sorry to bother all y'all... more... sorry-
Ev

ORIGINAL: evansmalley

But again, how different is this approach to simply singing (or playing) alternate unison parts and then pitch shifting the other tracks up or down a few cents? Doesn't that serve the same purpose? Sonar's simple little pitchshift tool works fine in this regard. As long as you're not going more than a few cents up or down, it works fine. Usually, those tracks are sort of buried in the mix anyway right?

for those who just- can't- seem- to- get- this- (from previous posts, to review...!)

For me, vari-speed has never been to get an effect of formant change- just to get stuff in tune! Sometimes to help a vocalist get up to a high note... if you work with lots of real acoustic instruments- trust me- you want to tune the project TO the instrument! Ever try tuning a vintage accordian on the spot? Or a real Fender Rhodes? (review note: only if you are too poor to buy the real, original, sampler- clearly the superior option! [ha!])

When you were tracking any instrument, you could easily tune your song to it. Often, for example, if your guitar player would end up at the end of a song being a little sharp on the last chord- rather than have him re-tune his guitar, you could just tune the song up a few cents. Or if an electric piano, Hammond organ, Grand Piano, tubular bell, harmonica, ethnic drum, etc, etc, etc., was a little sharp/flat, it took about 10 seconds to get the SONG in tune to IT.

for one thing, tuned drums! bells! whatever!...

pitch your machine way up, to a harmonious pitch to a drum and record a track in tune... when you put it back down in regular speed, the drum is in great tune, but a low low low deep kick ass boom... so many other things, too... especially just playing odd acoustic instruments in tune with a song without having to tune them.

tune your SONG (!) to ANY sound or ANY noise, record it and bam... it's in tune!

OK that's enough for me! sorry to bother all y'all... more... sorry-
Ev

Hi ya Evan,

Ahh. varispeed 101 lesson. Yep, song was recorded with the melody hitting a high "A" and wouldn't you know that on the day the vocal needed to be done the vocalist was maxed out at Ab. I found that about a whole step was just about the max for lead vocal. (think Chipmonks). And certainly for overdub instruments that can't easily be tuned but are out of tune with the master .

Danny

ORIGINAL: papa2004

I totally get it, and have used variable speed recording on analog tape decks for BGV fattening, and to produce wild flanging with very deep textures, among other things. The variable speed control in Reaper works just like the variable speed control I had on my Tascam half inch and Ampex one inch multi-track recorders

Thank you, Glenn...

I will try the Reaper option this afternoon (I've already downloaded and installed the demo)...I sincerely hope it works as you say it does...

Here's a cheezy cellphone video illustrating it.

http://members.cox.net/spambaconandspam/Vari-speed.avi

ORIGINAL: j boy

Might be possible to approximate the effect with dfx Scrubby (it's free): http://destroyfx.smartelectronix.com/

Scrubby looks like it is deliberately programmed to be too random to truly approximate a global varispeed control; I haven't downloaded it to try it, but based on the description and documentation, it appears to want to zoom around in time, speeding up and slowing down audio as it gets there, as opposed to just reaching the *end* of the song at a different rate, in linear fashion. It *might* be possible to set such a large seek range that the only "scrub" would be with the song's end as a destination; but even then, according to the documentation, it would take so long to fill Scrubby's playback buffer that you'd have silence for several seconds (possibly as long as half the song) before hearing the scrubbed audio.

Even if it worked, there would have to be a way to perform a reverse - and accurate - process on the audio recorded during Scrubby's "pseudo-varispeed" playback, once the overdub was done.

Good suggestion, though. I'm not shooting it down just to be contrary - perhaps this part of the discussion will spark another creative idea from yourself or someone else. Personally, I think that if SONAR has to handle some kind of master clock value (either from the computer's internal clock if set to MIDI sync, or from an audio interface or clock generator wordclock input if set to audio sync), then it should be possible to perform a simple percentage multiplication of that clock value before passing it to the audio engine. Obviously I don't know much specifically about what's under the hood in the program; but if I can get the same effect from feeding SONAR a "slower" or "faster" version of 48k from my Aardsync, then it should be possible to do some math *inside* SONAR to approximate the same clock properties.