konradh


gtgarner, What is your point? Sonar already has a staff view. Are you asking to remove it? Reaper is popular and I'm glad some people like it. Most orchestrators, composers, and arrangers need a staff view and will be not satisfied drawing dots on a PRV. All this getting stuck on pointless arguments is really clogging up this forum.

What?
 
Have you read any of my posts?  I just made a list of my 2 concerns about 4 or 5 posts ago.   THATS IT.
 
I'm not trying to make a point. I just thought that the reaper page was interesting. 
 
I'm not arguing.  If you read my response about 3 posts ago - I'm agreeing with folks.  How is that an argument? 
 
Feel free to read the forum or not.  I'll feel free to post or not.

trimph1

gtgarner


Well,

I'm amazed at how many people think that Cakewalk can just devote tons of R&D into something for free.

Well maybe I'm not amazed. People these days seem to only be worried about what they want - no matter what it costs someone else.

Maybe the reason that people are doing this is because you keep bringing up the cost factor.  This appears as if you are saying you don't need it so why do others need it?
Look, I get that rewriting code is costing $$$$...to me that is not an issue. These guys who do this..are in this business understand this to be part of the cost of doing business. And, if it be that to should go up then fine..PT10 did it..
All that is being asked for is that notation work..that is all..no one asked for an entirely new part here. 
You did agree with me about the cost factor being not that important if people are willing to pay for it..and I see others are saying they are willing to as well..so why the issue here?

I own PT10 and thats the reason I'm saying this. It crashed the DAW.
 
I know that people don't care about Cakewalk. They only care about what Cakewalk can do for them.  I get it. 
 
I don't have an issue. I'm merely responding to posts. I'm not bringing up issues. If you don't post - I won't respond.  
 
LASTLY.  CAKEWALK indicated that an entire re-vamp is required to do what people want in the staff view.  There are about 5 other threads where they said that.
 
No issues for me.  Does a post indicate an issue?

I haven't read all the posts in this thread but I just want to say this: I too feel more confident with the staff view than the piano roll. Cakewalk's continuing neglect of the Staff view, will in the future be one of the deciding factors for me leaving Sonar. I took the bait last year buying Notion as a substitute, but the rewire solution just isn't good enough .....

gtgarner, My apologies, I did not go back and read all your posts on this topic: I was responding only to your last post. Sorry if I misunderstood or misstated your position, but I was just going off that single post and may have interpreted it incorrectly. Rather than trying to debate, I was questioning what all the debate is about. Peace.

Elffin


Interesting points - I suppose we will never know how many people have left Cakewalk products because of lack of score view development.

But I do wonder at the number of people who have not purchased Sonar since its score view hasnt been revised/changed over a decade..

Just think how many copies of Sonar variants could be sold in schools workdwide. I know that a number of schools have been ploughing cash into Protools ever since their incorperation of sibelius code. 

Not to mention that w/ the advent of low-cost hardware and software over the past decade, at least the middle income communities have schoold with fully stocked media labs w/ full MIDI, DAW, etc. setups. Maybe Apple had that market cornered anyway...

dfp123


I'm not looking to leave Sonar, but I haven't upgraded since 8.5, primarily because of the lack of staff view fixes/development. I grabbed Notion during one of the Sonar upgrade deals, and now it looks like development is halted on that. I hope Cakewalk could add a few fixes/updates soon.

It's really sad about Notion.  It's a great app but immature.  Cakewalks needs to buy Notion.

gtgarner

ChrisBG

Again, Its pure speculation that folks have left unless you know of someone that has left. I could say that tons of people left Sonar because you can't change the colors in X1, but I don't know of anyone who has.....it would be total speculation on my part.

What an odd comparison...Lol. Thanks though. I do actually know people who have switched off Sonar because of the lack of staff tool development. It would be the same with any other feature, but since notation is apparently only important to a minority, it's cool to just forget about it and tell people who use it they have a problem and that they should pay to get it developed.

I don't understand how it would take a total revamp and time and money in R&D to fix a triplet tool and let it display on the staff view. Or look at the other features, the staff view initially in X1 had no easily accessable note icons. A third party developer managed to write a hack with his own toolbar and put it back. Didn't take him years of R&D.

Again, I don't feel a sense of entitlement. I respect companies want to make as much money as possible, and that's cool - I'm all for that. I love that. I'm just a little dissapointed that I won't be continuing on with Sonar. The staff view is my #1 tool of use. It is important to me. Maybe you don't understand that because as you said, you'd be happy to have the staff view gone, so why you would be so vocal about it I have no idea. But anyway. That's all it is.

Sorry to see ya go.  I'm not sure why Cakewalk said it would take a total re-vamp, but they did.
 
2 reasons I am vocal about it and I've listed them many times before:
 
    1. I don't want to pay for a feature in a DAW that I don't use.
    2. I don't want a feature that I use to possibly damage the DAW that I use.
 
Both of which has happened in other DAWs. I own 3 Digidesign $50K+ ICONS (ProTools) and they PT10 has added some piddly sideline features that shut down over $200K of equipment in my studio. These features had nothing at all to do with the ICONS "AT ALL".  This has happend 3 times since PT10 came out. I didn't even have the oppportunity to "NOT INSTALL" these options. They made them part of the DAW.  Avid even acknowledged on their forum that it was a bone-head move on their part.
 
All I can say is that I better not have an issue with this Pro-Channel (that I don't use) that Sonar forced into their code. If so I'll be like you - I'm outta here. 
All I want is a DAW that works. Thats it.  If I want something else, then I'm more than willing to shell out the bucks for it.

I don't understand this logic at all. SONAR has a Staff View, and it has had a staff view for many years. Like it or not, it is a feature that is part of the program you use, whether you think it belongs in a "DAW" or not. That's like saying they shouldn't have video support because it's a Digital AUDIO Workstation. Don't take the acronym so literally.
 
If you think Cakewalk should ditch the staff view and devote their resources to the audio engine etc, or you think it should be an optional add-on, then okay. Everyone is welcome to their own opinion. But do you really think changing their entire sales model and wiping out huge chunks of code from their core program to make it modular, is somehow more practical and stable than upgrading the existing platform?
 
Be realistic; the Staff View IS a part of Sonar, and is here to stay. Many people use it, as evidenced by the posts in this forum. I paid $400 for this program, and part of that $400 went toward the staff view, like it or not. It is a feature I PAID FOR, just like the ProChannel, the Piano Roll, Skylight, and the Sonitus bundle. If I pay for something, I want it to work properly, and if it doesn't, I have a right to complain.
 
I'm not sure where you got the idea that we want Cakewalk to work for free. We already paid them for the staff view. We just don't like the fact that it has been neglected year after year.

Savagery

gtgarner

ChrisBG

Again, Its pure speculation that folks have left unless you know of someone that has left. I could say that tons of people left Sonar because you can't change the colors in X1, but I don't know of anyone who has.....it would be total speculation on my part.

What an odd comparison...Lol. Thanks though. I do actually know people who have switched off Sonar because of the lack of staff tool development. It would be the same with any other feature, but since notation is apparently only important to a minority, it's cool to just forget about it and tell people who use it they have a problem and that they should pay to get it developed.

I don't understand how it would take a total revamp and time and money in R&D to fix a triplet tool and let it display on the staff view. Or look at the other features, the staff view initially in X1 had no easily accessable note icons. A third party developer managed to write a hack with his own toolbar and put it back. Didn't take him years of R&D.

Again, I don't feel a sense of entitlement. I respect companies want to make as much money as possible, and that's cool - I'm all for that. I love that. I'm just a little dissapointed that I won't be continuing on with Sonar. The staff view is my #1 tool of use. It is important to me. Maybe you don't understand that because as you said, you'd be happy to have the staff view gone, so why you would be so vocal about it I have no idea. But anyway. That's all it is.

Sorry to see ya go.  I'm not sure why Cakewalk said it would take a total re-vamp, but they did.
 
2 reasons I am vocal about it and I've listed them many times before:
 
    1. I don't want to pay for a feature in a DAW that I don't use.
    2. I don't want a feature that I use to possibly damage the DAW that I use.
 
Both of which has happened in other DAWs. I own 3 Digidesign $50K+ ICONS (ProTools) and they PT10 has added some piddly sideline features that shut down over $200K of equipment in my studio. These features had nothing at all to do with the ICONS "AT ALL".  This has happend 3 times since PT10 came out. I didn't even have the oppportunity to "NOT INSTALL" these options. They made them part of the DAW.  Avid even acknowledged on their forum that it was a bone-head move on their part.
 
All I can say is that I better not have an issue with this Pro-Channel (that I don't use) that Sonar forced into their code. If so I'll be like you - I'm outta here. 
All I want is a DAW that works. Thats it.  If I want something else, then I'm more than willing to shell out the bucks for it.

I don't understand this logic at all. SONAR has a Staff View, and it has had a staff view for many years. Like it or not, it is a feature that is part of the program you use, whether you think it belongs in a "DAW" or not. That's like saying they shouldn't have video support because it's a Digital AUDIO Workstation. Don't take the acronym so literally.
 
If you think Cakewalk should ditch the staff view and devote their resources to the audio engine etc, or you think it should be an optional add-on, then okay. Everyone is welcome to their own opinion. But do you really think changing their entire sales model and wiping out huge chunks of code from their core program to make it modular, is somehow more practical and stable than upgrading the existing platform?
 
Be realistic; the Staff View IS a part of Sonar, and is here to stay. Many people use it, as evidenced by the posts in this forum. I paid $400 for this program, and part of that $400 went toward the staff view, like it or not. It is a feature I PAID FOR, just like the ProChannel, the Piano Roll, Skylight, and the Sonitus bundle. If I pay for something, I want it to work properly, and if it doesn't, I have a right to complain.
 
I'm not sure where you got the idea that we want Cakewalk to work for free. We already paid them for the staff view. We just don't like the fact that it has been neglected year after year. 

Perfectly put.
+100 for Savagery.

Samplitude has a intelligent simultaneously and syncronised view of pianoroll and staff view, but the UI is terrible.

Cubase has a silly keyeditor(pianoroll)UI, since the distances between B-C and E-F
are wider than the other halftones steps. The different scales looks
absolutely silly. C-major and D-major scales have not the same distances between
scale notes. Expression Map is fantastic.

Sonars UI I like much, it's a pleasure to make music, compose and arrange music.
Pianoroll is "pro"
Staff editor could be better  

The things I like to see as features would make me happy:

http://www.bilder-hochlad...s/h9pf-c-c20a-gif.html  

sorry english is not my  native language

Would it be our top requested feature?

 
One thing this thread has proven is that there is no single "our" or "we".  So you'll never get a single answer to that question - it all depends who you ask.
 
That said, if there never was a staff view then there's a fairly good chance some of those arguing in favor of SV changes might have never been here in the first place...