jsg
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WHY doesn't Cakewalk care about the staff view?
For about 10 years Cakewalk has refused to fix bugs, implement new features and, in general, upgrade the staff view. In fact, it's been downgraded in X1 in regards to the staff view's track pane not being able to change active tracks as in previous versions. I have some guesses as to why they refuse to modernize and deepen this crucial aspect of the program. I could be wrong, but here they are: 1. Cakewalk doesn't realize, or respect, that notation has been a tool that has evolved over the past 1000 years and is one of the stunning artistic achievements of human culture. Perhaps this is arrogance, or the fantasy that computers can replace what notation has been used for. The greatest music on the planet would not exist were it not for the language of notation. There's a reason it spread from the 9th century European monasteries to nearly every country on the planet and why all serious composers use it in some form or another. 2. Cakewalk is primarily interested in marketing to illiterate musicians who don't read or write music and who simply don't know what they don't know about the power of notation in realizing complexity, subtlety and structural development. Perhaps Cakewalk's primary customer base is musical amateurs. 3. Cakewalk is so busy creating yet another EQ, compressor, softsynth, etc. (My God, how many compressors and EQs does one need to create great recordings?) that they simply neglect the core language of music sequencing because they're too busy concocting more and more features, bloating the program rather than focus on repairing what is already implemented. Notation allows a composer to create musical detail in a way that is unmatched by any other method, computer or no computer. Maybe there is another reason, or reasons, that Cakewalk has totally dropped the ball in this area. I'd sure like to know. I wish they would clarify their position on this and explain their strategy regarding this disappointing aspect of the program. I got a call from Cakewalk about 5 years ago asking me to answer a survey about what I'd like to see in future releases concerning specifically the staff view. I was excited because I thought, finally, they're going to do some work on notation. I offered my suggestions, yet none of these have ever been implemented since that time. I really don't have the answer, but I am no longer not looking at other DAWs when I have to upgrade again. Jerry www.jerrygerber.com
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Fog
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Re:WHY doesn't Cakewalk care about the staff view?
2011/12/28 00:49:28
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jsg
For about 10 years Cakewalk has refused to fix bugs, implement new features and, in general, upgrade the staff view. In fact, it's been downgraded in X1 in regards to the staff view's track pane not being able to change active tracks as in previous versions.
I have some guesses as to why they refuse to modernize and deepen this crucial aspect of the program. I could be wrong, but here they are:
1. Cakewalk doesn't realize, or respect, that notation has been a tool that has evolved over the past 1000 years and is one of the stunning artistic achievements of human culture. Perhaps this is arrogance, or the fantasy that computers can replace what notation has been used for. The greatest music on the planet would not exist were it not for the language of notation. There's a reason it spread from the 9th century European monasteries to nearly every country on the planet and why all serious composers use it in some form or another.
2. Cakewalk is primarily interested in marketing to illiterate musicians who don't read or write music and who simply don't know what they don't know about the power of notation in realizing complexity, subtlety and structural development. Perhaps Cakewalk's primary customer base is musical amateurs.
3. Cakewalk is so busy creating yet another EQ, compressor, softsynth, etc. (My God, how many compressors and EQs does one need to create great recordings?) that they simply neglect the core language of music sequencing because they're too busy concocting more and more features, bloating the program rather than focus on repairing what is already implemented. Notation allows a composer to create musical detail in a way that is unmatched by any other method, computer or no computer.
Maybe there is another reason, or reasons, that Cakewalk has totally dropped the ball in this area. I'd sure like to know. I wish they would clarify their position on this and explain their strategy regarding this disappointing aspect of the program.
I got a call from Cakewalk about 5 years ago asking me to answer a survey about what I'd like to see in future releases concerning specifically the staff view. I was excited because I thought, finally, they're going to do some work on notation. I offered my suggestions, yet none of these have ever been implemented since that time.
I really don't have the answer, but I am no longer not looking at other DAWs when I have to upgrade again.
Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com
I find certain comments rather insulting... so you assume people who don't read music are illiterate ? come back to me and chat about it when you go sell as many CD's as Ray Charles for example ( he was self taught as are many others) . I can list loads more who didn't have actual musical training. In some way having no classic training = not having to stick to rules in some cases. a friend is a well known producer , arranges live strings etc. and does that as keyboard player, who does it by ear. if you kept up to date with what people were asking request wise, notation is one thing.. but it's not really that easy to implement as say a "point" update. You could use the notation software rewired IRC.. also
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:WHY doesn't Cakewalk care about the staff view?
2011/12/28 01:20:37
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While I'm all for improving parts of the program whether I personally use it or not, and I understand from others that the staff view is long overdue an overall, the arrogance in some of that post whether intentional or not is breath taking.
In case you haven't smelt the coffee, the line between 'pro' and 'amateur' when it comes to musical ability and technical skill is pretty much non-existent.
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Lanceindastudio
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Re:WHY doesn't Cakewalk care about the staff view?
2011/12/28 01:42:06
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It is because good music makers dont use the staff anymore!
Just kidding... lmao.... i wish it was better so those that want it to be would be happier, really.
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dubdisciple
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Re:WHY doesn't Cakewalk care about the staff view?
2011/12/28 03:22:27
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i guess that begs the question, why do people ask loaded questions that have insulting implications in order to express displeasure instead of simply being direct? No tool is perfect in every area. I'm sure everyone wishes that Sonar did [fill in niche process of choice] better. For every backhanded suggestion you made, there are countless other explanations. Perhaps Cakewalk figures that people that are that serious about notation have other dedicated programs that will likely do a superior job because that is their sole purpose. There are plenty of professional musicians who could care less about notation beyond the basics. I'm not sure where you get the impression that Sonar is pumping out so many EQs; Comnpressors, softsynths etc. The only new synth cakewalk has released in the past couple of years is Z3ta+2 and it's more of a refinement than a new softsynth. Outside of pro channel strip, most cakewalk effects are not new. I guarantee you some VST hound is whining as loudly as you are that cakewalk has not released enough of those for their tastes. Sonar offers a wide range of tools suitable for a wide range of applications. There's always room for improvement, but being belligerent to them and insulting to people who create music differently than you do is a total a-hole move.
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pwal
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Re:WHY doesn't Cakewalk care about the staff view?
2011/12/28 05:20:44
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some people get stressed if their new swiss army knife has the tool-to-remove-stones-from-horses-hooves removed, others just cycle
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:WHY doesn't Cakewalk care about the staff view?
2011/12/28 09:01:19
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"Ray Charles for example ( he was self taught as are many others)."
Mr. Charles learned all about music through both his church experience and his education at the world famous Florida School for the Deaf and the Blind BTW, Louis Braille was a music instructor and so when he invented the Braille system he developed a system for music as well as alpha numeric use. http://www.afb.org/braillebug/music_braille.asp You are quite right, Ray Charles was not illiterate... and it seems a shame that someone would assume that other people assume he was. best regards, mike
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Guitarhacker
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Re:WHY doesn't Cakewalk care about the staff view?
2011/12/28 10:33:49
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I didn't take any of the OP as an insult.
I do not use the PRV choosing instead to use the Staff View. I was taught to read music when I took was forced by my Mom to take piano lessons and then later in school on drums.
It was ALL about reading the musical staff. So to me it is more natural to edit midi from there. I can't make sense of the PRV so I choose not to use it.
While I can look at the staff and recognize many of the notes instantly, I can figure most others in a matter of seconds......my ability to sight read on keys or guitar is non-existent. So, musically speaking.... I guess I'm in the illiterate group mentioned..... but I still would rather see notes on a staff to edit.
As far as the Bakers making the Staff View easier to use in X1.... yeah I agree. They have moved some of the commands to other locations and now it takes extra steps to get it done in Staff View...as opposed to being in the tool bar in Staff View.
My 2 cents
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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gtgarner
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Re:WHY doesn't Cakewalk care about the staff view?
2011/12/28 10:36:05
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Cakewalk, Please don't focus on staff view.
Please continue to focus on the DAW. Espececially since you are a DAW maker.
I vote for leaving the Staff environment to the Staff makers. Thanks Cakewalk for the "little something" (staff view) that you have added on to Sonar though.
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stevec
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Re:WHY doesn't Cakewalk care about the staff view?
2011/12/28 11:31:41
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As a "literate" musician, I still do most of my MIDI editing in the PRV due to its precise control over start times and duration. Particularly for sounds with slow attacks (like strings) where notes must start slightly early - they tend to be pretty ugly in the SV. For layering, sure the SV may be easier to read in some cases. But Theodore Kruger's PRV videos show how the PRV *can* be used for the most intense real-time orchestrations if one is familiar with the PRV...
At the same time though, of course the SV could use many improvements, I don't think many would deny that. But if the OP was on this topic back when the survey was sent out, I'm surprised he doesn't recall CW folks mentioning that the SV was a particularly difficult area to change, code-wise. I don't recall the details, but it was made fairly clear that it wasn't a matter of ignoring it or not thinking it's important, but rather a matter of time and resources. I guess a SV revamp would mean putting aside work in a lot of other areas, things that may be important to a good chunk of the user base. For all we know, changing the SV could be similar to changing the audio engine...
SteveC https://soundcloud.com/steve-cocchi http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=39163 SONAR Platinum x64, Intel Q9300 (2.5Ghz), Asus P5N-D, Win7 x64 SP1, 8GB RAM, 1TB internal + ESATA + USB Backup HDDs, ATI Radeon HD5450 1GB RAM + dual ViewSonic VA2431wm Monitors; Focusrite 18i6 (ASIO); Komplete 9, Melodyne Studio 4, Ozone 7 Advanced, Rapture Pro, GPO5, Valhalla Plate, MJUC comp, MDynamic EQ, lots of other freebie VST plugins, synths and Kontakt libraries
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Fog
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Re:WHY doesn't Cakewalk care about the staff view?
2011/12/28 11:46:01
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mike_mccue
"Ray Charles for example ( he was self taught as are many others)."
Mr. Charles learned all about music through both his church experience and his education at the world famous Florida School for the Deaf and the Blind
BTW, Louis Braille was a music instructor and so when he invented the Braille system he developed a system for music as well as alpha numeric use.
http://www.afb.org/braillebug/music_braille.asp
You are quite right, Ray Charles was not illiterate... and it seems a shame that someone would assume that other people assume he was.
best regards,
mike
you'll find if you bothered to do some research , he was playing without the aid of the school. do me a favour, do not join 2 separate statements together... 1) Ray is an example of a self taught musician. He's the first that came to mind. 2) the OP posted about people being illiterate, because they don't read sheet music.. you seem to infer / imply I was linking the 2... far from it, I don't think that needed any clarifying. I just find it odd the OP has totally missed others asking about notation also, thats what it comes across like. they did a recent poll of people who actually read music or used it to compose.. and about 30% used it... I can't recall the other %'s it was in computer music, probably also on music radar .. but I doubt thats 100% correct, as it's a lot of dance music people who read it.
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relpomiraculous
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Re:WHY doesn't Cakewalk care about the staff view?
2011/12/28 12:24:23
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Audio files do not show up in the Staff View. The Staff View is for midi users, so they can print out their scores if they want to. Beyond that, any serious composer owns a dedicated program for notation like Finale. Obviously the OP is not that serious - or has no money.
Sonar X2 64 bit - Win 7 Pro 64 bit - Intel Core i7 870 - 8 gigs of ram - HP 3130 desktop
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:WHY doesn't Cakewalk care about the staff view?
2011/12/28 12:52:10
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"you'll find if you bothered to do some research , he was playing without the aid of the school." I might already be up to speed. Let's see; Are you referring to all the great stuff he learned at his church or here in Tallahassee with the Adderley brothers at FAMU? Telling the world that Ray Charles was self taught negates the contribution of far too many music teachers who dedicated their lives to teaching music in either a church or a formal school. I felt that a statement like that should not be left to pass without a corrective comment. Here's a good link for you: http://www.swingmusic.net.._Charles_Biography.html "Ray had shown an interest in music since the age of 3, encouraged by a cafe owner who played the piano. At 7, he became a charity student at the state-supported school for the deaf and blind in St. Augustine, Fla. Although he was heartbroken to be leaving home, it was at school where he received a formal musical education and learned to read, write and arrange music in Braille; score for big bands; and play piano, organ, sax, clarinet, and trumpet." all the best, mike
edit out an errant html tag
post edited by mike_mccue - 2011/12/28 13:01:16
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vintagevibe
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Re:WHY doesn't Cakewalk care about the staff view?
2011/12/28 12:54:19
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relpomiraculous
Audio files do not show up in the Staff View. The Staff View is for midi users, so they can print out their scores if they want to. Beyond that, any serious composer owns a dedicated program for notation like Finale. Obviously the OP is not that serious - or has no money.
This is an ignorant statement. I have Sibelius but I need notation on par with all the other major DAWs so I can COMPOSE INSIDE SONAR!
post edited by vintagevibe - 2011/12/28 13:24:17
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gtgarner
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Re:WHY doesn't Cakewalk care about the staff view?
2011/12/28 13:36:07
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vintagevibe
relpomiraculous
Audio files do not show up in the Staff View. The Staff View is for midi users, so they can print out their scores if they want to. Beyond that, any serious composer owns a dedicated program for notation like Finale. Obviously the OP is not that serious - or has no money.
This is an ignorant statement. I have Sibelius but I need notation on par with all the other major DAWs so I can COMPOSE INSIDE SONAR!
What other major DAW has notation?
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Lanceindastudio
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Re:WHY doesn't Cakewalk care about the staff view?
2011/12/28 13:40:16
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i was wondering the same thing...
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pwal
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Re:WHY doesn't Cakewalk care about the staff view?
2011/12/28 14:28:00
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xtrumpeter
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Re:WHY doesn't Cakewalk care about the staff view?
2011/12/28 14:28:51
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I use multiple musical tools and views, whatever fits the job at hand. I would really prefer one tool to handle the bulk of my needs, with specialty tools for special cases. Of course, what I consider "specialty" may be what you consider fundamental, so it won't be possible to please everyone.
I would not want Sonar to be bloated with all the layout capabilities of a dedicated notation program, but Staff view should be able to at least handle basic editing with ease. Currently, all Staff view is useful for IMHO is to look at what you played or edited in other views and see that it matches your sheet music or mental model of the song. Want to change the duration of a note? Get out the calculator or try to remember how many ticks are in a dotted eighth note. Granted, you should be changing duration because it doesn't sound right, not because it doesn't look right, but even then, if you want to lengthen a note to what sounds right without overlapping the next note, good luck in staff view. The basic capabilities are there, but the ease of use is not.
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LpMike75
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Re:WHY doesn't Cakewalk care about the staff view?
2011/12/28 15:24:00
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The phrase 'self taught' is silly. Unless you grow up in total isolation with no outside contact you are always learning from others by way of listening, conversations, examples etc. Kind of what you would do in a formal education, except not as streamlined.
As far as any other DAW having notation, Pro Tools which has a pretty decent score editor if you were looking for examples. Much better than Staff View in Sonar.
I dont see any substition for notation when composing orchestral scores. Theres nothing like seeing what all the parts are doing laid out in front of you. To compose it all by ear requires 1) a super ear and 2) a super memory to remember what the heck everything is doing at any specific point in time. I have an 'ok' ear and a bad memory :(
I used to be a huge proponent of Sonar upgrading their Staff View so I could compose within Sonar, just as people can use the Matrix View to arrange, the Step Sequencer to create drum patterns I wanted to use Staff View to compose but it was too much of a hurdle. PRV is awesome for midi editing but I did not like it for composing.
So...I gave up on Sonar's Staff View, bought Sibelius and never looked back. Even if they 'upgraded' the Staff View it will not be any where near what Sibelius can offer. So I create in Sibelius, export midi to Sonar. Then edit all midi, record audio, mix and add effects in Sonar.
It's obvious they do not want to devote resources to upgrading staff view, might as well find alternatives
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gtgarner
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Re:WHY doesn't Cakewalk care about the staff view?
2011/12/28 15:50:24
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ProTools Score Editor? Come on. You've got to be kidding. There is nothing decent about it.
It has always been the rule of thumb that everyone purchase an external editor for Sonar.
1. Create your scores in Sonar (MIDI)
2. copy your tracks to a ReWire instrument.
3. export to Sibelius.
THats always been the way to go.
Cakewalk - please don't provide Sonar processing resources to the Staff View. Sonar is a DAW not an editor.
Hmmm, I can't remember what DAW stands for........?
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pwal
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Re:WHY doesn't Cakewalk care about the staff view?
2011/12/28 15:52:53
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digital audio workstation, and it refers to the hardware as well as the sw, so sonar is a part of a daw, but not the daw itself
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gtgarner
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Re:WHY doesn't Cakewalk care about the staff view?
2011/12/28 15:57:55
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Yep.
Digital Audio Workstation.
Everything in Sonar should be devoted to supporting Digital Audio.
I don't mind Sonar/Software being called a workstation.
Seeing that Microsoft Word is not a word processor - I'm the processor...lol
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gtgarner
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Re:WHY doesn't Cakewalk care about the staff view?
2011/12/28 16:06:41
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LpMike75
The phrase 'self taught' is silly. Unless you grow up in total isolation with no outside contact you are always learning from others by way of listening, conversations, examples etc. Kind of what you would do in a formal education, except not as streamlined.
I hope you never end up on a desert island mike. Maybe thats where that term came from: He is as dumb as a rock. I didn't need "anyone" to tell me not to touch a hot stove - after the first attempt. lol I was Self taught.
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LpMike75
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Re:WHY doesn't Cakewalk care about the staff view?
2011/12/28 16:51:03
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gtgarner
LpMike75
The phrase 'self taught' is silly. Unless you grow up in total isolation with no outside contact you are always learning from others by way of listening, conversations, examples etc. Kind of what you would do in a formal education, except not as streamlined.
I hope you never end up on a desert island mike. Maybe thats where that term came from:
He is as dumb as a rock.
I didn't need "anyone" to tell me not to touch a hot stove - after the first attempt. lol I was Self taught.
We're talking about music, not basic survival skills. I would presume all of us have grown up listening to music and many of us picked up our instruments trying to emmulate our favorite musicians, songwriters etc. This is learning from others. Many guitar players that are "self taught" actually have spent alot of time reading tablature to learn songs and licks, I propose they are not "self taught", they are self motivated. You and I are not inventing anything new, we are rehashing things we have learned in different orders and with different sounds. Anyhow that is all off topic from Sonar's horrible Staff View.
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SteveGriffiths
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Re:WHY doesn't Cakewalk care about the staff view?
2011/12/28 16:53:35
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vintagevibe
relpomiraculous
Audio files do not show up in the Staff View. The Staff View is for midi users, so they can print out their scores if they want to. Beyond that, any serious composer owns a dedicated program for notation like Finale. Obviously the OP is not that serious - or has no money.
This is an ignorant statement. I have Sibelius but I need notation on par with all the other major DAWs so I can COMPOSE INSIDE SONAR!
I'm sure the folks at Cakewalk will jump right on that right away, inspired as they must surely be by the gargantuan size of your heartfelt plea. Of course, if the staff view used the same scale you would need a 96" monitor for a 2 verse ditty. Cheers... Grif
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garrigus
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Re:WHY doesn't Cakewalk care about the staff view?
2011/12/28 17:15:43
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gtgarner
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Re:WHY doesn't Cakewalk care about the staff view?
2011/12/28 17:27:46
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garrigus
gtgarner
What other major DAW has notation? * Pro Tools
* Cubase
* Logic
* Digital Performer
There may be others, but those are the ones I know of off the top of my head.
Scott
--
Scott R. Garrigus - http://garrigus.com/
* Author of the Cakewalk Sonar and Sony Sound Forge Power book series: http://garrigus.com/?PowerBooks
* Author of the Cakewalk Sonar ProAudioTutor video tutorial series: http://garrigus.com/?ProAudioTutor
* Publisher of the DigiFreq free music technology newsletter: http://digifreq.com/?DigiFreq
* Publisher of the NewTechReview free consumer technology newsletter: http://newtechreview.com/?NewTechReview
Are you serious? Have you seen any of the staff views of the products you listed? They aren't even worth listing as staff views.
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inaheartbeat
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Re:WHY doesn't Cakewalk care about the staff view?
2011/12/28 17:33:05
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I suspect Cakewalk has decided that the best approach is to recognize that there are dedicated programs like Finale and Sibelius that do a far better job than anything they can do and that is why they improved the export function in Producer Extended. I am not sure if the OP has investigated that.
They cannot do everything. They have a limited number of engineers albeit very talented ones. It is their obligation as a company to deploy them in the way that is most effective for their core user base. Staff view is not as important to them as a company as other features. They don't have wav editing capabilities as deep as Sound Forge either but they wisely just allow us to put a hook in to use that tool should we need it. I see this as the same type of situation.
Ken
PC Audio Labs mobile i7 MC, 3.46 Ghz i7 990X, 12 Gb RAM, 3 750 Gb 7200 RPM drives, 3 USB2, 2 USB 3 ports, firewire, Windows 7 64 bit Pro, Sonar X3e Producer 64 bit,
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JeffinOz
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Re:WHY doesn't Cakewalk care about the staff view?
2011/12/28 17:36:01
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I have just had to do an Avid Pro Tools course as part of my teaching for next year. It was on Pro Tools 10. Have any of you had any real experience with this version? I doubt it. I was not a PT fan but I must say I have been a bit converted to say the least after doing this course. (I am confused now!) The PT score editor is excellent (probably the best as of now) and don't forget that Avid owns Sibelius now. And they told us they are about to update the whole shebang so that if you are running Sibelius inside Tools it will all work rather fantastically well. You will be able to play the sounds from Sibelius etc and transfer midi data in real time over to Sibelius etc. This will probably play out to be the ultimate combination, for people like the OP take note!
post edited by JeffinOz - 2011/12/28 19:07:50
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Re:WHY doesn't Cakewalk care about the staff view?
2011/12/28 17:37:04
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gtgarner
garrigus
gtgarner
What other major DAW has notation? * Pro Tools
* Cubase
* Logic
* Digital Performer
There may be others, but those are the ones I know of off the top of my head.
Scott
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Scott R. Garrigus - http://garrigus.com/
* Author of the Cakewalk Sonar and Sony Sound Forge Power book series: http://garrigus.com/?PowerBooks
* Author of the Cakewalk Sonar ProAudioTutor video tutorial series: http://garrigus.com/?ProAudioTutor
* Publisher of the DigiFreq free music technology newsletter: http://digifreq.com/?DigiFreq
* Publisher of the NewTechReview free consumer technology newsletter: http://newtechreview.com/?NewTechReview
Are you serious? Have you seen any of the staff views of the products you listed? They aren't even worth listing as staff views.
I am too lazy to check those respective forums and l0ok for the complaints/praises of the respective staff\notation capabilitiers of said DAWS. Not that it matters in X1s case, but when comparisions are being bandied about. I wonder if the vaulted Studio one has notation?
Green Acres is the place to be I dont twitter, facebook, snapchat, instagram,linkedin,tumble,pinterest,flick, blah blah,lets have an old fashioned conversation!
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