Well, if you want to see and incredible group of musicians, ignore the acts and watch the pit at a Circ de Soleil performance.

This is so interesting... as a person who also has had much symphonic experience, we do use visual cues from a conductor, but by performance (or studio) time we are so well rehearsed and we've played the piece a dozen or more times - the conductor becomes something in our peripheral vision that just keeps us all in sync. Can a conductor conduct prerecorded music accurately? Of course not. He can come close, but only after practicing with that same piece over and over... believe me, I know... I took courses in orchestral conducting years ago and that was part of our training.

The key here is discipline. Practice. Listening. Being a musician and a sportsman. As far as drummers by nature not being musicians, I can't believe someone had the sightlessness to even suggest that! It's been said that the most difficult instrument to play is the simple triangle; it is so transparent and must be absolutely perfectly timed..

As a classically trained musician, what I can say is that the two types of musicianship are very different. I have to do things in rock 'n' roll that I never would have done in a symphonic setting, and vice versa.

With this in mind, might I suggest a pulsing light or the visible metronome? Visible in the periphery this would probably come closest to a conductor. But not just off-on ; it would have to be a ramp effect - triangular or sinusoidal brightness response. Think of it this way - a conductor is an analog stimulus - a click is a digital stimulus. We can sense rate of change between beats thru a conductor - you can't with a click.

ORIGINAL: newbie1000

Why is it very easy to play guitar or bass to a clicktrack, but very difficult to play drums to a click??

In three pages of replies , I'm sure you have the technical answer, so I won't go into detail...

If you are having problems then there are two solutions.


The drummer needs to go back to square one and learn to play and count his music OR ...........................

Have the bass player play to the click and the drummer play with the bass player as his groove click.

This can achieve a good grooved rhythm section in a recording...
asuuming you are recording both with no crosstalk to separate tracks.



Key thing is to lay down a groove.

ORIGINAL: mildew
re all the drummer hate in this thread - we all know they bring it on themselves. i allways wondered why drummers were so dumb, but when i started drumming in bands i realised that its playing the drums that makes you dumb! - no chords or notes to remember, no lyrics to learn, 4/4 scam all the changes - drummers hardly ever have to apply themselves, so they hardly ever do. they think its just all fun bashing.

Ouch... this thread really is beginning to aim for the prize.

cAPSLOCK (a drummer)

well..

Being a drummer and reading this rediculoulsy long thread, I of course have to contribute to it's lengthyness! I read a lot of people complaining about drummers that can't keep time, but I just have to say nothing is worse than trying to drum with people who can't keep time either. Being a drummer is kinda like having a girlfriend, you have to know when to give in as well as take control. In a well balanced situtation, the band I'm playing with needs my groove to keep time for them just as much as I need to listen to them and decide when and what to play. A drummer should never rely on his band to keep time, just as you shouldn't have to hang on every quarter note in a click track.. (there's a difference between listening and relying) so when it comes to drumming, sense of time is internal even though your ears are giving you the tempo. It just comes down to experience as with anything else.. yeah playing in exact time is really important, but feeling it in excellent time is vital. I will admit though, that a lot of drummers without much/any recording experience might have a bit trouble with good time, because in a live environment timing is synergistic and often diverges. They can get away with that until studio time comes, then it's releaved how much the band's sense of time has been poorly infulenced by a drummer with who hasn't been assertive enough.. and being assertive means listening just as much as playing!!!

ORIGINAL: FretWizz

ORIGINAL: Ogis
Drummers have a NATURAL feel for rhythm. When you put a metrodome (I know I spelled that wrong) to us, you throw us off.

Just keep practising mate.
You'll get it eventually.

Like I said, I can't play to a click, as I can't HEAR the click. I never said I can't keep straight time. After years of playing, if I still couldn't keep time, I'd of sold my kit ages ago. I can however play to a needle. I don't see why people act as it that is so strange ? Let me listen to the music. That needle clicks to, put it where everyone can hear it, and I can see it, and I can play to it. In the end what's the difference ? All I am tring to say is, that I try so hard o HEAR the click, I get thrown off. It's like if I was playing some Pantera type stuff and tring to hear someone whisper to me from across the room at the same time, it's just going to screw me up, I'd do better to use my own natural rhythm. It's not that I can't keep a tempo, because put a needle in front of me, and I'll stay with it fine, if I play something VERY light I can keep to a click, I just rarely play anything light. I don't get why that's so hard to understand ? But, nonetheless, my kit was stolen last year, by my crackhead neighbor, who is still in prision for it. And I can't afford 5 + grand for a new kit, so, it really doesn't matter anymore either way...

holy guacamole, this thread is THREE PAGES? That's hilarious. Are people really such drummer-hata's?

You ask anybody who has been in a band, a good drummer is worth their weight in gold.

If you take any project-studio project, especially electronic, and ask the question of how do you make it a worthwhile live experience, the answer is ALWAYS live drummer. FIRST (maybe taking exception of a Genesis-scale light show of course) and foremost.

Plus the answer to the original question is so obvious to everyone and has been stated here a billion times: groove. Hell, the MAJOR new feature in S6 which just came out is specifically tailored to trying to harness this component.

Three pages... man this is good stuff. More drummer fights!!!

ORIGINAL: mildew

the best recording drummers are bass players / keyboard players that just happen to play a bit of drums on the side. they are used to actually listening to the sounds the other people in making, not just egoing over the top.

i have played drums/bass/keys/guit/vox/bv's in band for decades. i know what im talking about when i say drumming makes you dumb.

if you only play the drums you are not really a musician. learn an instrument with notes, and PLEASE learn to set up your kit in under an hour:)


m

Have you lost your mind ? Or are you just tring to make yourself look bad ? Percussion isn't worth you even being considered a musican ? WTF are you talking about ? I mean, making YOURSELF look dumb isn't a good idea when tring to call me drumb.

BTW, I play keys, and bass also, but do you see me pretending to be better than I am because of it ? No. This thread is about drums. Talk about ego's, I think you need to check yours at the door on the way in... I could say more, but I'm being nice.

ORIGINAL: mildew

the best recording drummers are bass players / keyboard players that just happen to play a bit of drums on the side. they are used to actually listening to the sounds the other people in making, not just egoing over the top.

i have played drums/bass/keys/guit/vox/bv's in band for decades. i know what im talking about when i say drumming makes you dumb.

if you only play the drums you are not really a musician. learn an instrument with notes, and PLEASE learn to set up your kit in under an hour:)


m

Drumming doesn't make YOU dumb. Your fingers are doing a good job by themselves.

Again, you must only play crappy music.

Whether it be drummers, keyboard players, bass players, etc., QUALITY musicians can USE a metronome and not let themselves become a slave to it. With my band, you can hear the groove when you listen to the playback. None of us are dead on for every beat, BUT we USE the metronome as the bottom of the musical pyramid. The rest of us build on that. When you learn to USE the click, it brings great FREEDOM to rhythm section.

ORIGINAL: MKS



Drumming doesn't make YOU dumb. Your fingers are doing a good job by themselves.

Again, you must only play crappy music.

here is a song i recently produced - all instruments played by me, song written and sung by db grant.

http://rapidshare.de/files/34431131/4follower.mp3.html


m

ORIGINAL: bermuda

Accents, ghost notes, application of rudiments etc etc..kinda escapes the folks who care to insult drummers

LOL!

Accents, ghost notes, application of rudiments etc are the LAST thing a producer wants to hear from a recording drummer. Good tone, simple playing, metronomic and funky at the same time - thats "hit record" drumming.

Accents, ghost notes, application of rudiments = "stop showing off, play for the SONG" - silly drummers..

ORIGINAL: mildew

ORIGINAL: bermuda

Accents, ghost notes, application of rudiments etc etc..kinda escapes the folks who care to insult drummers

LOL!

Accents, ghost notes, application of rudiments etc are the LAST thing a producer wants to hear from a recording drummer. Good tone, simple playing, metronomic and funky at the same time - thats "hit record" drumming.

Accents, ghost notes, application of rudiments = "stop showing off, play for the SONG" - silly drummers..

I didn't realize you were talking about hit records. I thought you were saying that there was no such thing as drum music, of which you are wrong.

As for hit records:
Many hit records have a tonne of the things I mention. It's what separates many tunes from the mediocre nonsense...

Being that my primary instrument is drums, secondary is guitar and I listen to many hit records and not hit records I feel I have somewhat of an insight on what goes into drum tracks on hit records.

Why is it very easy to play guitar or bass to a clicktrack, but very difficult to play drums to a click??

I find it is more difficult to play drums to a click than it is to play guitar or bass.
It's relatively easy to keep one limb moving in time to the music, but when you add the other three, things get a little more difficult.

I find it far easier to play guitar or bass to a click than drums, and I am primarily a drummer (15 years as opposed to guitar/bass which I have played for only about 3) ..
and yes, I can play to a click.. I do it all the time both live and in the studio.
But it's one of those things that takes practice.. when I first started I couldn't do it very well, and even when I could managed to keep with the click, the feel stunk.
Ya just keep at it, and after a while you stop playing "to" the click and you start playing "with" it.
you can fiddle around with the feel, playing a little before, behind or on top of the click.. all different feels.

Because drummers are the worst musicians in a band.

I have heard other pretentious musicians make such claims. They are quite silly.

Here's an example of how screwed up drummers are:
I write the vocals
I write the guitars
I write the bass
but if I even dare to make a suggestion about a drum part, the drummer freaks

That is not an example of how screwed up "drummers" are so much, as an example of what appears to be a miscommunication between you and said drummer..
Apparently the drummer feels like he is a part of the band. Judging from the number of "I's" in your post, I would say YOU are the band.
You should be clear with your drummer and let him know that he works for you, and that you pay him a good wage to play things the way you want them. If he doesn't like it he can move along. He can either find another guy to pay him for his services, or maybe find a band where he can be part of a collaborative effort.
Good drummers are really easy to find though, so you should not have any trouble replacing him with someone more obedient.

ORIGINAL: bermuda

ORIGINAL: newbie1000

Why is it very easy to play guitar or bass to a clicktrack, but very difficult to play drums to a click??

In three pages of replies , I'm sure you have the technical answer, so I won't go into detail...

If you are having problems then there are two solutions.


The drummer needs to go back to square one and learn to play and count his music OR ...........................

Have the bass player play to the click and the drummer play with the bass player as his groove click.

This can achieve a good grooved rhythm section in a recording...
asuuming you are recording both with no crosstalk to separate tracks.



Key thing is to lay down a groove.

A very good idea.

It only takes a minimal amount of practice to allow the met to be a reference, and not let it dictate the groove.