I assume that you guys are talking about problems with Track Envelopes getting deleted or losing data when the Clips are moved deleted etc.
 
The OP referred to Clip Envelopes  I would consider loosing the clip envelope data when the clip is deleted to be normal behaviour.
 
 
 

What's odd, is I use track layers all the time with envelopes, clip envelopes, etc.  I've never had an issue with those features.

well...maybe it isn't odd.  But I'm still on 7pe too.

I can reproduce the clip envelope problem each and every time.

Create a track with two or more layers.

Place a few audio clips in some of the layers.

For this demonstration make sure the clips overlap on the timeline.

Add a clip envelope to each.

edit to add: Drag clips up and down to other layers in the track... but keep them overlapped.

delete a clip

POW!!!


This is why it's an issue while you are still comping or tracking and comping... because at that stage it's likely you'll delete a clip.

If you do not have overlapping clips then you'll probably not notice an issue.

best regards,
mike

Jose, yes, I have edited my mention of the moving part... I was mistaken in my recollection but ran off to confirm in my laptops v7 because v7 was mentioned and came back and edited the post. Sorry for the confusion.

FWIW, I think the problem starts to effect any clip after you start dragging the clips up and down across layers. Deleting a clip that has been dragged up or down (after copying not while copying) will mess you up.

To be clear I reported his several years ago and got my nice and polite response from support with an acknowledgment of understanding and assurances of attention.

I use the clip layers to comp pop songs... dragging them up and down seems totally natural and provides a great and fast way to work quickly. Getting to use clip envelopes is a great time saver at the early stages as well... it's too early to use track envelopes.

It's a bummer that the work around completely nullifies any time saving that could be achieved working as I describe.

best,
mike

dbmusic

<< I too have recently joined the Reaper camp. Imagine my delight when I realized you could key bind Take (clip) pan and volume envelopes...and when splitting audio clips they automatically add fades at the split segments...and that all takes, midi and audio alike, are designed as loops from the moment they are created. >>
 
Right. Such small stuff. Sounds petty when you complain about the absence of such feature individually. But their presence makes all the difference in the world. Like the ability to optionally set a default fade in/out (down to 1ms) for every clip created by recording and/or splitting. Plus having, on the same dialog box, the ability to INDEPENDENTLY set pitch and playback rate on a per-clip basis. That's the kind of stuff that matters, no matter which new channel strip plugin you're using or how pretty the drum kit pic.
 
<< I'm just getting started, but what this says to me is that someone over there actually understands the importance of solid, fundamental audio production/editing tools and workflow. >>
 
Exactly. Whatever the differences, pro and con, between Sonar and Reaper (and the latter has totally spoiled me for the former), what really matters is the difference between Cakewalk and Cockos in that the latter know BOTH modern software design AND modern recording processes, methods, and techniques, and are combining these skills at an astonishing rate.
 
 

Hi Dr. Oddy.

You mean like this:

http://forum.cakewalk.com...61&mpage=1#1338761

droddey


My problem in the layers area is muting. If you do a bunch of work to comp some layers, then you delete one of the layers, it screws up all of the muted selections I've made. It's been this way for some time. I think it's pretty clear that they have a fundamental issue with tracking the layers and that's at the root of all these types of issues.

I, too, am convinced there are some issues with the fundamental design of track layers and envelopes in Sonar that manifest themselves, from minor annoyances to system crashes, in a myriad of ways. As this thread can attest, anyone who has spend even a modicum of effort comping audio clips with envelopes (both track and clip) in layers will encounter the issues.

The development of any sophisticated software has issues, but it is the integrity vested in resolving these things that, IMO, makes all the difference. You simply cannot continue to window dress a product in the name of profit while blatantly ignoring what is broken without suffering a loss of credibility and character. You will be forever marketing to the novice while eroding the customer base that got you where you are.

I have a soft spot for Cakewalk. I want them to succeed. I want them to fix the issues that are important to me. Thus, the subject and intent of this thread. But honestly, I'm not optimistic. I believe there are some genuinely good people at Cakewalk...but I also suspect they are being railroaded by a new corporate culture that dictates a false axiom of "sell it first, then fix it later". I would like to be wrong...but the facts are speaking very clearly.

Meanwhile, there are a group of guys doing some pretty amazing things over on the dark side. The Reaper guys get it. You can feel it. And Cakewalk and every other DAW maker would do themselves well by taking the time to listen.

Regards,

DB

fitzj


What does Sonar 8.3.1 do that Reaper cannot. I downloaded a copy and played around with it. Its $60 dollars i believe and the written by musicians for musicians. Bugs get fixed quickly loads of free vst's, Templates and all sorts of other freebies. I preferred the old cakewalk before it was hijacked by Roland.
Is Cakewalk in trouble, Can it survive. I hear Protools are having trouble with one of the main guys deserting to Universal audio.

I spent an hour with Reaper yesterday - Already I can do more with it than after a whole year with Sonar.... it's just so intuitive to use, sorry Bakers, but you have just lost the race I think.... 

oopps...sorry... I went to the reaper homepage....I feel guilty, but I didn't do anything. I really want to stay with sonar!     
 Cakewalk: please fix this bug!

Mike,

Thanks for sharing that piece of info.  I never knew about that option so I will give it a try later today.

Also, it is my pleasure to take the time to find these bugs.  The better we explain how to reproduce them, the faster Cakewalk gets rid of them.  So I try to be as helpful as I can to Cakewalk and to this community.

Take care!

droddey


My problem in the layers area is muting. If you do a bunch of work to comp some layers, then you delete one of the layers, it screws up all of the muted selections I've made. It's been this way for some time. I think it's pretty clear that they have a fundamental issue with tracking the layers and that's at the root of all these types of issues.

This has made the muting tool useless for me. Hugely annoying bug.

Reaper has it's own problems, just like all software.
 
Honestly I've tried Reaper a couple of times
and it always crashes or locks up on my system.

It's not the perfect solution that you all are depicting.

Fret Wizz


Reaper has it's own problems, just like all software.

Honestly I've tried Reaper a couple of times
and it always crashes or locks up on my system.

It's not the perfect solution that you all are depicting.

<TongueInCheek>

    You must not know how to configure a DAW then. coz it werks perfectly for me!!!!!!   <GGG>

<TongueInCheek>

I only tend to use "volume envelopes" in a time linear fashion, not on layered clips in a track, so I haven't experienced a lot of disappointment with the envelope matter. Volume envelopes mostly work fine for me.

But I have experienced a very irritating issue with my use of volume envelopes. Sometimes, if I delete a node on the volume envelope (in a MIDI track that's driving a softsynth) at a certain point along the timeline, then play back the project, I get no audio (from the synth connected to that track) at that point in the timeline. The track volume fader is still set at a particular volume level, but there is no sound from the track at that point in the timeline. I can move the track volume fader to get volume again, but if I stop. rewind, and playback the project again, there is no audio sounding when the project playback reaches that point in the timeline. Even if I create a volume snapshot at that point with the volume set at a certain level, when I playback the project there is no audio sounding at that same point in the time line. That really stinks.
 
My work around for this is to enable  Automation Write for that track, and when I get to the point in the timeline where the audio doesn't sound, I just move the track volume fader a tiny bit up and then down, and the volume kicks in again. This problem only happens rarely, so it's no serious show stoper, for me.

I have been using SONAR since SONAR XL, and I don't use any other sequencer DAW software, but i think Cakewalk should listen to these log time SONAR users. I have no problem with legitimate complaints. Pressure, on Cakewalk to fix bugs, only makes SONAR a more stable and better DAW software for us all. hehe

Jose7822


OK, you were right Mike.  Please forgive me.

I have a 100% working recipe now:

1- Insert 3 audio clips in an audio track and make sure they are on top of each other (enable track layers to do this).
2- Place Clip Envelopes on each of the audio clips.
3- Move the middle clip slightly to the right, but make sure it still overlaps with the other clips.
4- Delete either the top or the bottom clip (not both).


Observations:
 
- The middle clip desappears by the same amount of overlap as the deleted clip.
- This also makes the other clips move to the side. 
- Sometimes, deleting a clip will remove the overlapping clips' envelopes only. 
  
  
Problem Report #: 
 
"The Dreaded Clip Envelope Bug" - CWBRN-1813

 
 
 

  Reproducible by me.  Houston, we have a problem.