PBLOXAM
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2007/06/13 08:25:10
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This is one strange post!!!! Almost seems as though some people shouldn't be playing music with the vindictive attitudes portrayed here...Attack on drummers or anyone with bad time......
Bad time come from not practicing with a metronome or click....I think most left out the main reason...subdivisions....
Lack of ability to subdivide within any time signature is usually due to.......lack of practice....
The difference between being "self-taught" and "schooled" - most are self-taught.....
All these things are learned if you go through the proper channels in learning drums....Most people who can sight read
have a firm grasp of subdivisions and time....regardless of instrument...
However, most people don't practice in a band context to a metronome...they "jam" together and usually have "fun" doing it!!!!
Seems like this is no longer acceptable!!!!!
Peace!!! and have fun with music!!!
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Roflcopter
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2007/06/13 08:29:57
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Just discovered even SessionDrummer 2 needs a clicktrack - no kidding: I tried to get that 8-bar rock 1 thing to loop, just inserted the midi in the track and voila - but it didn't sound any good at the end - found it's a tiny bit too short. Created a clicktrack with Audacity (VEEEEEEEEEEERY handy!) and tossed that in too, set the length of the loop to THAT (exactly 00:16:00, not 00:15:25, CW), and now it loops *perfectly*. So, even dead drummers need a metronome, apparently. 
I'm a perfectionist, and perfect is a skinned knee.
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SteveD
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2007/06/13 08:37:15
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ORIGINAL: pianodano
ORIGINAL: Ognis
Because drummers are the worst musicians in a band.
Let me explain something to you. Drummers have a NATURAL feel for rhythm. When you put a metrodome (I know I spelled that wrong) to us, you throw us off. Simple as that. .
Man, how things change !. Back in the "disco Era" of the 70's when 10 piece horn bands were the norm and the drummer played everything behind the beat except the kick, your method would have been a real hoot. I can see it right now. Horn section players falling all over each other and REAL dancers numbering on average, 200 - 400 people on the floor in the average beach club around here falling down on the floor trying to follow the drummer who is in his own little world. Yep, he wouln't have lasted 1 night.
Hate to burst your bubble but, even then, drummers worked to a in ear metronome with tempos predetermined by the bands arranger, not the drummer.
Playing to a click is difficult for some people BECAUSE they can't keep time, because, they haven't practiced it for years on end. To busy recording, I suppose.
Amen! Great post.
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big d
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2007/06/13 09:04:45
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taking a strong rhythm take of the tune lay it down solid, mix a little, burn a copy, give to ur drummer to rehearse with for a week or two. this dose wonders. if u lay down ur rhythm trk with the click on & in it it help the drummer alot but, it also comes down to seat time . the guys in my church band are really great people to work with & they really want it to be right but the lack of seat time has really pushed me to come up with creative ideas to overcome this age old problum, a great thread! iv done the above i speak of & it has made a difference but, there are still problums iv said it once il say it a million times there is no replacement for human displacement thats the way GOD made us . thats why classics that are still getting airplay 30 years later -put a metrenome to those tunes ul be shocked
post edited by big d - 2007/06/13 09:10:50
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losguy
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2007/06/13 09:21:45
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ORIGINAL: Honest_Al
All good musicians have a natural feel and an internal clock.
A metronome is " throwing you off" ??? ......he always practiced at home with a metronome. The teacher I'm talking about used a metronome in the lessons off and on and was very very strict about learning what strict time was all about.
Steve- good posts..as usual ;)
talking about the metronome again..
MKS (who mentioned on page 2 the 1/8 click if 1/4 doesn't seem to work)..and everyone -
IMHO one of the harder/best things to practice for getting a "natural" feel (playing around time or exactly on time- first of all you got to have decent timing for the hits themselves) but still play in a constant tempo and constrain yourself to one or a small range of BPM changes is the opposite of "more click"/ more sub divisions like 1/8 or 1/16 -
practice in each session with less and less of beats that have a click on them..you'll need one of those nicer metronomes for that or a drum machine/sequencer..
so, starting with a 1/4 metronome and getting used to a certain tempo gradually try leaving just the 1 and 3.. beats 2 and 4..or any other combination (like 1..2.._.._)
until you just leave the FIRST beat of each measure! this would give you a nice gap of 2-3 or even 4 seconds if you practice on the slower grooves/bpm's !
the trick is of course to fall exactly on that single ONE of those next measures.. after some practice you can really do it..for some it won't be so comfortable..(and here we go back to the talent thing;)
even try longer periods (2 measures) of no metronome besides beat 1..it's a nice feeling to play on those large gaps and then falling exactly on a beat that you were expecting to appear then you know you really "feel" that tempo.. you're locked..metronome or not I thought I'd bump this. This is a great exercise, learning how to wean yourself from being pinged constantly. But also, it's probably better to attempt this after you can already keep time comfortably with more frequent metronome pings, i.e. quarter or half note. If your metronome is too "old school" to support down beat / half / quarter note pings, then you can still get the same effect by dividing your current BPM by 2 or 4 and calling that the down beat / half beat. Like any discipline, learning how to do this the first time will not be fun. For a while, it may even drive you nuts and tempt you to pull your hair out. But don't do that (Minoxidil is expensive), just go out and take a walk, breathe some fresh air, sleep on it, and after a fashion, it will be like second nature to you. Great post Al, you are a benefactor to us all.
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fetishfrog
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2007/06/13 12:43:13
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Without a doubt the best drummers I've ever played with/recorded could all play to a click and groove so well that, when listening back to a recording, there was no thought about whether there was a click in the first place. The second best group could all play to a click but didn't necessarily groove like the first group. The timing would be good, but the feel was somewhat lacking. Still, this often produced usable but not necesarily inspiring drum tracks. The worst group could never play to a click, always complained that the click destroyed their feel, and really never produced anything worthwhile. I never did a session/jammed with a drummer who complained about click tracks that was worth a darn. I'm sure they're out there, but I've never met them.
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droddey
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2007/06/13 13:18:58
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I always set my metronome to double speed in order to help me keep good accurate time, not just on the drums but on all the bits. If you are trying to be really accurate and playing either a pretty sparse part that has few notes or one that has a lot of activity in a given measure or something for which some swing isn't a good thing, it really helps to have those in-between beats. There again, even if I felt I could get away without it, I would probably still do it just to be sure that everything stays tight. It's a crutch of course, but I'd rather be right than brave.
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Dyonisos
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2007/06/13 13:32:59
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Because, unless you give the drummer a Guinness before he/she attempts to play along with the click, they will not be able to differentiate the sound of the click from their own heart beating in anticipation of receiving the beer they will never get as a result of their unappreciated stature in the band. ORIGINAL: newbie1000
Why is it very easy to play guitar or bass to a clicktrack, but very difficult to play drums to a click??
www.reverbnation.com/dyonisos
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Honest_Al
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2007/06/13 14:22:16
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Hey Carlos, thank you for the kind words < *blush* > and for bumping that up
Singature!? I don't need no fu@#$% singature!
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losguy
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2007/06/13 14:58:21
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You betcha, Al. God bless...
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Jim Roseberry
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2007/06/13 16:04:02
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Why is it very easy to play guitar or bass to a clicktrack, but very difficult to play drums to a click?? Drummers tend to push/pull the tempo a bit... (As might a solo classical pianist) This can be done when playing to a click... but it's an aquired skill. Also, when acoustic drummers are slamming away, it's all to easy to drown out the click... and thus lose sync with it. Another explanation is that its easier to play guitar/bass/keys to a click because you're primarily playing 'around' the click... whereas a drummer is primariliy playing on top of it.
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SteveD
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2007/06/13 17:03:29
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ORIGINAL: Jim Roseberry
Why is it very easy to play guitar or bass to a clicktrack, but very difficult to play drums to a click??
Drummers tend to push/pull the tempo a bit...
(As might a solo classical pianist)
This can be done when playing to a click... but it's an aquired skill.
Also, when acoustic drummers are slamming away, it's all to easy to drown out the click... and thus lose sync with it.
Another explanation is that its easier to play guitar/bass/keys to a click because you're primarily playing 'around' the click... whereas a drummer is primariliy playing on top of it.
Use a click that cuts through the cue mix and use headphones that don't let the click bleed into the open drum mics. http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.asp?m=768738 Your drummer will then have only one reason for not playing with the click.
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Blades
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2007/06/13 21:12:38
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Another staunch supporter of being able to play to a click while maintaining a feel. Honestly, if you can't do this, you are really missing out on one of the most valuable and marketable drumming skills you can have. If you can play to a click and do it well, naturally, and often, you will be able to play "in time" without a click and people will KNOW they can depend on your timing. Then, you can work with the group you work with and get your ebb and flow, speeding up and slowing down intentionally together and knowing that when you go back to the original tempo, you are ON. I feel like you should be able to play equally comfortably WITH a metronome as without one.
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mudgel
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2007/06/13 23:25:34
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I've read every single post in this thread. Whew!
As primarily a guitarist and brass player as well as a dabbler in keys I'd say I have nothing but admiration for good drummer/percussionists who can play with and without a click as required by the circumstances.
I reckon I have great rythmn in my hands but cannot coordinate that with feet at the same time as in playing drums. No way. That takes physical and mental attributes I don't possess. Also I find programming the drums the most difficult of all my compositional challenges.
Best concert I've ever heard was a James Taylor gig in Sydney in the late 80's. Why was it the best? The drummer/percussionist made the show. Still sticks firmly in my memory as a real moment. There was just something I can't describe now but felt at the time.
As far as bad drummers go I've heard all the jokes but they apply equally to other musicians who's egos get in the way when you have to play with others. I started playing in marching bands playing trombone at about 12 years of age (after 4 years of learning guitar). Now do that for 4 hours while you're marching and you've got something to complain about. Not only keep time with music but in step with people in front of you and behind you doing some precision marching drill. And while you're playing you might hear the feint echo of a distant band/s in the same parade also playing. Man that was some difficult thing.
But you know what. You could do it. Because you practised. And that is the biggest downfall of many modern band situations. The lack of practice playing together with other musicians in a structured format. Music is all about structure balanced by feel.
That's my 2 cents.
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holderofthehorns
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2007/06/13 23:36:23
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I show 2 hours early to set up the stage.
Our drummer shows 1 hour early, just as I'm finished and going off for coffee.
I come back and he's cruising on some technical exercise. Really cruising.
I get closer. He's in the cans, too. Eyes are closed.
His Roland V-Drums has a click going. He doesn't even know I'm there.
He does this for about 45 minutes to the click track that he brought with him. Relentless. Very steady.
"OK. Now I'm warmed up. Let's play." He says.
And oh, yes, he plays. He studied with Garibaldi for a lot of years. Garibaldi made him use the click.
----------------------
During practice, we play "tempo games". Goes like this:
"Eric, this song goes at 140. Where's that?"
I answer him, "Click, click, click, click." (Snapping my fingers to a tempo.)
He checks me with the V-Drums metronome. Nope, that's 138. Pretty close.
Or he plays a click or a song, and I guess the tempo. Nope, off by 4 bpm. Darn.
---------------------
We practice with the click. We game with the click. We groove with the click. We record with the click.
When the lights go on and the mains go up, we turn OFF the click and play like we mean it.
Eric Anderson HolderOfTheHorns - It's a Viking thing.
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NYSR
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2007/06/13 23:51:01
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To answer the original question.
A guitar player can follow a click track because nothing he or she plays obscures the click and although the click track can be artificially perfect it stands out to the guitar player. But the click sound is obscured by the percussion. The drummer can only be in time with the click track by playing so on top of it that they cannot hear it. If the drummer feels the need to hear the click track they will inevitably drag behind it. The drummer that can play to a click track does it by getting the click to disappear and to stay away because it stays obscured OR the click track is done with eight notes so that the drummer can hear the intermediate notes.
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holderofthehorns
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2007/06/14 00:02:56
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I started classical piano lessons in kindergarten. My teacher had a metronome that ran continuoulsy. My next teacher taught ragtime. She had a metronome that ran continuously. Started trumpet in the 3rd grade. All my teachers used metronomes. Played bass with my dad at the age of 10 on gigs. He played a Baldwin B210 organ (late '60s and early '70s) and our drummer was a machine. Every studio I've ever worked in had clicks. Period. ---------------------------------- That being said, it's time for levitee Q. What's the difference between a drummer and a mutual fund? A. A mutual fund will eventually mature and produce income. Q. What's the difference between a drummer and a deep dish pizza? A. A deep dish pizza can feed a family of four. Enough bashing drummers: Q. What is perfect pitch? A. When you chuck the accordian in the dumpster, and it lands right on the banjo. Q. Which is bigger, a viola or a violin? A. They're the same size, but the violin looks smaller because the violin players have bigger heads. Q. Why does a banjo player leave his fingerpicks on the dash of his car? A. So that he can park in the handicapped zone. Three notes walk into a bar, a "D", an "F", and an "A". The bartender looks at them and says, "Sorry guys, I can't serve minors." So the "F" leaves, and the "D" and the "A" have a 5th between them. Four notes walk into a bar, a "C", an "Eb", an "F#", and an "A". The bartender looks at them and says, "Sorry guys, I can't serve Diminished 6ths." The very best drummers can and do play to clicks. It's required.
Eric Anderson HolderOfTheHorns - It's a Viking thing.
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droddey
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2007/06/14 00:26:33
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Don't forget:
Q: What do you call a person who hangs out with a bunch of musicians?
A: A drummer
:-)
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RnRmaChine
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2007/06/14 01:00:55
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My humble opinion as someone who played drums for a couple years when I was 11-13. I started piano at 8 switched to guitar at 12 cause no room or money for a piano my mamma told me. But the church I went to needed a drummer, they had a kit and they said I was a natural. I liked the compliment but I suck at drums now lol. Anyway, drummers should always practice with metronomes but NEVER record or perform to one. YUK EDIT: Although I do know this drummer that went to Berkly in CA he was so use to his metronome he would have it live where he could see the light ticin' away lol
post edited by RnRmaChine - 2007/06/14 01:08:41
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Vskills
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2007/06/14 01:34:50
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I had one experience of recording a drummer who could not play to a click. He was in a band I had just joined. We kicked him out immediately after finding out he couldn't play to the click.
I'm also a drummer and have no trouble playing to a loud click in my ears. I don't know if it's just because I practiced or if it's inate, but it's very very necessary. Especially if you want to sync midi to your song later...
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Roflcopter
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2007/06/14 04:50:54
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If the drummer feels the need to hear the click track they will inevitably drag behind it. The drummer that can play to a click track does it by getting the click to disappear and to stay away because it stays obscured OR the click track is done with eight notes so that the drummer can hear the intermediate notes. Ah, a more objective approach, and I think very close to the heart of the matter. I do think there's maybe also a simple physiological reason that might be involved - the timing mechanisms in our head that allow us to speak without stuttering (singing is easy, speech is clipped) are not equally well developed in all of us. Put on headphones with a slight delay, and EVERYBODY will start to stutter, and get hopelessly lost rhythmically. So I think that's somehow involved , but by no means implies that our 'normal' vocal stuttering is directly the 'culprit' in this case, just trying to make a connection that I think could very well turn out to be a valid one. Some drummers might just lack the talent to switch off their 'internal' earphones, pick up the wrong beat, and go out of synch. Anyone thinks this is exaggerated, fire up sonar, put on the headphone, plug in your mike and put in a nice delay and start a speech, and I wish you good luck. You never knew you had it in you. D-d-d-d-d-dats all, folks, without trying.
I'm a perfectionist, and perfect is a skinned knee.
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Blades
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2007/06/14 08:30:52
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The drummer that can play to a click track does it by getting the click to disappear and to stay away because it stays obscured Very true - usually the advice I give to people who have a hard time with a click is "if you can hear it, you're off", because a lot of people will listen FOR the click so they feel like they are on, but the trick is to ignore it best you can until it just blends with what you are doing. If you have natural internal rhythm, it will make it easy to maintain this. Some drummers might just lack the talent to switch off their 'internal' earphones, pick up the wrong beat, and go out of synch No offence intended, but these people shouldn't be drummers. You wouldn't say "Some singers just have a problem hearing tones and sometimes are just off pitch and can't get back on" and say that they are still a good singer. There are FEW exceptions to this: Bob Dylan was somehow accepted regardless of how bad his voice is, Punk Rock, etc...
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PBLOXAM
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2007/06/14 08:50:06
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Been playing drums for 30 years....love playing with or without click....you shouldn't hear the click if you are the drummer..
To hear the click means you are off time....usually....listen to guys like simon phillips, vinnie colauita, weckl, and many others who use them extensively...all would do well to follow suite...
Also there are just as many guitarists, bassists, keys, horns that can't lock on to a click.....I see them every day...
On stage, in the studio......speed up, slow down.....
All thinking they have great time.....the egotist of music.......Guitarist and singers....
No wonder they don't have events like modern drummer festivals...they'd kill each other with their ego's...quit
turning your backs on others and show them what you do!!!!!
Wow!!!!
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SteveD
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2007/06/14 09:56:17
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ORIGINAL: Vskills
I'm also a drummer and have no trouble playing to a loud click in my ears. I don't know if it's just because I practiced or if it's inate, but it's very very necessary. Especially if you want to sync midi to your song later...
Bingo. ORIGINAL: PBLOXAM
To hear the click means you are off time....usually....listen to guys like simon phillips, vinnie colauita, weckl, and many others who use them extensively...all would do well to follow suite...
... and Bingo.
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Blackwaters End
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2007/06/14 12:51:34
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I'm mostly a guitar player and bass player who dabbles a bit with drums. Playing guitar or bass to a click seems relatively easy, drums are much harder for me. The funny thing is, I can always tell as I'm playing (guitar or bass) if I'm a little bit off, but it's usually too late. I just keep practicing until I get it. I think it's a skill that can definitely be learned - it's not quite as simple as "you have it or you don't". I just don't practice enough these days. But in response to whoever said that a large dance band would have dancers falling all over the place without a steady rhythm: Have you seen some people dance? I think they will fall all over themselves no matter how good the band plays. I've even seen people dancing to stuff like 9/8 and they had no clue what the time sig was...they dance just like it was 4/4. I play bass with a steel drum band and have had the opportunity to work with several drummers of varying levels. The one kid I played with most is extremely smart, very technical, learned tons of rudiments, can write out anything he hears, etc. But I suspect he never practiced with a click. His timing is all over the place. On recordings he seems to drag a bit, but I'm probably playing a bit ahead of the beat. Other drummers I've played the same music with kept very good time and it was a joy. Suddenly I wasn't trying to lead the entire rhythm section alone and had a little more freedom to improvise or just enjoyed falling further into whatever groove the drummer laid down. But every experience has been good...just one more piece of data in the musical journey.
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Ognis
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2007/06/14 13:00:28
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ORIGINAL: droddey
Don't forget:
Q: What do you call a person who hangs out with a bunch of musicians?
A: A drummer
:-)
Well, I'm glad this is a guitar forum... That's not an ignorant, arrogant, and offence remark... Nope, not at all... Thanks for sharing....
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barlowjam
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2007/06/14 16:19:54
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post edited by barlowjam - 2007/08/01 21:29:45
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Jose7822
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2007/06/14 16:35:00
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I think its much easier, and more natural (at least in my experiece) to play with a click on 2 and 4 only. I don't know about others, but for me having a metronome click on 2 & 4 automatically switches my brain to swing mode (especially on fast tempos). But not if it's a slow tempo.
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losguy
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2007/06/14 16:47:42
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Answer to thread topic: "Because nothing worthwhile is ever easy."
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droddey
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2007/06/14 18:11:10
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"I don't know about others, but for me having a metronome click on 2 & 4 automatically switches my brain to swing mode (especially on fast tempos). But not if it's a slow tempo. "
It would put me into Reggae mode, which means I'd have to go find a giant spleef and all that. Way too much trouble...
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