gothic.angel
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Re:Why I Really Want To Get X1 But Will Not Do So
2011/06/16 16:39:39
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Seth Perlstein [Cakewalk
]
...Having to dive into multi-layered right-click menus to insert a plugin does suck, especially when compared to drag and drop form the Browser. There are many things that work well from the right-click menu, as I said before. And others which do not.
...yes, but... for similar reasons... having to dive into multi-layered menus in the Track View, Piano Roll View, Mixer View... SUCKS as well......!! (Customizable) Tool Bars were FAR better, VISIBLE and thus MUCH more intuitive and FASTER than any other solution (please, forget about "I-don't-see-anything-but-I'll-try-to-keep-in-memory" key-bindings or any other typing stuff...) ...indeed, ONE of the MAIN features that made SONAR stood out from the crowd, and reason for I've been choosing SONAR for YEARS... until You (Cakewalk) removed them without notice.... IMHO, Your greatest MISTAKE of all times... seriously... ...of course You may always remedy and fix (GIVE) it BACK with SONAR X.xxx... soon...  Best regards. Edit: ...by the way... we assume You have taken note of how welcome (...thus STILL needed) "Benstat"s tool bars have been..... Sincerely, Steve.
post edited by gothic.angel - 2011/06/16 16:56:45
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djjhart@aol.com
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Re:Why I Really Want To Get X1 But Will Not Do So
2011/06/16 16:43:37
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Can you key bind the tabs in the Browser? , I don't find it easer or more productive then just clicking insert, just cause I use the media browser alot to audition so I would be tabbing back and fourth. , and tabbing is a pain..A key bind would make a world of difference.
Computer - Intel Q9550, Intel BX48bt2 MB, W8 64 bit. 8 gb Ram, SSD Hardware - Tascam Fw1884 Control surface only, Ni S49 Komplete Kontroll,Roland Quad Capture, Ni Machine,Kore, Focusrite A/D converter, Blue Mic, Roland Gaia, Akai Mpk49, Yamaha HS80 Monitors.Software - Sonar Platinum , Vengeance VPS bundle,Sugar Bytes Effectrix, Turnado, NI Komplete 10 Ultimate, Dune, Rob Papen Blade , Delay, Punch Evolved. http://soundcloud.com/johnhartson/tracks http://www.youtube.com/user/jhart1313
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n0rd
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Re:Why I Really Want To Get X1 But Will Not Do So
2011/06/16 16:51:18
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chaunceyc
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Re:Why I Really Want To Get X1 But Will Not Do So
2011/06/16 17:11:05
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djjhart@aol.com
Can you key bind the tabs in the Browser? , I don't find it easer or more productive then just clicking insert, just cause I use the media browser alot to audition so I would be tabbing back and fourth. , and tabbing is a pain..A key bind would make a world of difference.
...and the tabs in the inspector? and the sub menus in the track view? That extra mouse move+click it takes to make your desired object visible to select before dragging and dropping pretty much negates all convenience and speed advantages it might have. That's the problem with tabs - the one you need is never the one that is focused. Meanwhile, Hitting Alt-I,Y and the first letter of my desired plugin, <Enter> takes me all of 1 second to insert a new softsynth, mouse-free. :-)
PC AudioLabs Rokbox 7 (Core i7 3.40GHz, Gigabyte Z-68, 20 GB Ram, Windows 10 64-bit), MOTU 2408 Mk II / PCI-424, UAD-2. Sonar Professional, Soulphonic Soundsystem (soulphonicsound.com) Convincing Woodgrain | Portland USA nujazz/brokenbeat/neo-soul/downtempo/deep house www.soundcloud.com/chaunceyc
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Re:Why I Really Want To Get X1 But Will Not Do So
2011/06/16 17:34:55
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chaunceyc
djjhart@aol.com
Can you key bind the tabs in the Browser? , I don't find it easer or more productive then just clicking insert, just cause I use the media browser alot to audition so I would be tabbing back and fourth. , and tabbing is a pain..A key bind would make a world of difference.
...and the tabs in the inspector? and the sub menus in the track view? That extra mouse move+click it takes to make your desired object visible to select before dragging and dropping pretty much negates all convenience and speed advantages it might have. That's the problem with tabs - the one you need is never the one that is focused.
Meanwhile, Hitting Alt-I,Y and the first letter of my desired plugin, <Enter> takes me all of 1 second to insert a new softsynth, mouse-free. :-)
Maybe that's fast for you, but that is extremely cumbersome to me, and probably a lot of other people. I've never used the Alt + Letter key command to access menus like that. I've always used my mouse, but to each his own. I also gave up on trackballs years ago as I find a traditional mouse much faster. Also, you can save Browser locations/ states within ScreenSets.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Why I Really Want To Get X1 But Will Not Do So
2011/06/16 17:44:25
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How do you feel about tablets?
I've been rocking a tablet for about 10 years. I call them my mice... but they are really wacom tablets.
I use them for everything because, for me, they seem incredibly fast.
best regards,
mike
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Re:Why I Really Want To Get X1 But Will Not Do So
2011/06/16 17:54:17
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mike_mccue
How do you feel about tablets?
I've been rocking a tablet for about 10 years. I call them my mice... but they are really wacom tablets.
I use them for everything because, for me, they seem incredibly fast.
best regards,
mike
I don't have much experience with tablets. In the real world they seem superfluous to me (I prefer a laptop with a QWERTY). But in the DAW world I could see their usefulness for controlling an application or plugin. SP
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chaunceyc
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Re:Why I Really Want To Get X1 But Will Not Do So
2011/06/16 18:22:54
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Seth Perlstein [Cakewalk]
Maybe that's fast for you, but that is extremely cumbersome to me, and probably a lot of other people. I've never used the Alt + Letter key command to access menus like that. I've always used my mouse, but to each his own. I also gave up on trackballs years ago as I find a traditional mouse much faster.
Yes, it is fast. And intuitive (you get tips/reminders on which keystroke to use as soon as you hit the "Alt" key) and available in nearly every windows app since about 1992, and (unlike mouse actions) often requires NO looking at the screen--ALT-F,S - my project is saved. Try doing that blindfolded. I would be willing to bet serious money that for 90% of average tasks I can complete them 5 times faster than any mouse-centric user. Seems a vocal minority of us power-users is fighting a (seemingly) losing battle to keep this capability intact because "a lot of other people" find it cumbersome or never knew about it. It has been there all along, so far out of the way that users never knew about it or used it--so why in the name of streamlining clutter has this"invisible" built-in keybinding being gutted? I do prefer the trackball because I can keep my wrist in a truly neutral position and never have to clench the mouse to hold a steady position while clicking. If an app is so horribly designed (IK Multimedia preset browsing, anyone?) that I have to keep clicking the same spot over and over, my cursor stays right where it is and I can click the left or right button independently. It beats the mouse in my book, but I'd like to use either one even less.
Also, you can save Browser locations/ states within ScreenSets.
Some of these solutions like screensets are great in general, but using them to fix or get around UI issues that were caused or broken by X1 means you're constantly chasing your tail - Yes you can create all of these intricate structures atop an interface that was reasonably functional - but then you're having to use and remember 8+ different screensets to get around these annoyances that didn't even exist before...a screenset only used for inserting softsynths, a screenset just for use when re-naming /re-coloring clips, a screenset that shows the track view spread wide enough to display freeze archive status, a screen set with the pro-channel properties tab visible... if it is the constant answer, then at some point it seems to point out an underlying weakness in the UI design.
PC AudioLabs Rokbox 7 (Core i7 3.40GHz, Gigabyte Z-68, 20 GB Ram, Windows 10 64-bit), MOTU 2408 Mk II / PCI-424, UAD-2. Sonar Professional, Soulphonic Soundsystem (soulphonicsound.com) Convincing Woodgrain | Portland USA nujazz/brokenbeat/neo-soul/downtempo/deep house www.soundcloud.com/chaunceyc
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Why I Really Want To Get X1 But Will Not Do So
2011/06/16 18:41:53
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This is the type of tablet I was speaking of. 
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bitflipper
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Re:Why I Really Want To Get X1 But Will Not Do So
2011/06/16 19:09:05
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bitflipper: The new product is essentially functionally identical to its predecessor.
Brandon: With sincere respect Bit - I think that's rather debatable and depends highly upon how a user works and what is important to them. ProChannel, drag and drop browser with arguably superior content management, improved tabbed interface (MultiDock), screensets, etc would qualify as functional differences. Whether or not they are valuable to you is completley subjective of course. You're right, Brandon, it is debatable. So let's debate. How I feel about these features has nothing to do with whether or not X1 is essentially the same product as 8.5. The operative word is essentially. The user interface is not the program, it is the visible tip of the iceberg. Ask Noel what the ratio is of code changed versus code carried forward, and you will understand where I'm coming from. X1 is essentially the same product under the hood, despite the mandate for Marketing to portray it as something revolutionary. The UI is not the program, it is a shell around it. Which is not to say the UI enhancements don't add value! The browser is indeed superior to context menus for inserting synths and effects. But it could have easily been implemented within the pre-X1 UI paradigm and even been available alongside the traditional (unmodified) context menus. When Microsoft decided to introduce their own spreadsheet into a market that was then almost completely dominated by an entrenched vendor, they wisely gave users the option to emulate the older product to ease the transition. And today we're still using those same conventions long after we've forgotten all about Lotus 1-2-3. Similarly, Microsoft offered the option to retain the Windows 3.x shell in Windows 95, then to keep the Windows 95 UI when Windows 2000 came along, and so on. Microsoft knows a thing or two about ergonomics and user interfaces, having stolen the concept from some other very smart folks (and no, it wasn't Apple).
post edited by bitflipper - 2011/06/16 19:20:15
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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UnderTow
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Re:Why I Really Want To Get X1 But Will Not Do So
2011/06/16 19:23:11
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Come on! Everyone knows that were Cakewalk failed was in not making the on/off buttons of the FX bin glow!  If they had done that, there would be one DAW to rule them all... Well that and all my other suggestions. UnderTow
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Re:Why I Really Want To Get X1 But Will Not Do So
2011/06/16 19:44:03
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chaunceyc
Seth Perlstein [Cakewalk]
Maybe that's fast for you, but that is extremely cumbersome to me, and probably a lot of other people. I've never used the Alt + Letter key command to access menus like that. I've always used my mouse, but to each his own. I also gave up on trackballs years ago as I find a traditional mouse much faster.
Yes, it is fast. And intuitive (you get tips/reminders on which keystroke to use as soon as you hit the "Alt" key) and available in nearly every windows app since about 1992, and (unlike mouse actions) often requires NO looking at the screen--ALT-F,S - my project is saved. Try doing that blindfolded. I would be willing to bet serious money that for 90% of average tasks I can complete them 5 times faster than any mouse-centric user. Seems a vocal minority of us power-users is fighting a (seemingly) losing battle to keep this capability intact because "a lot of other people" find it cumbersome or never knew about it. It has been there all along, so far out of the way that users never knew about it or used it--so why in the name of streamlining clutter has this"invisible" built-in keybinding being gutted?
I do prefer the trackball because I can keep my wrist in a truly neutral position and never have to clench the mouse to hold a steady position while clicking. If an app is so horribly designed (IK Multimedia preset browsing, anyone?) that I have to keep clicking the same spot over and over, my cursor stays right where it is and I can click the left or right button independently. It beats the mouse in my book, but I'd like to use either one even less.
Also, you can save Browser locations/ states within ScreenSets.
Some of these solutions like screensets are great in general, but using them to fix or get around UI issues that were caused or broken by X1 means you're constantly chasing your tail - Yes you can create all of these intricate structures atop an interface that was reasonably functional - but then you're having to use and remember 8+ different screensets to get around these annoyances that didn't even exist before...a screenset only used for inserting softsynths, a screenset just for use when re-naming /re-coloring clips, a screenset that shows the track view spread wide enough to display freeze archive status, a screen set with the pro-channel properties tab visible... if it is the constant answer, then at some point it seems to point out an underlying weakness in the UI design.
Why would you use Alt + F + S to save a project? There's a Shortcut for that which is Ctrl + S, which I use all the time. Or it can be rebound to a different key or even a MIDI control if you want to map it to a Control surface button or pad. I dunno, there's a million ways to skin a cat, but not looking at the monitor and using Alt + Key modifiers is not the way I work, or want to work, to be honest. I respect your methods, certainly, but they are not for me. Having said that, we are looking into ways to best support all of our users different workflows. SP
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Re:Why I Really Want To Get X1 But Will Not Do So
2011/06/16 19:46:23
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mike_mccue
This is the type of tablet I was speaking of.
That's pretty cool, and I've seen a bunch of artists use them in behind the scenes footage for movie production. I guess if your a pen person who is good at articulating that way, which I assume you are, then that would be a great choice of input device. For someone like me, who feels awkward with a traditional writing implement, I would probably only use that if I were animating or doing 3d art. Still cool, though. I could see how that might be a good way to work with clips and such, but I've never tried it. SP
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UnderTow
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Re:Why I Really Want To Get X1 But Will Not Do So
2011/06/16 19:53:57
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Seth Perlstein [Cakewalk
]
That's pretty cool, and I've seen a bunch of artists use them in behind the scenes footage for movie production.
Yep. Every single post production studio I have ever worked at has pen tablets. (Not that every engineer uses them but they are always available). I guess if your a pen person who is good at articulating that way, which I assume you are, then that would be a great choice of input device. For someone like me, who feels awkward with a traditional writing implement, I would probably only use that if I were animating or doing 3d art. Still cool, though. I could see how that might be a good way to work with clips and such, but I've never tried it.
I am useless with a real pen/pencil and have a horrible hand writing but a pen tablet is nearly twice as fast as a mouse (after the initial learning curve) and causes much less stress on the hand. Unfortunately there are issues with the way Sonar works with a pen tablet. Some of the faders and knobs jump to their max or minimum value when you try to adjust them with a pen tablet. I have mentioned this before but I don't believe anything has been done about it. It would be a nice improvement. UnderTow
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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Re:Why I Really Want To Get X1 But Will Not Do So
2011/06/16 19:57:54
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bitflipper
bitflipper: The new product is essentially functionally identical to its predecessor.
Brandon: With sincere respect Bit - I think that's rather debatable and depends highly upon how a user works and what is important to them. ProChannel, drag and drop browser with arguably superior content management, improved tabbed interface (MultiDock), screensets, etc would qualify as functional differences. Whether or not they are valuable to you is completley subjective of course.
You're right, Brandon, it is debatable. So let's debate.
How I feel about these features has nothing to do with whether or not X1 is essentially the same product as 8.5. The operative word is essentially.
The user interface is not the program, it is the visible tip of the iceberg. Ask Noel what the ratio is of code changed versus code carried forward, and you will understand where I'm coming from. X1 is essentially the same product under the hood, despite the mandate for Marketing to portray it as something revolutionary. The UI is not the program, it is a shell around it.
Hmmmm...I don't agree with the "UI is not the program" notion as a fundamental concept. To use a car/software analogy (which I hate), it's like saying the paint, seats, climate controls, etc are not the car. How you interact witjh the underlying functionality is of great importance and is intrinsic to the product. The code that incorporates the UI and allows it to function with various other areas of the program is all part of the overall program's code. So it is the program. And I'd say it is not only part of the program, but a very important part at that. UI begets workflow and workflow can be revolutionary. It can most certainly be improved upon. How one works with the program affects the result and that is what people use a program for. Which is not to say the UI enhancements don't add value! The browser is indeed superior to context menus for inserting synths and effects. But it could have easily been implemented within the pre-X1 UI paradigm and even been available alongside the traditional (unmodified) context menus.
But in so many ways the UI between X1 and 8.5 is similar in function. I always feel it gets overstated as to how different they are. They are not like two different programs. Some of the operations have changed, but it's not like all the functions have changed, etc. And this all depends on how we define the "X1 UI paradigm". The things you say could have been implemented within the pre-X1 paradigm are things that actually make up the X1 paradigm. They are the X1 paradigm - albeit partially. Where does one begin and the other end? Things in X1 are, to at least some degree, an evolution of previous SONAR incarnations. Everyone has different things they wish we hadn't changed or are thrilled that we changed. So I guess we need to define which things we should not have changed. The right-click context menus (I'm assuming) are not all that different from before, but there have been some changes, yes. But changes in context menus happen in software all the time...otherwise they get unwieldy. It doesn't seem like a monumental shift in usability.
When Microsoft decided to introduce their own spreadsheet into a market that was then almost completely dominated by an entrenched vendor, they wisely gave users the option to emulate the older product to ease the transition. And today we're still using those same conventions long after we've forgotten all about Lotus 1-2-3.
OK and interesting, but I think there may be a lack of parallel here. SONAR is not going against an entrenched vendor, etc (unless we are talking about SONAR acting like PT ).
Similarly, Microsoft offered the option to retain the Windows 3.x shell in Windows 95, then to keep the Windows 95 UI when Windows 2000 came along, and so on. Microsoft knows a thing or two about ergonomics and user interfaces, having stolen the concept from some other very smart folks (and no, it wasn't Apple).
(Well some on this thread might not agree with you that MS know much about UI and ergonomics due to some of the comments about the Ribbon.  ) Personally I think they do though. But I can't seem to make Win7 look and work like Win 3.1 or XP. Maybe it's possible but it's buried if so and I just don't know how - but it seems they are moving away from this 100% backward compatibility between OS's. And frankly I think their adherence to this in the past has shown only to have hindered them and splintered the userbase. I don't think it's wise to have a bunch of different, legacy UI's floating around within a program and subsequently within a userbase. To me, the pitfalls outweigh the positives overall.
post edited by Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk] - 2011/06/16 20:03:21
"The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel." WG SONAR Platinum | VS-700 | A-800 PRO | PCAL i7 with SSD running Windows 8 x64 | Samsung 27" LCD @ 1920x1080 | Blue Sky monitors with BMC | All kinds of other stuff
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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Re:Why I Really Want To Get X1 But Will Not Do So
2011/06/16 20:00:06
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mike_mccue
This is the type of tablet I was speaking of.
I've heard users rave about the functionality of these in SONAR from time to time. I need to get one.  The problem is I am so often using computers that are not mine - so I like to keep my mouse chops razor sharp.
"The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel." WG SONAR Platinum | VS-700 | A-800 PRO | PCAL i7 with SSD running Windows 8 x64 | Samsung 27" LCD @ 1920x1080 | Blue Sky monitors with BMC | All kinds of other stuff
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cornieleous
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Re:Why I Really Want To Get X1 But Will Not Do So
2011/06/16 20:07:41
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gothic.angel
Seth Perlstein [Cakewalk
]
...Having to dive into multi-layered right-click menus to insert a plugin does suck, especially when compared to drag and drop form the Browser. There are many things that work well from the right-click menu, as I said before. And others which do not.
...yes, but... for similar reasons... having to dive into multi-layered menus in the Track View, Piano Roll View, Mixer View... SUCKS as well......!!
(Customizable) Tool Bars were FAR better, VISIBLE and thus MUCH more intuitive and FASTER than any other solution (please, forget about "I-don't-see-anything-but-I'll-try-to-keep-in-memory" key-bindings or any other typing stuff...)
...indeed, ONE of the MAIN features that made SONAR stood out from the crowd, and reason for I've been choosing SONAR for YEARS... until You (Cakewalk) removed them without notice....
IMHO, Your greatest MISTAKE of all times... seriously...
...of course You may always remedy and fix (GIVE) it BACK with SONAR X.xxx... soon...
Best regards.
Edit:
...by the way... we assume You have taken note of how welcome (...thus STILL needed) "Benstat"s tool bars have been.....
Sincerely, Steve.
+1 The return of customizations of all colors, menus, track headers and toolbars is the absolute smartest thing Cakewalk could do. I still can hardly believe that Cake removed all that work for no good reason. X1 could still be exactly like it is and most customizations could have been left alone. Along with restoring/improving customization, a customizable browser, inspector, plus presets for all custom options (eg. "Beginner", "Live Sound", "Midi Power User", "Film Score", "Custom" etc.. etc...) would make customizations successful and easy for everyone to learn and apply. More control over the smart tool (like 8.5 has) is also much better than the pre canned solution Cake has forced on us. One day I hope it is learned that you CAN please all users (or very close to) with intelligent and easy to set up customization options. You can easily piss off half of the users by continuing to pick arbitrary places to jam functions and calling it good. Also, separately the PRV must be repaired. It should be better than 8.5.3 in future versions, and we all know why its not acceptable as is in X1 (snap, removal of snap dialog, and other rash decisions). D.
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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Re:Why I Really Want To Get X1 But Will Not Do So
2011/06/16 20:23:47
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cornieleous
+1
The return of customizations of all colors, menus, track headers and toolbars is the absolute smartest thing Cakewalk could do. I still can hardly believe that Cake removed all that work for no good reason. X1 could still be exactly like it is and most customizations could have been left alone.
All? Probably won't happen, but I would imagine some. You can't say equivocally that all customizations could still have all been left in and that work was actually removed for no reason. How do you know it wouldn't have been more work to include certain customizations or that they might have conflicted with newer code and/or aspects of the program. Very easy thing to say, but far more difficult to prove or support.
More control over the smart tool (like 8.5 has) is also much better than the pre canned solution Cake has forced on us.
I have repeatedly stated that we would like this and that I am in fact a proponent. Second time today even. It was even in this actual thread. (thinking I may make it a sticky). One day I hope it is learned that you CAN please all users (or very close to) with intelligent and easy to set up customization options. You can easily piss off half of the users by continuing to pick arbitrary places to jam functions and calling it good.
If you think the commands in X1 are stuffed in arbitrary places then I suspect we may have a very difficult time coming to any real terms in this discussion. I can understand if you don't agree with some of the decisions, but if you really stand by that statement then one of two things must be true. 1) You haven't looked at it long enough with an open mind to realize it's not at all arbitrary. 2) We have such vastly different ideas about how a piece of software should work that we might as well be speaking different languages. 3) Maybe there's a third option?
Also, separately the PRV must be repaired. It should be better than 8.5.3 in future versions, and we all know why its not acceptable as is in X1 (snap, removal of snap dialog, and other rash decisions).
I have trouble with the characterization of "rash". But I agree about the Snap.
D.
post edited by Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk] - 2011/06/16 20:27:51
"The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel." WG SONAR Platinum | VS-700 | A-800 PRO | PCAL i7 with SSD running Windows 8 x64 | Samsung 27" LCD @ 1920x1080 | Blue Sky monitors with BMC | All kinds of other stuff
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Zuma
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Re:Why I Really Want To Get X1 But Will Not Do So
2011/06/16 20:47:07
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I continue to scratch my head over the complete polar opposite results between users, many of whom are running almost indentical system configs... the disparity is strange and I keep searching for a correlation, hidden or otherwise, and can come up with nothing other than new code. It's truly bizzare from my perspective as I sit on the fence watching with almost macabre fascination. I will upgrade before the new build for no other reason than trimming future budget prospects down to manageable size. I'm not grabbed by X1 the way previous versions grabbed me, but I'll keep an eye on the future just the same.
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cornieleous
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Re:Why I Really Want To Get X1 But Will Not Do So
2011/06/16 22:01:03
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Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]
cornieleous
+1
The return of customizations of all colors, menus, track headers and toolbars is the absolute smartest thing Cakewalk could do. I still can hardly believe that Cake removed all that work for no good reason. X1 could still be exactly like it is and most customizations could have been left alone.
All? Probably won't happen, but I would imagine some. You can't say equivocally that all customizations could still have all been left in and that work was actually removed for no reason. How do you know it wouldn't have been more work to include certain customizations or that they might have conflicted with newer code and/or aspects of the program. Very easy thing to say, but far more difficult to prove or support.
I can't say for sure, as I am not privy to that information. I strongly suspect that most custom options could coexist without much trouble - especially seeing what benstat and panup came up with for X1, and considering the old custom toolbars and menus were made by a similar but built in tool / dialog.
More control over the smart tool (like 8.5 has) is also much better than the pre canned solution Cake has forced on us.
I have repeatedly stated that we would like this and that I am in fact a proponent. Second time today even. It was even in this actual thread. (thinking I may make it a sticky).
Hey I admit guilt of missing a few posts in these larger threads sometimes. One day I hope it is learned that you CAN please all users (or very close to) with intelligent and easy to set up customization options. You can easily piss off half of the users by continuing to pick arbitrary places to jam functions and calling it good.
If you think the commands in X1 are stuffed in arbitrary places then I suspect we may have a very difficult time coming to any real terms in this discussion. I can understand if you don't agree with some of the decisions, but if you really stand by that statement then one of two things must be true.
1) You haven't looked at it long enough with an open mind to realize it's not at all arbitrary.
2) We have such vastly different ideas about how a piece of software should work that we might as well be speaking different languages.
3) Maybe there's a third option?
Perhaps "Arbitrary" is not an accurate term here. I'll concede that point since I am sure there was some logic in the choices made. Let me rephrase and say that many of the changes don't make logical sense to me: like putting synth rack view into the browser as is, or peeling certain controls from track header and putting them in the inspector (not all of us want to use track inspector for all things) or removing so many useful buttons in favor of way too many keybindings (eg. note lengths), leaving so much blank unusable space on the new interface (some is good) or locking up many parts of the color scheme and fonts, abbreviations in dropdowns, and on and on... The old customization tools actually allowed the user to do much of this 'cleaning up' themselves if they wished. Also, separately the PRV must be repaired. It should be better than 8.5.3 in future versions, and we all know why its not acceptable as is in X1 (snap, removal of snap dialog, and other rash decisions).
I have trouble with the characterization of "rash". But I agree about the Snap.
I gotta stick with my term "Rash" on this one. Removing the separate snap grids and the dialog, and missing the opportunity to fix up the whacky magnetic strength behavior is rash to my mind. I feel like the universal snap grid never should have seen the light of day and try as hard as I might, I can't see the other side to this one. I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers by being so blunt, but I guess I am just concerned that no future version of Sonar will be as powerful for me as 8.5.3 without a few key changes. Let me end with a more substantial example: In 8.5.3 I have these menus. They may be totally backwards to you, but you can make your own. The point is we had choice:  In X1 we get this mess. If you don't like, too bad. And the whole program was painted with this 'chosen for you' brush:  D.
post edited by cornieleous - 2011/06/16 22:15:53
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musicroom
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Re:Why I Really Want To Get X1 But Will Not Do So
2011/06/17 05:37:13
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From S3 to the current X1b, I have always found the software to be easy to work with and for the most part - gets the job done in a pleasant way. But just like in the tape world I am experienced with, I can always work around shortcomings and reach my overall goal of making a polished recording. I also spent close to a year getting up to speed with Reaper, which is all over the place in a delightful way. I've customized the crap out of Reaper and love the routing capability. But I still consider Sonar my go-to daw. I only mention Reaper and tape as reference points for diversity sake.
A few things I don't like with X1 is it appears to be less tolerant of a few of my plugs. I also noticed the smart tool can be picky and not so smart sometimes in regards to being smart about where/when I want to perform an action. I would like for the buss section in both the console and track views to be free floating and mobile if I wanted. I would also like for the busses to have something distinctive about how they look/appear. I also noticed I have some delay when I first press play that I don't have in 8.5 or Reaper. Slightly irritating. I would like to be able to drag and drop my connections to busses. I also have one weird instance where I was putting automation on a 8.5 project and the track went silent- no matter what I tried. (note: I'm not a rookie). Working with the small footprint of the eq screen in the pro-channel is irritating to me. I would like to be able have a zoom function or a drag/separate window for the eq. No upgrades to V-Vocal and Audio snap (nothing major) was surprising!!! With all the new discoveries in tuning waveforms happening all around us, it seems like V-Vocal is still a semi-kludgey tool to work with. Disappointing to think I need to shell out bucks for something like melodyne when programs like cubase seem to be elevating their vocal tuning technology. I would also like the option to see the waveform in the eq. I would also like to have more clickable settings for track height in track view and more track width options in the mixer. V-vocal and I can't see all the tools I want in the new toolbar. They do not all fit - bummer. It would be nice to at least have small buttons to call those up as floating/vanishing as I work. I think more automation options should be easily available. As much a I hate to say this, I have had more crashes in X1 than every version of previous versions of Sonar combined. Of course that is a "seems like" - I didn't track actual occurrences. With every crash for me - it was vst related. Not Sonar's responsibility - however, Reaper didn't spit these plugs out and crash.
Still - this daw sounds great! My recordings are smooth sounding and a pleasure to work with. That is the bottom line for me.
All in all, I would give X1 an "A" for being a cool daw to look at and work with - and - listen to. I would give X1 a C+ for being reliable and having most of what I want at my finger/mouse tips. I am a MacGyver by nature, so work arounds and patience keeps me happy with just about any daw I work with.
I love the look - smokes previous versions of Sonar from my perspective. I doing everything in X1 now, and it's getting the job done.
Dave Songs___________________________________ Desktop: Platinum / RME Multiface II / Purrfect Audio DAW I7-3770 / 16 GB RAM / Win 10 Pro / Remote Laptop i7 6500U / 12GB RAM / RME Babyface
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RnRmaChine
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Re:Why I Really Want To Get X1 But Will Not Do So
2011/06/17 08:30:18
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The delay when you hit play... is all about the audio buffer size. Change it if need be.
Sonar Platinum Windows 7 Pro 64bit Dual Processors - Intel Xeon X5670 - 6 cores/cpu = 12core w/Hyperthreading = 24core 24GB 10600 DDR3 1333 RAM 1110w PSU Geforce GTS 450 128GB SanDisk SSD OS/C:drive WD Blue HDrives Sample, Audio, Storage.
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thebiglongy
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Re:Why I Really Want To Get X1 But Will Not Do So
2011/06/17 08:52:40
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Bought it a little while back, loaded it up a few times, attempted to continue old projects and start new, got fed up of constantly trying to find things which were easily at hand and visible in previous versions, noted that I could adjust hardly anything in the UI.....so switched it off and really wish I could get a refund.....it's non-intuitive, it's very very restricted and tbh......i could have done without the lick of paint and new shiny decals, and instead would have preferred gap-less audio better V-Vocal (one that works would be nice) Better Time stretching algorithms ...... all of which can be found in other daws, years ago!!!! not as if these were new features to daws, but sonar is still lagging behind.
As it stands i'm sticking with 8.3 after the upgrade to x1 and i really wish 8.5 came free with x1 as an alternative.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Why I Really Want To Get X1 But Will Not Do So
2011/06/17 09:15:33
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^ Another example of the seldom acknowledged "many".
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John T
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Re:Why I Really Want To Get X1 But Will Not Do So
2011/06/17 09:15:54
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You know, all this clogging up of the X1 forum, which is like, for actual users of X1, with people who don't use X1 papping on about why they don't is:
1/ Tiresome
2/ Ignorant
You don't use it, fine, don't use it. I can assure you, this information that you don't use it is not some fascinating stuff other X1 users have been dying to know.
http://johntatlockaudio.com/Self-build PC // 16GB RAM // i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz // Nofan 0dB cooler // ASUS P8-Z77 V Pro motherboard // Intel x-25m SSD System Drive // Seagate RAID Array Audio Drive // Windows 10 64 bit // Sonar Platinum (64 bit) // Sonar VS-700 // M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 // KRK RP-6 Monitors // and a bunch of other stuff
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:Why I Really Want To Get X1 But Will Not Do So
2011/06/17 09:16:28
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I don't think X1 was any more traumatic than SONAR 7, which had some serious problems in the initial release, some of which were not fixed (e.g. external insert delay compensation) until SONAR 8. I would not be afraid to run X1 in its current state.
Agreed... It's easy to forget that version 7 had a rough start. Version 8 was a big improvement in that regard. X1 is working well here. No major issues... (certainly nothing like MIDI timing or stability problems). The worst I get is the "Teleport server has stopped" error message when closing X1. It's completely inert... so it's just a slight annoyance. For those having major issues, are you running Win7x64 or WinXPx86? X1 arrived at a point of critical mass. Version 8.53 was already a powerful full-featured DAW application. Where do you go from there? I can see why some would say, "Don't change a good thing." IMO, The one area where v8.53 needed some improvement was in the GUI. I didn't care for all the pastel widgets. This is an aesthetic thing, so there are no absolutes. To my eyes and ways of working, X1's GUI is an organizational improvement. That's not to say there isn't room for major improvement/growth. As for stability, I've not had any major problems with X1... not even the intial release. There seems to be two distinct camps. Those that have major issues... and those that have few (if any) major problems. Where's the gap? There are too many folks in both camps to simply dismiss either. ie: I think it would be productive to figure out why some folks are having MIDI timing issues... and others (like myself) are not.
post edited by Jim Roseberry - 2011/06/17 09:37:07
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John T
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Re:Why I Really Want To Get X1 But Will Not Do So
2011/06/17 09:16:39
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mike_mccue
^ Another example of the seldom acknowledged "many".
Well, no. It's an individual opinion. Christ.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Why I Really Want To Get X1 But Will Not Do So
2011/06/17 09:26:08
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I believe that a lot of us can run X1 on our machines with stability... so comparing X1s rough start and lack of acceptance by experienced SONAR users to the circumstance of inoperability of some former versions may not clarify any understanding of the current frustrations many of us want Cakewalk to learn of.
Some of us simply think that the layout of X1 reflects bad choices in design... and that concern does not lend itself to comparison with former versions that just seemed to buggy to work.
In my opinion the bugs that made X1 inoperable or unusable before the fix releases were merely a distraction from the fact that X1s layout and GUI design is so inefficient that many of us are choosing to avoid it.
all the best,
mike
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John T
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Re:Why I Really Want To Get X1 But Will Not Do So
2011/06/17 09:31:24
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Really interesting new stuff there, yeah. It must take quite a mind to keep coming up with these fresh perspectives.
http://johntatlockaudio.com/Self-build PC // 16GB RAM // i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz // Nofan 0dB cooler // ASUS P8-Z77 V Pro motherboard // Intel x-25m SSD System Drive // Seagate RAID Array Audio Drive // Windows 10 64 bit // Sonar Platinum (64 bit) // Sonar VS-700 // M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 // KRK RP-6 Monitors // and a bunch of other stuff
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jm24
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Re:Why I Really Want To Get X1 But Will Not Do So
2011/06/17 09:36:55
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Final thoughts The reality is irreversible changes have been made that negatively impact productivity in significant ways for "many" users. These changes require increased attention to details that provide no positive value in the primary purpose of the application. These changes require many users to have to do more of: extra clicking with pointing devices reading cluttered menus with too many, non-removable choices inability to change default settings placement of menus and function access requiring focus be moved away from work reduction of ability to customize, thereby reducing the power of the program The end effect: the user interface now demands more attention (look what I can do!) the user interface is now more in-the-way of getting work done The removal of alt key access to functions via menus has effectively reduced accessibility for the sight-less to zero. Because of Sonar's customization of features, Sonar used to be highly regarded by those with reduced physical abilities. I am very disappointed with the Cakewalk managers who did all of this. S-X is a major step away from the what appeared to be the philosophy of the Twelve-Tone/Cakewalk creators. Until S-X Cakewalk products were user focused with increasing flexibility and customization with every new program and version. It is obvious it will be years, if ever, for Sonar to get to the level of version 8.5.3's power and potential. My anger is based in having dozens of Sonar projects that would be impossible to convert to any other existing program. My expectation that using Sonar would provide continued continuity is at the core of my sadness. I am completely, utterly, amazed at what has happened. J (edit: crap forum editor) (2nd edit: POS forum user interface)
post edited by jm24 - 2011/06/17 09:40:49
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