MQ
Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
- Total Posts : 127
- Joined: 2006/09/28 09:37:06
- Location: Sweden
- Status: offline
Varispeed
Hi,
Is there anyone who has an idea on how to mimic the old varispeed technic in Sonar 6?
In the good/bad old days you could set the varispeed on the tape-machine to +- X percent when you record the second/third vocal take, and at mixtime you reset it back to zero. Some technician use a different varispeed on each take so to make extremly dense backvoices f.ex. (think ABBA)
This gave beatiful textures to the composit voices. (and instruments for that matter)
(I'm not talking about a wavery chorus effect)
I couldnt really find a way of doing this in Sonar, anybody who have an idea?
Regards MQ
|
daverich
Max Output Level: -41 dBFS
- Total Posts : 3418
- Joined: 2003/11/06 05:59:00
- Location: south west uk
- Status: offline
RE: Varispeed
2006/11/03 06:08:32
(permalink)
hmm
that would be very tricky. Not sure it's possible really without some pitch-shifting.
Kind regards
Dave Rich
|
Vovchik
Max Output Level: -74 dBFS
- Total Posts : 847
- Joined: 2005/01/24 00:47:59
- Location: Staten Island, NY
- Status: offline
RE: Varispeed
2006/11/03 07:25:46
(permalink)
Clone instrumental track and apply Cakewalk Time/Pitch Stretch effect (destructively). You have to hold SHIFT and move the point along diagonal line. After vocal recording apply same effect to vocals, but this time move the point in opposite direction.
|
mr. moon
Max Output Level: -60 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1515
- Joined: 2003/11/10 00:23:35
- Status: offline
RE: Varispeed
2007/02/18 10:50:53
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: MQ
Hi,
Is there anyone who has an idea on how to mimic the old varispeed technic in Sonar 6?
In the good/bad old days you could set the varispeed on the tape-machine to +- X percent when you record the second/third vocal take, and at mixtime you reset it back to zero. Some technician use a different varispeed on each take so to make extremly dense backvoices f.ex. (think ABBA)
This gave beatiful textures to the composit voices. (and instruments for that matter)
(I'm not talking about a wavery chorus effect)
I couldnt really find a way of doing this in Sonar, anybody who have an idea?
Regards MQ
I decided to bump this topic, as this would be a great feature for SONAR to have if it already doesn't. If SONAR were to incorporate this feature, then I wouldn't have to rely on other programs to do it, which is what I have to do currently. -mr moon
Intel Core 2 QUAD Q6600 4 GB 800MHz DDR2 RME FireFace 800 Windows 64 Pro "...Think outside the box as you mix within!" -mrmoon
|
buckybeen
Max Output Level: -84 dBFS
- Total Posts : 335
- Joined: 2006/12/30 11:05:05
- Location: Encinitas, CA
- Status: offline
RE: Varispeed
2007/02/18 11:06:45
(permalink)
I found the Varispeed feature on my old VS880 very handy. On demo tracks for female vocalists, I could sqeak out the notes I couldn't quite hit. Wasn't perfect, but they would get the idea of the tune. I would definitely welcome a feature like that in Sonar.
"I think you've got something there. I'll wait outside until you clean it up."
|
LAW
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
- Total Posts : 50
- Joined: 2005/09/15 13:26:09
- Status: offline
RE: Varispeed
2007/02/18 11:36:36
(permalink)
This question was anwered here: http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=968747 Or was it? Anyway, I guess there are some guys on this board with degrees, and ZERO common sense. Read this thread and watch their peni shrink. People who are assets do not need to tell everyone so. Everybody just knows. By the way, analog vari-speed sounded great. Just listen to a Chipmonks record.
post edited by LAW - 2007/02/18 11:59:31
|
newfuturevintage
Max Output Level: -57 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1848
- Joined: 2004/11/04 20:35:09
- Location: o'land, ca
- Status: offline
RE: Varispeed
2007/02/18 13:30:32
(permalink)
some hardware will allow this. some rme stuff for one. Anything that will let you adjust the sample rate freely and independently of Sonar will behave like analog varispeed. But, no it's not natively available in Sonar to my knowledge.
My inner child is an angry drunk.
|
evansmalley
Max Output Level: -76 dBFS
- Total Posts : 715
- Joined: 2005/06/07 08:25:15
- Location: Kansas City, MO, USA
- Status: offline
RE: Varispeed
2007/02/19 06:24:22
(permalink)
I have been told by the guys at the gearslutz forum that Reaper actually HAS a simple, internal VSO! I'll let you know if it's easy to export/import back and forth to do the VSO'ing! Ev www.evanandnature.com
|
MQ
Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
- Total Posts : 127
- Joined: 2006/09/28 09:37:06
- Location: Sweden
- Status: offline
RE: Varispeed
2007/02/19 08:08:36
(permalink)
Vovchik and Law,
No, pitchshift is not the same as varispeed even if you could get an "similar" effect.
Also the thread Law refer to is not varispeed per se. The guy is asking for an octav of pitchshift.
Real varispeed was f.ex. to sing the vocals and then press/turn the varispeed control up or down (+-2% to +-6%) and then sing the vocals again, either dubbing or harmonies. If you needed a greater effect then just move the varispeed control in an other direction and sing again. (and again and again, remember ELO ?)
Working with samplers and pitchshifters are more timeconsuming than just turn a knob (as in real varispeed) and at least pitchshifters have (small) artifacts as do the Audiosnap (could really destroy the sound).
So, a varispeed knob would be preferable. Just engage it, set the % and sing. (Change the % and sing again)
A real workflow helper. (This is the key to really fat harmonies f.ex.)
MQ
|
Bob Damiano [Cakewalk]
Test Me
- Total Posts : 693
- Joined: 2003/11/04 11:06:12
- Location: Boston, MA
- Status: offline
RE: Varispeed
2007/02/19 08:39:03
(permalink)
When I want this, here is what i do: 1. Bounce your song down to one track. 2. Clone that a few times 3. Pitch shift each one slightly differently 4. Solo them one at a time and record your new vocal listening to the pitch shifted (keep track of what you were listening to when you record each take) 5. Now go back and un-pitch shift each vocal by the amount the the track you were monitoring was shifted when you sang. ORIGINAL: MQ
Hi,
Is there anyone who has an idea on how to mimic the old varispeed technic in Sonar 6?
In the good/bad old days you could set the varispeed on the tape-machine to +- X percent when you record the second/third vocal take, and at mixtime you reset it back to zero. Some technician use a different varispeed on each take so to make extremly dense backvoices f.ex. (think ABBA)
This gave beatiful textures to the composit voices. (and instruments for that matter)
(I'm not talking about a wavery chorus effect)
I couldnt really find a way of doing this in Sonar, anybody who have an idea?
Regards MQ
|
evansmalley
Max Output Level: -76 dBFS
- Total Posts : 715
- Joined: 2005/06/07 08:25:15
- Location: Kansas City, MO, USA
- Status: offline
RE: Varispeed
2007/02/19 15:30:13
(permalink)
Hey Bob! Thanks so much for everything you all at Cakewalk have done for us! I just downloaded the Reaper demo and right there on the master out is a vari-speed! It evens auto-maps to the scroll wheel, and if you press "ctrl" while you scroll, it fine-tunes it. You ought to check out the demo, because I bet you'd find the vari-speed interesting. It is a big missing part of my Sonar (which I ain't EVEN thinking about replacing with this here Reaper thing!- no comparison!) But there's several things they're doing- enabling side-chaining, keying, keyed ducking, gating, etc that (I bet as an old analog guy to a DAW designer) you'd find interesting and provocative. I bet you could make an attractive utility in Sonar 7 (ha!) with "Virtual Tape Machine 1.0.1."! You know... enable, disable on the fly, adjust tape "saturation", bias adjust (for buyers with no clue) tape speed and type modellers! (ha!) Don't forget to use the term "Grand Master" somewhere... and please... vari-speed! Just another idea... people love to buy stuff that sounds like that! I do miss a quality, global, one slider vari-speed... thanks- Ev www.evanandnature.com
|
MQ
Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
- Total Posts : 127
- Joined: 2006/09/28 09:37:06
- Location: Sweden
- Status: offline
RE: Varispeed
2007/02/21 02:17:15
(permalink)
Bob,
Thanks for your input.
Your workaround is ok, although it is far more cumbersome than a varispeed control.
Instead of your five step procedure, a real varispeed control just take a spin of a knob. (one step)
Also, there is a differens in soundquality when using pitchshifters that's not occure in varispeed.
MQ
|
Marah Mag
Max Output Level: -71 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1000
- Joined: 2008/07/12 18:27:12
- Status: offline
RE: Varispeed
2008/07/14 01:46:16
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: MQ
Your workaround is ok, although it is far more cumbersome than a varispeed control.
Also, there is a differens in soundquality when using pitchshifters that's not occure in varispeed.
I find that workaround so cumbersome and inconvenient that I'm unlikely to try it. (I'm lazy, I admit it.) And you're right about the difference in sound quality. But even setting aside sound quality (which may or may not be significant), slowing down (or speeding up) the original performance results in more than a change of pitch. Depending on the degree of change, the articulation of the performance being recorded at the altered speed may be quite different, and that will affect the character of the performance when it's played back at normal speed. The breathing and the attack and release of notes will also be changed, among other things. So it's not just about temporarilly shifting pitch of the tracks you're performing to as a means of producing the final performance, but permanently shifting the characteristics of the final performance as an end in itself. And that requires both ptich and time shifting, in tandem. Realtime analog-type varispeed in Sonar would totally kill, especially if coupled with the ability to NOT change the pitch when changing speed, and to change only the pitch without changing the speed, as is available in Reaper.
|
daveny5
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 16934
- Joined: 2003/11/06 09:54:36
- Location: North Carolina
- Status: offline
RE: Varispeed
2008/07/14 08:43:19
(permalink)
Dave Computer: Intel i7, ASROCK H170M, 16GB/5TB+, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Sonar Platinum, TASCAM US-16x08, Cakewalk UM-3G MIDI I/F Instruments: SL-880 Keyboard controller, Korg 05R/W, Korg N1R, KORG Wavestation EX Axes: Fender Stratocaster, Line6 Variax 300, Ovation Acoustic, Takamine Nylon Acoustic, Behringer GX212 amp, Shure SM-58 mic, Rode NT1 condenser mic. Outboard: Mackie 1402-VLZ mixer, TC Helicon VoiceLive 2, Digitech Vocalist WS EX, PODXTLive, various stompboxes and stuff. Controllers: Korg nanoKONTROL, Wacom Bamboo Touchpad
|
Tom F
Max Output Level: -48 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2749
- Joined: 2007/07/08 05:56:12
- Location: Vienna (the one in Europe)
- Status: offline
RE: Varispeed
2008/07/14 09:29:23
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: Marah Mag
ORIGINAL: MQ
Your workaround is ok, although it is far more cumbersome than a varispeed control.
Also, there is a differens in soundquality when using pitchshifters that's not occure in varispeed.
I find that workaround so cumbersome and inconvenient that I'm unlikely to try it. (I'm lazy, I admit it.) And you're right about the difference in sound quality.
But even setting aside sound quality (which may or may not be significant), slowing down (or speeding up) the original performance results in more than a change of pitch.
Depending on the degree of change, the articulation of the performance being recorded at the altered speed may be quite different, and that will affect the character of the performance when it's played back at normal speed. The breathing and the attack and release of notes will also be changed, among other things.
So it's not just about temporarilly shifting pitch of the tracks you're performing to as a means of producing the final performance, but permanently shifting the characteristics of the final performance as an end in itself. And that requires both ptich and time shifting, in tandem.
Realtime analog-type varispeed in Sonar would totally kill, especially if coupled with the ability to NOT change the pitch when changing speed, and to change only the pitch without changing the speed, as is available in Reaper.
maybe i got something wrong but why should there be a quality problem? . i guess he is just suggesting to take the pitch shifted signal as reference when you record the new take...later you do not use any pitchshifted audio in the project... actuaklly it also doesnt sound very complicated too - just insert the pitch shifter and vary the pitch during the takes...not much harder than to turn a speedwheel ...or not?? cheers ps: this is all about making a "natural" chorus isnt it??? 
|
NYSR
Max Output Level: -60 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1550
- Joined: 2004/06/23 11:13:30
- Location: Binghamton, NY USA
- Status: offline
RE: Varispeed
2008/07/14 09:50:48
(permalink)
Analog varispeed is always very smooth. Digital varispeed can be smooth but most often is full of artifacts. The artifacts come from trying to maintain a consistent sample rate.
A good digital varispeed that imitates the functionality of analog varispeed would never alter the audio data, rather it would adjust the apparent sample rate. I have no idea if that is even possible. In order to keep quality high, the sample rate should be high to start with. For example, an 88.2 sample rate could be mathematically manipulated to be anywhere between 78.2 to 98.2.
For those unfamiliar with varispeed, it is not JUST an audio effect. When set above normal speed to record and returned to normal at playback it allows a voice to naturally sound calmer and older. When recording slowed down it allows an adult to more easily imitate a kids voice, or sing in a key higher than they naturally can. When using it for multiple vocals, it allows the vocals to more resemble different voices rather than multiple takes of the same voice. That creates a more natural sounding choir effect.
Varispeed and tape saturation are the two effects I miss most from the analog days. I'll have to check out Reaper's varispeed.
Cakewalk customer since Apprentice version 1, PreSonus 16.4.2 ai, 3.5 gHz i7
|
rodreb
Max Output Level: -72 dBFS
- Total Posts : 915
- Joined: 2003/11/06 14:59:42
- Location: Ohio
- Status: offline
RE: Varispeed
2008/07/14 10:06:53
(permalink)
YES! YES! YES!
Please, PLEASE bring real analog type vari-speed to SONAR!!
That would be worth ten times more than a bunch more plug-ins. Hell, if freakin' Reaper can do it, certainly Cakewalk can.
Please, make it happen.
|
lasaxman
Max Output Level: -85 dBFS
- Total Posts : 273
- Joined: 2006/02/21 12:38:02
- Location: New Orleans, LA
- Status: offline
RE: Varispeed
2008/07/14 10:27:37
(permalink)
I've tried just down-tuning a guitar chord one time, and the result was totally screwed up. I don't think a whole mix would come out any better. Good thought though.... ORIGINAL: daveny5
Use V-Vocal.
Jason ASUS P7P55D-E, Intel 5 2.8 Ghz, 8 GB RAM, 2 UAD-2 Solos (version 5.8), Focusrite Sapphire Pro 24DSP, Dual 22'' LCD, M-Audio Axiom 61, Cascade Fathead, Universal Audio Twin Finity 710 Preamp, AlphaTrack, Sonar PE 8.53
|
papa2004
Max Output Level: -10.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 6475
- Joined: 2005/03/23 12:40:47
- Location: Southeastern U.S.
- Status: offline
RE: Varispeed
2008/07/14 10:41:52
(permalink)
I (as I learned years--like almost 40 years-- ago from other engineers/producers) used to use VSO frequently on BGV's. I would record the first pass at normal speed. Then I would slow the tape slightly and record another pass. Sometimes I would slow the tape just a tad more and record another pass. When all of the tracks were played back at normal speed, the resulting effect (due to the timbre changes in the BGV's that recorded at slower speeds) was an added "sheen" or "emphasis" to the mixed tracks. Best of all, because they were recorded in "real-time" at varying speeds the tracks retained the proper phrasing, breathing, attacks & cutoffs. The properly done the effect was "subtle" but one could tell the difference between that technique vs. simply doubling or using a chorus/delay effect. I've given my "thumbs-up" to the idea in SONAR for a long time. Hopefully the Cake Bakers will find a way to implement it! 
|
...wicked
Max Output Level: -1.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 7360
- Joined: 2003/12/18 01:00:56
- Location: Seattle
- Status: offline
RE: Varispeed
2008/07/14 12:10:21
(permalink)
Have to say I'd be interested in this too.
The "do it in post" argument is not invalid, so I give my nod to the credence of it, but there are benefits to doing it "analog style", least of which is for the recording artist, so they can hear the change and sing (or play) to it.
=========== The Fog People =========== Intel i7-4790 16GB RAM ASUS Z97 Roland OctaCapture Win10/64 SONAR Platinum 64-bit billions VSTs, some of which work
|
evansmalley
Max Output Level: -76 dBFS
- Total Posts : 715
- Joined: 2005/06/07 08:25:15
- Location: Kansas City, MO, USA
- Status: offline
RE: Varispeed
2008/07/14 12:13:44
(permalink)
there's tons of other cool stuff you can do with global varispeed too...
for one thing, tuned drums! bells! whatever!...
pitch your machine way up, to a harmonious pitch to a drum and record a track in tune... when you put it back down in regular speed, the drum is in great tune, but a low low low deep kick ass boom... so many other things, too... especially just playing odd acoustic instruments in tune with a song without having to tune them.
tune your song to a sound or a noise, record it and bam... sonority!
it hurts me to remember all the cool stuff we used to do
|
UnderTow
Max Output Level: -37 dBFS
- Total Posts : 3848
- Joined: 2004/01/06 12:13:49
- Status: offline
RE: Varispeed
2008/07/14 13:34:55
(permalink)
Another vote in favour of varispeed!  UnderTow
|
Moe2
Max Output Level: -86 dBFS
- Total Posts : 228
- Joined: 2008/06/29 21:23:57
- Status: offline
RE: Varispeed
2008/07/14 13:40:08
(permalink)
Varispeed would be very cool. It's one of the things I miss from the analog days.
|
montezuma
Max Output Level: -50 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2520
- Joined: 2004/10/07 03:44:28
- Location: Australia
- Status: offline
RE: Varispeed
2008/12/03 23:41:23
(permalink)
One of the main uses of varispeed would be to slightly speed up the tempo of the song right? That's what The Beatles often did. I heard Paul McArtney say that they were addicted to doing just that on their earlier songs. A lot of people in this thread sound like they use it for pitch adjustment. Cakewalk: Guitar Tracks Pro 2 had varispeed. It would speed up your track but not change the pitch. That's what I'd like to have.
|
Marah Mag
Max Output Level: -71 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1000
- Joined: 2008/07/12 18:27:12
- Status: offline
RE: Varispeed
2008/12/03 23:50:24
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: montezuma
A lot of people in this thread sound like they use it for pitch adjustment. Cakewalk: Guitar Tracks Pro 2 had varispeed. It would speed up your track but not change the pitch. That's what I'd like to have.
With digital, you can do speed (tempo) shifts with or without pitch shift, just as you can do pitch shift with or without speed shifts, or shift both, but still independent of each other; tempo and pitch aren't locked together, physically, by the medium. Digital has no real medium. Reaper has a really good implementation of varispeed/pitch shift. You can shift on a project-wide basis. You can also shift on a per-clip basis.
|
Oaf_Topik
Max Output Level: -54 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2105
- Joined: 2007/12/07 17:11:26
- Status: offline
RE: Varispeed
2008/12/03 23:56:30
(permalink)
speed up your track but not change the pitch. That's what I'd like to have.
The MPEX Time/Pitch that comes with Sonar will do that.
|
montezuma
Max Output Level: -50 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2520
- Joined: 2004/10/07 03:44:28
- Location: Australia
- Status: offline
RE: Varispeed
2008/12/03 23:58:19
(permalink)
So why do so many Sonar users request varispeed?
|
Middleman
Max Output Level: -31.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 4397
- Joined: 2003/12/04 00:58:50
- Location: Orange County, CA
- Status: offline
RE: Varispeed
2008/12/04 00:34:46
(permalink)
You can play a slower guitar solo and when you take it back to normal speed, its a ripping solo.
You can record background vocals at a lower and slower key when you can't really hit a high note.
|
montezuma
Max Output Level: -50 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2520
- Joined: 2004/10/07 03:44:28
- Location: Australia
- Status: offline
RE: Varispeed
2008/12/04 01:05:16
(permalink)
I mean if it's in Sonar as MPEX Time/Pitch, why do lots of people on this forum still request 'varispeed'? If it exists as MPEX, wouldn't everyone know that and just tell people to put down their glasses whenever they say that they want varispeed? anyway, it doesn't matter
|
Oaf_Topik
Max Output Level: -54 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2105
- Joined: 2007/12/07 17:11:26
- Status: offline
RE: Varispeed
2008/12/04 01:10:46
(permalink)
It's not the same thing. MPEX works great for what you said before, speeding a track without changing pitch, but varispeed is different. On an analog tape machine you could slow down the song, which would change the pitch, so you could do some cool things with singing and playing guitar.
|