I am content with the features of X2; I was content with the features of 8.5 and I prefer SONAR to the other DAWs that I have tried. I just don't want to have to pay for a bunch of new features that I don't need just to get some old bugs fixed, even if they are bugs that I myself rarely, if ever encounter. Cakewalk admits there are old bugs that need fixing. The existing bugs should be fixed and released as a free update and then charge to upgrade to a new version that has new features. It would be nice to know whether or not we will be forced to pay an upgrade fee to get any of those bugs fixed. However, I won't pressure Roland/Cakewalk about it, I will just wait to see what they do and then make the necessary decisions regarding how I will spend my money.

Keni

Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk]

mike_mccue
 
"FWIW, this kind of speculation has been happening for over a decade."
 
Yes, very much so. Each year we have waited only to learn that we are going to have to pay for the bug fixes.
 
Indeed, there was a claim by Cakewalk's CTO that X1 featured fixes for 10 year old bugs in it.
 
I don't need to speculate, I paid for 10 upgrades and I got some bugs fixed by being patient.
 
When does X3 come out?

There's more to every release than just some bug fixes. Narrowing it down to just that is pretty misleading and unfair. All new versions of products have fixes for old things... that's not exactly unique to SONAR. There was a lot of other work and tons of new features that went into the last 10 versions. Surely you can't ignore that?

 
Wow! Ryan too!
 
Thanks for chiming in Ryan... I guess something must have just "broke" allowing the two of you some time to talk with us...
 
I have always been pleased with Cakewalk's relationship with the users and all the many extras "you" have always supplied with giving us more than we ask for most of the time... Very pleasing even when much of it is not useful to me. Sonar has come a long way and I look forward to my future with you guys with great relish.
 
I know I'm frequently harsh in some of my attitudes. But over the years I've found that many of these things I stand up about get resolved eventually, so my staying on it seems to be working! ;-)
 
So, now onto the future!
 
Again, thanks for joining in the chat here...
 
Keni
 

I wouldn't say your harsh keni.
I know you haven't been happy with the x series too much but for what its worth, you've explained yourself very clearly, in a productive way and I agree with you on many things.
you and beepster are two people I admire very much, you have a positive way of communicating your issues.

great list stickman, thanks for that.
nice to revisit some of the new release, so cool features weve enjoyed over the years.

chuckebaby
I wouldn't say your harsh keni.I know you haven't been happy with the x series too much but for what its worth, you've explained yourself very clearly, in a productive way and I agree with you on many things.you and beepster are two people I admire very much, you have a positive way of communicating your issues.

Thanks chuckebaby... I do my best to be sincere but I recognize that I get a bit vociferous at times! ;-)

You're always so well focused on getting the job done and sharing your knowledge. I'm always amazed that you stay so alm about issues...

I have always had a lot of faith in the Cakewalk team and still do over many years and many personnel changes. I like to believe it now has a life of it's own!

...and I've also found that it takes a bit of work to bring many issues to the surface and if we all simply grin and bear it, Cakewalk doesn't know of the issue... The more immediate it is to core workflow, the more immediate changes are needed... Who's workflow? Always a good question, but ther are obviously things that essentially everyone uses to varying extent...

Here's to a great software and team of developers/users... I sure want this to continue to bed a part of my life as it has been from the start!

Keni

With all this talk about X2B, as a new (active) user, I assumed that X2a must have been:
 
a) some time in the distant past; and
b) a pile of crap
 
I just went back to the announcement.  That was only 6 freaking months ago, people, and it was loaded with enhancements as well as bug fixes.
 
You guys don't know how good you have it.  Many software products get a lot worse treatment than that.  One of the realities of software development is that complexity forces larger and larger test cycles.  It is one thing to put out a simple website or mobile app and call it bug free -- or to put out rapid patches if bugs are reported.  That maintenance model is not sustainable as the project complexity increases.  And I would say SONAR is one of the most complex programs in any software category by now.  With something like that, it really is not wise to slop out a patch a day.  That approach will inevitably result in a maintenance nightmare.
 
While this "woe is me" thread was laboring along, I did a small Sonar project to continue up the learning curve.  It was an accompaniment for a set of etudes.  I had the piano track on MIDI already.  I added French horn, flute, and string bass parts, did some nice effects, used the tempo tool to add rubato, rit and fermatas where indicated in the score, automated the mix to match the printed dynamics, and then did an editing cycle in the MIDI editor to clean up some conflicts with the solo voice.  Everything worked perfectly and I couldn't be happier with the finished product.  My guess is my experience is more typical than the stories on this thread.
 
The only bug I encountered is that at one point, the tempo tool stopped allowing me to make changes on every beat.  So I did have to shut down Sonar and start it up again to clear that.  And that is typical of the other bugs I have experienced.  None of them have been very severe in my experience.

cityrat
>>yeah, the silence is starting to remind me of the silence before the death of Project 5
 
That was my feeling as well.  I just recently bought X2 after having been away from it since P5 death. 
 
While I have been working well with Sonar X2, and I like the software and what it can do for me -  I don't like the silence from management.  It is eerily similar to the complete news blackout before the death of P5. 

Why would Roland/Cakewalk update the forum software just before killing Sonar?

I like Sonar for what it is, an affordable easy to use DAW. It has it's glitches, even with the minimal things I do. If I was running a business, I would be on Pro tools. I wouldn't take chances with any other system. Maybe some here think that's dumb, or will list me a million problems pro tools has had. But it's still the studio standard for a reason.

wetdentist
yeah, the silence is starting to remind me of the silence before the death of Project 5 & NI's Kore

this

One thing..are the bakers busy porting X2 to Macs now?

I don't believe that it is a communication issue per se as much as it is an effective communication issue.

Roland management should be able to spill the beans if an update is coming for X2a. Magaement makes those decisions all the time. I have been part of the software support and testing field for many years. When the peasants get angry, you try to do some damage control which is what Ryan and Andrew were doing yesterday and part of today so far.

IF management would just allow the indians to say if there is gonna be an update or not, that would quench this fire. I believe that SONAR could be a great product. With X2, they took a couple steps back with my workflow. I would like to see some update that may address what I have already reported. For the most part, Twelve Tone was a stand up company. Unfortunately those days and most of those people are gone. Roland rules the roost now and there have been significant changes.
 
If Greg was to come in here and give a pep talk, THAT would be cool. I don't know that he is even part of the goings on anymore. :)
 
I am not angry that I paid for a producct that does not work well with my workflow after the 1st update. I am just a bit irritated.

As someone who has 20+ years experience in IT mgmt for a major global company - maybe I have a different expectation and perspective. 
 
I agree communication is a good thing, however there are likely multiple factors contributing to when CW issues communications:
- Maybe they've not yet decided whether to include bug fixes within a new major release, or just issue a stability patch? 
- Maybe there are financial aspects to making such a decision which could be tied to other parts of Roland's revenue streams.
- Maybe there are liability issues as well - e.g. if they comment either way and wind up changing their approach, does that expose them legally?  These are realities within any corporation. 
 
Bottom line - CW has clearly outlined very politely and multiple times that they're not yet ready to comment on the question of issuing another patch for X2 just yet.  It's also clear from above that CW understands people are looking for this information as soon as possible.  I appreciate you don't like that decision, but how you chose to react is up to you.  

I think a few of the long time users are amused that people are worried about cakewalk and the fact they aren't holding worried customer's hands.  That Cakewalk won't tell them and their competitors what Cake's next step is.  Because we've seen this all before.  In the golden days of yore Brandon etc. used to be on the forums all the time telling everyone exactly what was in the next update or version, kernal-like. 
 
It never happened.  Cake has never gotten specific about timelines other than soon.  They have never revealed what X2b/3 was like, or what was in SONAR 5.  Never will.  brandon and Seth were great and did spend time on the forum at TIMEs.  Most of the time they didn't, having a day job.  And we never found out what was coming until it got here, all wrapped up like a Christmas tree.  I suppose they have a timeline for releases, and I suppose these change w/ the Beta testing.  That is why they don't release timelines or prospecti, because they don't know.
 
For the record, I would like an update of X2.  It is glitchy, esp. w/ some of my 32 bit effects.  But then, iLok just released a complete redo and it is screwing up my softube bundle.  Much worse than most of Cake's sins.  X2 is a little glitchy, but nothing that stops me from working.  I just have to come up w/ clever work arounds and make sure to Save.
 
But I ain't worried about them and some secret plan to drain your bank accounts w/ faulty products.  They just spent money w/ Overloud to bring out a new PC effect rack.  Doesn't sound like Roland (who has been around longer than many on this forum) plans to dump Cakewalk
 
So chill dudes.  Make your views known here on the forum - just realize Cake doesn't use this forum for market research or tech support.  They do stop by in their free time to see what us users are saying, but it is usually as users themselves.
 
@

The Cakewalk folks are in a no-win situation.
 
When they release something too soon, and it has bugs, folks here in the forum bash them incessantly over that.
 
If they instead take the time to either add complex new functionality, OR they take time to do more testing to reduce the insertion of additional bugs, then folks in the forum freak out and bash them incessantly over that.
 
It's almost like they are in the position of being referees, in that they are GUARANTEED that a whole bunch of folks are going to be dissatisfied with any call they make.
 
And, has been pointed out before, for a GOOD many years, this cycle has been repeating itself, so wise up folks, it is likely how it will remain.  They are OBVIOUSLY deep in the middle of whatever they are working on, and whenever they feel like they have the set of things that will make their internal deadlines, as well as honoring any partnership contractual timelines and restrictions, at THAT point they will have the collection of items that will constitute the next release of their software.
 
They have clearly pointed out an awareness of everybody's feelings on all of this, and they will at the same time do what they do, in THEIR time frame, with THEIR collection of items to be included in the release.
 
So, GET OVER IT, or don't.
 
If the step sequencer feature request I submitted long ago keeps getting bumped because they choose to work on things like Pro Channel, or Take Lanes, or any number of features that affect WAY more folks than me, I support that, because it makes good business sense for them to do that.  Do I still hope that someday that change will filter into a release?  Sure, I do.  But I am quite happy that Pro Channel exists instead of them providing a small alteration to something that is really only an annoyance for me.
 
I want them to fix show stoppers above all else.  I believe they have a pretty good track record of doing just that.  We saw that with the multiple sub-releases for X1, and we saw a quick fix come out to deal with show stoppers when X2 first appeared.
 
A lot of the bugs that are out there are more annoyances than anything, and I am sure that as they have ALWAYS prioritized their work efforts for the past 20 years or so, that they are continuing to address things that they feel affect the most folks beneficially - fixing the things that are MOST annoying or truly are real problems where there are no work arounds.  As I noted before, the X2a release fixed more than 250 bugs, in addition to adding new functionality and cleaning some things up a bit.
 
Lastly, time and time again, in the course of the countless hours I spend trying to help folks to the best of my ability, I see a large percentage of the issues out there from inexperience,  not reading installation instructions, obsolete hardware that is long past when it should have been expected to work with newer operating systems and DAW software - where drivers are years and years old - and yet folks think that it is Cakewalk's fault, or people have issues caused many times by mostly older 32-bit plugins (and some 64-bit ones too, but mostly 32-bit ones) running on 64-bit systems.  I believe that there are lots of folks about there who have X2a installed and working fine with 32-bit plugins ON 32-BIT WINDOWS.
 
I have Native Instruments software that just will NOT run in Windows 8, and may not have run in Windows 7 (can't remember).  I LOVED their Pro-53 software, but it just does NOT work anymore on current OS versions.  If I REALLY needed to hang on to it, I could build a machine that runs XP Pro or Windows 7 (if it still worked there, again cannot remember), and it would work just fine.  Instead, I have chosen to have MY system run 64-bit Windows 8, with 64-bit Sonar X2a, and ONLY 64-bit plugins, with the exception of the MinimogueVA and the ARP2600VA, which I love dearly - and they happen to work just fine.  And guess what?  I NEVER have had a crash with Sonar X2a.
 
Bottom line, there ARE configurations that run crash free, and there are known things that can cause problems.  We have choices that we have made and continue to make, and those choices affect the stability of the systems we are trying to work with.  When things CAN be adjusted or worked around, COOL, make the changes and keep on trucking.  
 
WE make the choices as to how we set things up, and WE have to live with the consequences, both good and bad.  That's life.  THEY will continue to do their best at developing a balance of new features, enhancing existing features, and trying to eliminate bugs in a top-down prioritization, releasing each version of their product when it meets THEIR corporate planning and delivery schedule needs.
 
The end.
 
Bob Bone