playing to a click. Why so difficult?

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cAPSLOCK
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult? 2006/09/24 01:43:56 (permalink)
It is rare I read an entire thread... I feel like I am on another planet.

Such attacks on us drummers... horrible... all of you. ;)

Paradoodles?

I guess I should expect as much after the opening posters question... It's like a T-ball game.

I almost want to record myself against a click to show you all...

Leme just level this stage first... hmm... yeah... that's about right...


"We da da sahw pe paw fidlily-doobee afidlily-dooten-bweebee!" -Shooby
#31
Phrauge
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult? 2006/09/24 01:44:15 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Envoy

ORIGINAL: Phrauge
I was with you right up to there.


Mind you, I'm not saying they (we) are genetically superior either!



Having been a drummer for many years, being referred to as "genetically inferior" would be one of the kindest descriptions I’ve ever heard.
#32
Ognis
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult? 2006/09/24 01:48:13 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Envoy

ORIGINAL: Ogis
Well, yes, if you can hear it, of course. Hence my post of a visual metradone....


Ouch! C'mon!! Just because I'm playing a percussive sound doesn't mean I can't hear another sound. In fact, working with students as well, you teach them to play with click until the click seems to "disappear", because they are hitting directly on click. And as they become even better listeners, and can control their own tempo and inner pulse, they can start to move their notes a little bit either way, and can start to hear the click peeking out from either ahead of, or behind, the note they play.

This is all pretty fundamental to studio drumming skills. It gets more dicey with classical percussionists, who sometimes don't tend to think of time in the same way as pop or commercial, but that is another story.

Sorry, I'm sure this has gotten way OT for the Sonar forum!

Envoy



Hey, my point only being my personal experance. Maybe I cant hear the click cuz I'm so good :P (hehe).. But truth is, however you look at it, the best thing for a drumer in a studio laying down an album is their own feel. A band that is recording their own song, has practiced that song a million times before they pay for studio time. IMO he soundn't need a damn thing, yet if he does, give him a visual metradone. Yet yes I agree, if I was a drumn instructor, I'd give him a click to follow. Yet, in real world studio time, I just dont find that practical. they are tring to lay something down, not learn a lesson. I know that sounds rude, yet I really dont mean it that way. Thing is, as I said, a dumer will have better feel with headphones, and a visual metradone, than some click, any day.
#33
Envoy
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult? 2006/09/24 03:26:49 (permalink)
Ogis,

I'm not saying every recording situation is a good place to use a clicktrack, or that there aren't plenty of occasions where the feel is more important than strict tempo. But if you think about it, a visual metronome (why do you insist on the "metradone" deal?) is No Different from a click as far as feel is concerned - a click or an LED flash (or some other visual device): they all simply indicate a regular pulse. And how would a person read a chart when looking at a visual?

The original premise still stands: no reason *any* musician can't play with a click, it just takes practice and awareness.

Envoy

...the dreamer that remains...
#34
Susan G
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult? 2006/09/24 03:42:42 (permalink)
Hi Envoy-

And how would a person read a chart when looking at a visual?

I'm late to this thread and I haven't read the whole thing, but studio and orchestral musicians are expected to do exactly that. They read a chart or score while "following the leader". A well-trained musician can do both and play the "right" notes at the same time. It's pretty amazing, when you think about it!

-Susan

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#35
Envoy
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult? 2006/09/24 03:56:15 (permalink)
Susan,

Good point, and since I make the bulk of my living by playing in a symphony orchestra I'm no stranger to that! However, the difference is that while one would have click running in phones the entire track while reading, one could hardly stare at a visual metronome in the same fashion. The other main point is that while we look at the conductor (if for no other reason than to validate his/her existence), we aren't sitting and watching every beat to keep locked - that's what the ears are for. Conductors serve more of a purpose for tempo changes and dynamic phrasing. Besides, it is a rare day indeed where you have a conductor with a great internal clock! One of the main reasons I do non-classical playing is to get out of the tempo mud and sit in the middle of a great groove...

Envoy

...the dreamer that remains...
#36
MKS
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult? 2006/09/24 05:18:10 (permalink)
As a rock/metal drummer. I can understand the frustration of playing to a click at first. You're accustomed to being the time keeper and not being dictated to. Heck, I could play guitar to a click no problem. But after a few days of relentless practice, playing drums to a click became very natural.

Some important things to remember:
If you don't have a good set of isolation headphones in studio, then that needs to be resolved ASAP.

If a drummer has a difficult time following a 1/4 click, try a 1/8 click.

If you have ever mixed a project that was recorded with a click, you will never ever want to do it without a click again. It makes mixing so much easier.

Have the guitars and bass record scratch tracks to a click. Pay close attention, because these yahoos tend to think they have perfect time but many don't. It is imperative that they have great meter on the scratch tracks.

Drummers, use the click as reference. Don't let it dictate feel. Don't be afraid to be a little in front or behind the beat.

THIS SPACE FOR RENT
#37
nachivnik
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult? 2006/09/24 06:20:53 (permalink)
But certainly playing percussion is different than playing a kit. Percussion is usually dependent upon someone else for tempo. Bass, snare, hihat or ride, and it's the drummer setting the tempo. Surrendering that control to a machine is an adjustment. Can it be made? Sure. I recall reading that Metallica, at least on their earlier albums (and probably subsequent) played along with drum machine programming of all the drum parts. Lars would program them all, then play along exactly as he programmed them. I think the important thing for the original poster is to be sure that the drummer has practiced the music using a click. A studio is the wrong place to first play along with a click. The drummer has likely already developed an idea for how the song should feel, including tempo, pacing, etc.

I prefer a non-musical beep beep beep beep. It's audible. Natural sounds are more difficult for me to hear because they blend in too much. The click needs to be loud enough too. That can make a big difference too.
#38
Nick P
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult? 2006/09/24 09:07:50 (permalink)
Playing with a click is a skill, just like reading music. It doesn't necessarily mean a good or bad musician. However many top musicians would argue that a true craftsman should be able to play comfortably with a metronome.

BTW, a quarter note click is absolutely a benchmark reference for playing with a click, so I disagree with Clydewinder on that.

If any of you are pianists and have any Chopin piano books, Schirmer editions, there's a very enlightening profile of Chopin the teacher, and how he insisted that his students play in perfect time with a metronome. This coming from a composer who wrote so much piano music that would be judged upon listening to be anything but metronomic.

Drums-wise, I agree that a drummer must be able to play as perfectly as possible with a click, and then inject an acceptable "feel" or "groove" to the performance.

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#39
MotorMind
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult? 2006/09/24 09:25:29 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: newbie1000

Why is it very easy to play guitar or bass to a clicktrack, but very difficult to play drums to a click??


Because, as a general rule, drummers refuse to practice.
#40
daveny5
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult? 2006/09/24 09:29:34 (permalink)
Good drummers can. Bad drummers can't.

Dave
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#41
gbarrett
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult? 2006/09/24 09:46:24 (permalink)
In 10 years of using a click with a live band, including drummer, I've found that most drummers have never been taught to play a consistent tempo. It's not their fault, that's the way they were taught. I remember when I started using a hardware sequencer more than 20 years ago, it was really tough to play keys and stay on click. Now, it's simple and not an issue. Most of the time the issue is that the drummer who has been playing for any length of time has been told by many people how good he or she is. When you ask them to play to a click, they feel they are being punished and usually respond that way. In my experience with several drummers over the last 15 years, when it is fully explained to them the benifits of using a click, they will work to make it happen. I had an experience quite a few years ago when I introduced the click to a new drummer, he freaked and started to walk out. He made the comment, "real drummers don't use clicks!" I called him the next day and suggested he watch a Dave Weckl dvd I had. On the dvd, Dave mentions of use of using a click with other parts as a way to improve your playing. He touted the use of computers and a click as a way to learn accuracy and once a drummer learned to USE a click instead of being a slave to it, the drummer could have more freedom and expression. My drummer came back to rehearsal and ended up being one of the best drummers I've worked with.

Suggestion: If you're having trouble with the click and a live drummer, use different tones in the click until you find one that the drummer can live with. NEVER use a kick or snare. Keep it innocuous - like a closed hi-hat, tambourine, or cowbell. Then the click is not competing with the drummer.
#42
pdlstl
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult? 2006/09/24 10:10:08 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: MKS
<snip>
If you have ever mixed a project that was recorded with a click, you will never ever want to do it without a click again. It makes mixing so much easier.
<snip>


Amen my brother!
Drummers? Don't need 'em. I play bluegrass...!

Please click to view gear.

http://studiofifty-five.com/Equipment.html

http://studiofifty-five.com/
#43
Xavier
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult? 2006/09/24 10:22:02 (permalink)
In the end it's music. It's all about feel! Would anyone of us artists like music if it wasn't for the feel of it?

So just because someone can't play to a click does that make them worthless? No, not if in the end they add the right feel to the music. If someone can't play to a click I stress that is a very important thing for them to work on. It should be part of their daily practice. But I don't tell them to sell their instruments and give music up, or comit harakiri because they are dishonoring the rest of us who can play with a click.

The point being every situation has it's own solution. Not just different people but different songs. Sometimes a wood-block click, sometimes a hi-hat click, sometime a loop, sometimes no click at all. Different note durations work for different songs and music styles. I've even started with a click and muted it after several measures. There is a reason we have all these options in Sonar...

And yes, when playing right on time with a click, the click sound will dissapear at any points a drum is supposed to fall perfectly on the beat. Musicians that have excellent internal time actually seem to be keeping time for the click. Like anything else, it takes practice.


#44
Clydewinder
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult? 2006/09/24 11:12:01 (permalink)
it's just difficult for your average drummer to play with a different "thing" keeping time. natural variations in timing ( stepping up into choruses, fast guitar solos ) are lost in the dust.

you know what the average drummer gets on his IQ test?

..
.
..
.
..
.
..


DROOL.



just kidding yo, some of my best friends are drummers. they just wear bibs now.

The Poodle Chews It.


#45
feedback50
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult? 2006/09/24 12:08:47 (permalink)
My 2 cents... I find drumming to a click in the studio is very different than playing live. I find it difficult myself, but I attribute that to my own inexperience in playing to a click track. I record some bands that use a few backing tracks in their live performance (orchestration, loops, etc), which usually includes a click mix that only the drummer can hear. The challenge for them is hearing the click in a high volume situation. The drummer wears cans, but you can't always get the isolation you need to hear the click clearly. One drummer I work with insists that the click be done with a cowbell tone (I know, "I gotta fevah....and the prescription is ....more cowbell"). At any rate that's what comes through his headphones during recording and performance, and he is the best drummer I've ever seen at staying in the groove while playing to a click. He can hear the cowbell cut through the mix no matter what.
#46
Kicker
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult? 2006/09/24 12:32:29 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Ogis

Because drummers are the worst musicians in a band.



Okay, thats messed up. I am a drummer of 10 years (and I'm only 25)... I took lessons for 6 years, and like to think I'm not too bad.

Let me explain something to you. Drummers have a NATURAL feel for rhythm. When you put a metrodome (I know I spelled that wrong) to us, you throw us off. Simple as that. We have our own feel, within our head. As soon as we start to feel someting outside our own natural rhythm, we get thrown off. Its not a simple 4 count on a hi hat, its in us. If you have a drummer that cant keep time, you dont have a drummer. Simple as that. A true drummer sould be able to do, off beats, funk, fills, etc, with out any help. What throws us off the most (within a band), is a screw up on part of the bass. drums and bass are the backbone of rhythm in a song. Do not, I repeat do not say we have no talent. How about this, try doing paradoodles, whilch is tapping R = right, L = Left.. RLRRLRLL, LRLLRLRR.. And see how fast you can do it to time


I think that he meant that drummers are usually the worst musicians in the band - which doesn't really say anything about talent. To be a proficient drummer you do not have to know any theory (99% of theory is related pitch, not rythm). To be proficient with other instruments, you must know at least the basics.

Personally, I don't agree with this point of view. I think that drummers are usually the second-worst musicians in the band. I save the top spot for vocalists.
#47
kevo
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult? 2006/09/24 12:32:32 (permalink)
As mentioned earlier...
There is no ‘I' in drummer
There is no ‘We' in drummer...

But there is an ‘Umm......er.....'

Tell a drummer his playing is bad, and his immediate response is... "OH! I can play louder!"

I've been a drummer for many years. Having the ability to play to a click is a must.
Many drummers feel they have a natural feel for the beat. And most of them with this attitude are also not very good.

A drummer who does alright at live performance, many times will suck in the studio.
But you will never find a studio session drummer who sucks at live performance.

Have we beat this topic to death yet?

#48
ByronSanto
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult? 2006/09/24 12:40:06 (permalink)
My gigging band is 150% sequenced so my drummer is forced to play with a click. After 14 years of using a click my drummer has developed the technique of playing ahead or behind the click. So the drums now have movement. He can make the tempo appear that it's rushing or dragging and all while staying in time. Playing in time is critical but being able to play the entire kit or one inst of the kit ahead or behind the beat is critical for a grooving drum beat.

Through our 14 years of working together we have also developed quite a few tricks in using a click track.

Regards,
Byron Santo
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www.myspace.com/byronsanto 

#49
TheFingers
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult? 2006/09/24 14:13:11 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Envoy

Susan,

Good point, and since I make the bulk of my living by playing in a symphony orchestra I'm no stranger to that! However, the difference is that while one would have click running in phones the entire track while reading, one could hardly stare at a visual metronome in the same fashion. The other main point is that while we look at the conductor (if for no other reason than to validate his/her existence), we aren't sitting and watching every beat to keep locked - that's what the ears are for. Conductors serve more of a purpose for tempo changes and dynamic phrasing. Besides, it is a rare day indeed where you have a conductor with a great internal clock! One of the main reasons I do non-classical playing is to get out of the tempo mud and sit in the middle of a great groove...

Envoy
Like the conductor, you can see the met out of the corner of your eye.

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I'd rather be playing Bass:
#50
Dale Aston
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult? 2006/09/24 14:27:01 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Ogis

Because drummers are the worst musicians in a band.





Let me explain something to you. Drummers have a NATURAL feel for rhythm. When you put a metrodome (I know I spelled that wrong) to us, you throw us off. Simple as that. We have our own feel, within our head. As soon as we start to feel someting outside our own natural rhythm, we get thrown off. Its not a simple 4 count on a hi hat, its in us.
Well put! Precisely why The Beatles became GREAT when Ringo joined the band. Until then they didn't have that "spark" which is greatness.


Hear my Sonar work at ..... http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=23718
#51
zungle
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult? 2006/09/24 15:01:05 (permalink)
This threads drug on way to long..........


Why is it very easy to play guitar or bass to a clicktrack, but very difficult to play drums to a click??


Seriously?................You haven't practiced enough.
#52
CAW
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult? 2006/09/24 15:38:48 (permalink)
Drummers (and other instrumentalists) with accurate time sense are very hard to find. How many of us have had to stop a rehearsal and say, "You're rushing it." or "You're slowing down, it's dragging." to the drummer or other players in the band. I think we guitarist/songwriters play well with click now a days simply because that is what we have when we are by ourselves. Why should a drummer play with a click in his studio, he is the click. It's all about practice and what you're used to. Of all the bands I have been a part of, only one of them had a drummer with accurate time sense and he was a joy to play along with. Whenever we performed in front of other musicians he was the star after the show and we all knew it was just a matter of time before he moved on.

Great things happen in a vacuum.

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#53
FretWizz
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult? 2006/09/24 17:20:59 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Sid Viscous

Here's an example of how screwed up drummers are:
I write the vocals
I write the guitars
I write the bass
but if I even dare to make a suggestion about a drum part, the drummer freaks




Time for a new drummer then.
#54
newbie1000
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INTELLIGENT SEQUENCING SOFTWARE 2006/09/24 17:21:06 (permalink)
Has anyone heard of any sequencing software or hardware that is able to play the sequence in a tempo that is set by the drummer in real-time via the actual drum beat (and via suitable controller like e-kit) so that, essentially, the sequencer is playing to the drummer and not vice versa?
#55
FretWizz
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult? 2006/09/24 17:24:09 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Ogis
Drummers have a NATURAL feel for rhythm. When you put a metrodome (I know I spelled that wrong) to us, you throw us off.


Just keep practising mate.
You'll get it eventually.
#56
saturdaysaint
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RE: INTELLIGENT SEQUENCING SOFTWARE 2006/09/24 17:27:09 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: newbie1000

Has anyone heard of any sequencing software or hardware that is able to play the sequence in a tempo that is set by the drummer in real-time via the actual drum beat (and via suitable controller like e-kit) so that, essentially, the sequencer is playing to the drummer and not vice versa?


http://circular-logic.com/

Check out the videos!
#57
mildew
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult? 2006/09/24 17:30:02 (permalink)
i like 8th note hats for a click - very loud in the cans - then as long as you are in time, your hats and the click merge into one. "dominant" drummers are generally unable to record to a click - after decades of considering themselves "the boss" of the timekeeping, they just cant bow down to a metronomic feel.

most commercial click drummers are metronomic and a bit lacking in feel. the famous and highly paid ones know when to push or pull

m
#58
gbarrett
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult? 2006/09/24 17:40:10 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: mildew

most commercial click drummers are metronomic and a bit lacking in feel. the famous and highly paid ones know when to push or pull

m



I don't agree with this statement. I've played with many drummers, even quite famous ones (yes, you'd know their names if I mentioned them). Good drummers, like any other musician, can play well in just about any situation. Bad ones can't. Usually good drummers, like any other musician, have good and workable attitudes, bad ones don't.

When a musician works for me, they play using my rules - #1 rule: I don't hire attitudes, I hire musicians.
#59
mildew
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult? 2006/09/24 17:50:48 (permalink)
i mean the pro drummers who play on adverts / tribute bands / "in the pit"

natural groove can be the enemy of a click track. guys who have full rudimental and reading skills, but who lack funk tend to fill the workmanlike drummer roles. i know guys who can sightread to a click bang on, but are boring at a jam session.

the best drummers of course have both.

re all the drummer hate in this thread - we all know they bring it on themselves. i allways wondered why drummers were so dumb, but when i started drumming in bands i realised that its playing the drums that makes you dumb! - no chords or notes to remember, no lyrics to learn, 4/4 scam all the changes - drummers hardly ever have to apply themselves, so they hardly ever do. they think its just all fun bashing.


m
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