John T
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Re:What does X1c do that 8.5 didn't do... that makes WinXP old and outdated?
2011/08/17 08:50:11
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here are my letters BCT MMusTech, please forward yours (nothing to do with you Brandon)
Mine is T.
http://johntatlockaudio.com/Self-build PC // 16GB RAM // i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz // Nofan 0dB cooler // ASUS P8-Z77 V Pro motherboard // Intel x-25m SSD System Drive // Seagate RAID Array Audio Drive // Windows 10 64 bit // Sonar Platinum (64 bit) // Sonar VS-700 // M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 // KRK RP-6 Monitors // and a bunch of other stuff
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trimph1
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Re:What does X1c do that 8.5 didn't do... that makes WinXP old and outdated?
2011/08/17 08:52:13
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The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:What does X1c do that 8.5 didn't do... that makes WinXP old and outdated?
2011/08/17 08:52:45
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Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]
mike_mccue
FWIW, the Avid website still specifically advises that you strip Win7 down if you want to make best use of their products... and they have some terrific and extremely detailed videos showing how to do it in the "Customer Success" section.
Like what? Turning off Aero and setting your machine to not use Power Management? That's pretty basic stuff that can apply to all machines. They also have tips for OSX that are similar.
Frankly I've never had to turn off Aero and I think it's bad advice unless you have a really crappy video card. The other things like DEP seem to be problems PT has that other DAW's don't suffer from. DAE errors aren't something you'll see with SONAR.
Hi Brandon, There is a context of the thread from which you pulled my quote from... The passage you quoted was a direct response to Johns claim that doing these simple things is hurtful to Win7 Here's the passage I was responding too. mike said "If we strip the OS down to bare bones essentials for a dedicated DAW how much different is what's left of the OS package after we turn most of it off?" John said "That is just the problem with Vista/Win 7- you don't want or need to do that. In fact it will hurt X1 if one did." The intention of my post was to explain that a corporation that sells lot of media processing systems and has a pay for 24/7 service contract program that guarantees customer satisfaction might actually know a few more things about it than any individual poster who just happens to have really liked Vista and Win7. BTW, I like Win7 64 a bunch. I started this thread because I am witnessing that a lot of guys with good running XP systems are casually being advised to jump to Win7 to get SONAR X1 to work well as if that is all that is necessary. I suspect that Win7 will not help those being advised to switch until thy also buy a brand new Win7 style computer. The nice thing about Avids customer success page is that it explains that you have to use Win7. Avid isn't pretending to have both feet in the water on this subject. When is Cakewalk going to launch it's "Customer Success" page? When I got my Pro Tools 9 license last year I discovered that Avid had conceptualized the idea that their goal is to have successful customers. Goodness, that put a great big smile on my face. That's a classy world view. "Customer Success"... Who ever advised Avid to run with that idea earned their money... The term "customer Success" gets right to the heart of the matter and addresses customers concerns in a simple and positive way. It seems like an instant slogan. The very best part is that Avid's "Customer Success" program proactively provides official information. I feel that it is very helpful to learn what the people who design the program suggest as best practice.
It is an effective way to help end users make successful decisions. The easy 24/7 availability of that official info makes it less likely that someone with an issue has to rely on the casually shared opinions of individuals who may or may not have considered the situation in detail. all the best, mike
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Lowline
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Re:What does X1c do that 8.5 didn't do... that makes WinXP old and outdated?
2011/08/17 08:54:24
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Only just realised that BenMMustech is not actually taking the piss! Oh dear.
Anyway, I was forced to upgrade from XP to Win 7 and Win 7 is far superior as you would expect. One of the biggest things for me was that all of my hardware devices integrate perfectly with no problems now, which is more than could be said for XP.
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SteveStrummerUK
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Re:What does X1c do that 8.5 didn't do... that makes WinXP old and outdated?
2011/08/17 08:55:32
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I have a degree...
... of nonchalance.
BTW @ John - IIRC, it was you who did all those tests with SONAR in Vista and concluded it was better to leave Aero on, when everyone else said turn it off. I have to say, I followed your advice (and a few other tips you passed on that you'd gleaned from your studies) and I never had a problem with Vista on my old machine.
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trimph1
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Re:What does X1c do that 8.5 didn't do... that makes WinXP old and outdated?
2011/08/17 08:58:22
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SteveStrummerUK
I have a degree...
... of nonchalance.
BTW @ John - IIRC, it was you who did all those tests with SONAR in Vista and concluded it was better to leave Aero on, when everyone else said turn it off. I have to say, I followed your advice (and a few other tips you passed on that you'd gleaned from your studies) and I never had a problem with Vista on my old machine.
I concur...I am on a Vista Premium based laptop and have also experienced no problems with it...
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
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John T
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Re:What does X1c do that 8.5 didn't do... that makes WinXP old and outdated?
2011/08/17 09:00:48
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The Aero thing is dependent on the system. A system at the bottom end of the minimum requirements may, in some cases, perform better with Aero off. But in most cases, it actually improves performance. Aero moves more of the grunt work of processing graphics and window management to the GPU; XP actually does most of it's graphical spade-work on the CPU.
http://johntatlockaudio.com/Self-build PC // 16GB RAM // i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz // Nofan 0dB cooler // ASUS P8-Z77 V Pro motherboard // Intel x-25m SSD System Drive // Seagate RAID Array Audio Drive // Windows 10 64 bit // Sonar Platinum (64 bit) // Sonar VS-700 // M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 // KRK RP-6 Monitors // and a bunch of other stuff
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:What does X1c do that 8.5 didn't do... that makes WinXP old and outdated?
2011/08/17 09:04:39
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Hey Strummy - you didn't take long to update your signature mate.....
Oh Ruby........
CbB, Platinum, 64 bit throughoutCustom built i7 3930, 32Gb RAM, 2 x 1Tb Internal HDD, 1 x 1TB system SSD (Win 7), 1 x 500Gb system SSD (Win 10), 2 x 1Tb External HDD's, Dual boot Win 7 & Win 10 64 Bit, Saffire Pro 26, ISA One, Adam P11A,
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SteveStrummerUK
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Re:What does X1c do that 8.5 didn't do... that makes WinXP old and outdated?
2011/08/17 09:05:41
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Bristol_Jonesey
Hey Strummy - you didn't take long to update your signature mate.....
Oh Ruby........
She's like putty in my hands now Col 
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:What does X1c do that 8.5 didn't do... that makes WinXP old and outdated?
2011/08/17 09:07:32
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Insanely envious.........
What are you going to track her through?
CbB, Platinum, 64 bit throughoutCustom built i7 3930, 32Gb RAM, 2 x 1Tb Internal HDD, 1 x 1TB system SSD (Win 7), 1 x 500Gb system SSD (Win 10), 2 x 1Tb External HDD's, Dual boot Win 7 & Win 10 64 Bit, Saffire Pro 26, ISA One, Adam P11A,
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SteveStrummerUK
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Re:What does X1c do that 8.5 didn't do... that makes WinXP old and outdated?
2011/08/17 09:12:15
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Bristol_Jonesey
Insanely envious.........
What are you going to track her through?
He he - I keep meaning to lay down a few examples as promised, but it's just so difficult to stop playing her long enough to set up a project in X1 
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John
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Re:What does X1c do that 8.5 didn't do... that makes WinXP old and outdated?
2011/08/17 09:16:05
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Mike what is true is that if one used the advice to stop for example Aero which people were recommending as well as other XP type tweaks to Vista or Win 7 it would hurt the performance of X1. It would also hurt the performance of 8xx too. This is fact. People were and to a some extent are treating Vista/Wn 7 as they did XP. The problem is that XP has nothing in common with the newer Oss. It is an old technology that Vista/Win 7 don't use anymore. A bare bones system of Vista or Win 7 is a very different thing from a bare bones XP system. People read this stuff on here and accept it as gospel without doing any research. Then they do the tweaking to the OS and find they have problems. We are in a different era. We don't have to do nearly as much to our systems as we had to with XP in order to have a functioning DAW. So please stop misrepresenting what I have been saying.
post edited by John - 2011/08/17 09:17:26
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:What does X1c do that 8.5 didn't do... that makes WinXP old and outdated?
2011/08/17 09:46:18
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John, Please explain how I misrepresented what you have been saying. I feel it is rude of you to make a claim that I have misrepresented your post without you offering some explanation. For example; You seem to be saying that we should leave Aero on... and I have pointed out that Avid suggests that one turn Aero off if one thinks it might be causing an issue. Avid never ever suggests that turning Aero off is hurtful to a system. http://youtu.be/vAVykXPrEtU We can cordially disagree, or I can agree to disagree while you continue to be rude. We'll have to at least agree on what we disagree on to disagree successfully. Are you up for it.. or do you just want to play the part of misunderstood victim? regards, mike
post edited by mike_mccue - 2011/08/17 09:49:05
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John
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Re:What does X1c do that 8.5 didn't do... that makes WinXP old and outdated?
2011/08/17 10:02:54
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Mike just read the posts I have made on this subject in the old Sonar forum. Its old news. Look up "Vista and Sonar".
Avid is wrong. Its that simple.
The only reason to turn Aero off is if one has a graphics card that can't handle it. But anyone running those OSs - we must assume that its an up to date system running Vista or Win 7- it will have the specs to run them well.
I know that it has no meaning for you but I did do a lot of research on this. I do know what I am talking about.
CW also recommends Aero. But they are not Avid.
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John T
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Re:What does X1c do that 8.5 didn't do... that makes WinXP old and outdated?
2011/08/17 10:05:24
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Gotta say, I've just had a look at AVID's troubleshooting page on this, and I'm leaning towards them being wrong, too. Or perhaps more fairly, their advice is incomplete.
It's notable that it comes under "troubleshooting", mind you. They don't seem to be giving this out as an across the board recommendation for everyone; rather as something to try if you're getting bad performance.
http://johntatlockaudio.com/Self-build PC // 16GB RAM // i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz // Nofan 0dB cooler // ASUS P8-Z77 V Pro motherboard // Intel x-25m SSD System Drive // Seagate RAID Array Audio Drive // Windows 10 64 bit // Sonar Platinum (64 bit) // Sonar VS-700 // M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 // KRK RP-6 Monitors // and a bunch of other stuff
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jm24
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Re:What does X1c do that 8.5 didn't do... that makes WinXP old and outdated?
2011/08/17 10:05:46
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To be clear:
Does Sonar-X require w7 to function properly?
Does Sonar-X require new CPU instructions to function properly?
I was thinking it would be interesting to know the complete specs of the computer(s) used to compile Sonar-X.
=================
In the beginning was the Amiga. And it was good. And gamers wrote code that directly accessed the hardware. And they were fast. And the 2nd version of the OS was released, and it was good. And the games did not work because the OS did not allow such direct access.
This is similar. Does Sonar-X require w7 so it can access CPU instructions that XP cannot access?
And Mike is writing:
If so, tell us exactly what software and hardware are required to make Sonar-X wonderful.
Aero off does not interfere with w7 performance. But is areo on required for Sonar-X to behave properly?
j
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:What does X1c do that 8.5 didn't do... that makes WinXP old and outdated?
2011/08/17 10:10:41
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John
Mike just read the posts I have made on this subject in the old Sonar forum. Its old news. Look up "Vista and Sonar".
Avid is wrong. Its that simple.
The only reason to turn Aero off is if one has a graphics card that can't handle it. But anyone running those OSs - we must assume that its an up to date system running Vista or Win 7- it will have the specs to run them well.
I know that it has no meaning for you but I did do a lot of research on this. I do know what I am talking about.
CW also recommends Aero. But they are not Avid.
Thank you John! Now we can attempt to politely disagree. all the very best, mike
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John
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Re:What does X1c do that 8.5 didn't do... that makes WinXP old and outdated?
2011/08/17 10:11:47
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jm24
To be clear:
Does Sonar-X require w7 to function properly?
Does Sonar-X require new CPU instructions to function properly?
I was thinking it would be interesting to know the complete specs of the computer(s) used to compile Sonar-X.
=================
In the beginning was the Amiga. And it was good. And gamers wrote code that directly accessed the hardware. And they were fast. And the 2nd version of the OS was released, and it was good. And the games did not work because the OS did not allow such direct access.
This is similar. Does Sonar-X require w7 so it can access CPU instructions that XP cannot access?
And Mike is writing:
If so, tell us exactly what software and hardware are required to make Sonar-X wonderful.
Aero off does not interfere with w7 performance. But is areo on required for Sonar-X to behave properly?
j
The way you are putting this its clear there different meanings to the word performance.
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trimph1
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Re:What does X1c do that 8.5 didn't do... that makes WinXP old and outdated?
2011/08/17 10:12:02
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The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
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jm24
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Re:What does X1c do that 8.5 didn't do... that makes WinXP old and outdated?
2011/08/17 10:14:37
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Aero is a bunch of little apps that sorta interact: peak transparency shake auto arrange 3-d many of which can be used without the others being enabled i have no idea what peak is for, other than viewing desktop gadgets Tranparency reminds me of the stupid see-through mac cases. worthless. Who cares? interferes with readability i have peak, and tranparency off on my computers. I like the auto-arrange. i use classic themes, i find some of the 3-d stuff interferes with readability ================= why have w7::: w7 has better multi-core management, and can access newer CPU instructions, wXP and wV can not do the same But are these required for Sonar-X to work correctly? j
post edited by jm24 - 2011/08/17 10:17:44
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:What does X1c do that 8.5 didn't do... that makes WinXP old and outdated?
2011/08/17 10:17:27
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On the subject of video cards; I think that many of the advantages that come with offloading work to the GPU are negated by the fact that the most powerful GPUs come with big noisy fans. I don't to use want a medium powered GPU with a fan either. I use a simple, passively cooled, GPU that makes my graphics "display" (hint "display" is being used as a verb) All the potential of offloading to a GPU is negated by the fact that I will never be running a powerful GPU. I know this is sort of a multi dimensional thought process... but it seems, to me, like it should be pretty easy to understand. best regards, mike
post edited by mike_mccue - 2011/08/17 10:19:33
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trimph1
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Re:What does X1c do that 8.5 didn't do... that makes WinXP old and outdated?
2011/08/17 10:18:16
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I think it would work better on a multicore OS...but I'm not so sure that it would work 'correctly' on it...
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
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trimph1
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Re:What does X1c do that 8.5 didn't do... that makes WinXP old and outdated?
2011/08/17 10:22:06
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mike_mccue
On the subject of video cards; I think that many of the advantages that come with offloading work to the GPU are negated by the fact that the most powerful GPUs come with big noisy fans.
I don't to use want a medium powered GPU with a fan either.
I just want a simple, passively cooled, GPU that makes my graphics "display" (hint "display" is being used as a verb)
All the potential of offloading to a GPU is negated by the fact that I will never be running a powerful GPU.
I know this is sort of a multi dimensional thought process... but it seems, to me, like it should be pretty easy to understand.
best regards,
mike
mmmmm..well, maybe that is so. In my laptop I am using an on-board graphics chipset...not even a board...and it seems to work just fine here. Aero really does not need the massive video cards that most gamers use either..X1 really is not place that heavy a demand on the card that, say, HALO 3 might...
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
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Re:What does X1c do that 8.5 didn't do... that makes WinXP old and outdated?
2011/08/17 10:25:10
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mike_mccue
On the subject of video cards; I think that many of the advantages that come with offloading work to the GPU are negated by the fact that the most powerful GPUs come with big noisy fans.
I don't to use want a medium powered GPU with a fan either.
I use a simple, passively cooled, GPU that makes my graphics "display" (hint "display" is being used as a verb)
All the potential of offloading to a GPU is negated by the fact that I will never be running a powerful GPU.
I know this is sort of a multi dimensional thought process... but it seems, to me, like it should be pretty easy to understand.
best regards,
mike
You don't need a powerhouse GPU to run Aero or SONAR, you just need a modern video card. Any AMD 3k, 4k, 5k, or 6k card will do the trick. And any nVidia 8k, 9k, 100-400 series card will as well. I'm running fanless nVidia 8400gs cards in my DAW and they are pretty much the lowest end 8k series cards they made back like five years ago, and everything runs smooth. I've also used fanless AMD 4350 cards, also an old and underpowered series, and have gotten the same excellent results on a DAW Now, would I use either of those cards in my HTPC, where I game and watch Blu-rays? Absolutely not. That's where you spend a little more on a mid-range to high-end GPU, like the AMD 6870 or 6950. But those cards are absolutely not needed in a DAW. If you decide to buy a card right now, just get a fanless card from the latest AMD 5k or 6k or nVidia 300 or 400 series and you won't even need to think about if it will have enough horsepower or not to run a DAW, because it will. SP
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John
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Re:What does X1c do that 8.5 didn't do... that makes WinXP old and outdated?
2011/08/17 10:26:10
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mike_mccue
On the subject of video cards; I think that many of the advantages that come with offloading work to the GPU are negated by the fact that the most powerful GPUs come with big noisy fans.
I don't to use want a medium powered GPU with a fan either.
I just want a simple, passively cooled, GPU that makes my graphics "display" (hint "display" is being used as a verb)
All the potential of offloading to a GPU is negated by the fact that I will never be running a powerful GPU.
I know this is sort of a multi dimensional thought process... but it seems, to me, like it should be pretty easy to understand.
best regards,
mike
I think you would be surprised by the power of low end fanless graphics cards. If you are not a stone cold gamer the really powerful graphics are not needed. A modest one meant for Vista or Win 7 will do the job nicely. I'm not even sure that one can get a new card that isn't meant for those OSs. I have a modest card that is displaying on two monitors. I have had no issues with it or in how well things are displayed. Then its over 2 years old and it still is good enough. It is time to upgrade though. LOL.
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John T
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Re:What does X1c do that 8.5 didn't do... that makes WinXP old and outdated?
2011/08/17 10:27:01
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I've got a fanless video card that was fairly middling even four years ago when I bought it, and that's plenty good enough for Aero.
http://johntatlockaudio.com/Self-build PC // 16GB RAM // i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz // Nofan 0dB cooler // ASUS P8-Z77 V Pro motherboard // Intel x-25m SSD System Drive // Seagate RAID Array Audio Drive // Windows 10 64 bit // Sonar Platinum (64 bit) // Sonar VS-700 // M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 // KRK RP-6 Monitors // and a bunch of other stuff
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:What does X1c do that 8.5 didn't do... that makes WinXP old and outdated?
2011/08/17 10:29:39
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Did I mention AERO in that post?
I didn't bring up AERO in this thread... I just offered comments about it in a reply to something that was mentioned.
With regards to my most recent post... I am thinking about the enthusiasm I have read about CUDA more so than anything so particular as AERO.
On my i7 laptop I run Win7 64x and I have had AERO turned off since day 1.
I just like it that way.
all the best,
mike
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Re:What does X1c do that 8.5 didn't do... that makes WinXP old and outdated?
2011/08/17 10:33:13
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mike_mccue
Did I mention AERO in that post?
I didn't bring up AERO in this thread... I just offered comments about it in a reply to something that was mentioned.
With regards to my most recent post... I am thinking about the enthusiasm I have read about CUDA more so than anything so particular as AERO.
On my i7 laptop I run Win7 64x and I have had AERO turned off since day 1.
I just like it that way.
all the best,
mike
Mike, you said ... On the subject of video cards; I think that many of the advantages that come with offloading work to the GPU are negated by the fact that the most powerful GPUs come with big noisy fans. Offloading work to the GPU is what Aero does. Without Aero on your CPU handles a lot of the tasks that the GPU would otherwise do with Aero on. Frankly, it is simply not true that you need a powerful, noisy GPU to take advantage of Aero. If you prefer it off, thats fine and is simply personal preference. SP
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John
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Re:What does X1c do that 8.5 didn't do... that makes WinXP old and outdated?
2011/08/17 10:37:24
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I think maybe its that Mike is thinking about the strain on the GPU from Aero. Its not like a heavy duty game. Its really quite modest. All it does is take refreshing the screen off the CPU's back In the past the CPU did this for 2 D display. Now its all 3 D display. Its technology that was going back under windows 95 for games. Very modest indeed. You just need a good GPU and enough vid memory. That can be gotten with very little expense.
Also if noise is an issue a good sound insulated case can be very good for that. I have the Cooler Master 1000 Cosmos case and it holds 5 fans none of which are noisy.
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BEATZM1D10T
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Re:What does X1c do that 8.5 didn't do... that makes WinXP old and outdated?
2011/08/17 10:38:53
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mike_mccue
Did I mention AERO in that post?
I didn't bring up AERO in this thread... I just offered comments about it in a reply to something that was mentioned.
With regards to my most recent post... I am thinking about the enthusiasm I have read about CUDA more so than anything so particular as AERO.
On my i7 laptop I run Win7 64x and I have had AERO turned off since day 1.
I just like it that way.
all the best,
mike
CUDA really has nothing to do with Win7 or SONAR x1.
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