newbie1000
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playing to a click. Why so difficult?
Why is it very easy to play guitar or bass to a clicktrack, but very difficult to play drums to a click??
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Jose7822
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2006/09/23 22:36:49
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Sid Viscous 
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2006/09/23 22:36:55
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Because drummers are the worst musicians in a band.
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nachivnik
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2006/09/23 22:46:47
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Because the click and the drum part are competing bases for the rest of the music. It's also difficult for a drummer to play along with a pianist who thinks he should set the time, or a singer. Those are hallmarks of musicians and singers who have little experience working with others. They think the whole world revolves around them. The drummer sets the tempo and the feel. It can be difficult to adapt to a click because it competes for the job. I can play keyboards or guitar to a click without difficulty. Playing drums to a click is more difficult.
post edited by Howdy - 2006/09/23 23:01:02
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Sid Viscous
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2006/09/23 22:49:26
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Here's an example of how screwed up drummers are: I write the vocals I write the guitars I write the bass but if I even dare to make a suggestion about a drum part, the drummer freaks 
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nachivnik
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2006/09/23 22:54:34
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I read an interview with Stewart Copeland where he compared himself as a composer with himself as a drummer. He wouldn't like Stew the drummer to take the liberties he took in The Police with Stew the composer's work. I'd like to acknowledge what was written in another thread that the whole band does set the tempo -- the tension, etc. is important. My band recorded a song to a click once, at the insistence of the engineer who wondered where the life went. It was a quick and free session, and we were new, so we were obedient. Dull dull dull. I like my click track for composing, not playing live. FWIW.
post edited by Howdy - 2006/09/23 23:09:02
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Jose7822
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2006/09/23 22:55:11
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Because the click and the drum part are competing bases for the rest of the music. It's also difficult for a drummer to play along with a pianist who thinks he should set the time, or a singer. Those are hallmarks of musicians and singers who have little experience working with others. They think the whole world revolves around them. The drummer sets the tempo and the feel. It can be difficult to adapt to a click because it competes for the job. I can play keyboards or guitar to a click without difficulty. Playing drums to a click is more difficult. It all boils down to the same thing I said in the beginning, bad time feel. If a drummer, out of all instruments, can't play with a click then he rarely practiced with a metronome (if at all). Practice with a metronome everyday = play perfectly with a click....exception: arhythmic person.
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nachivnik
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2006/09/23 22:56:49
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Susan G
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2006/09/23 23:11:49
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Hi newbie1000- Why is it very easy to play guitar or bass to a clicktrack, but very difficult to play drums to a click?? After all the "how to humanize a drum track" questions on the forum, this is kind of refreshing!  My guess (and it's only a guess, since I'm not one) is that drummers are used to setting the tempo, not following it. They should of course be able to play in time, even with a click track, but they might also be tempted to slow down or speed up almost imperceptibly, depending on what else is going on. That could be a good thing. If they just can't stick to the click no matter what, then that's a different story, and you need to get a different drummer!  -Susan
2.30 gigahertz Intel Core i7-3610QM; 16 GB RAMWindows 10 x64; NI Komplete Audio 6.SONAR Platinum (Lexington) x64
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zungle
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2006/09/23 23:20:15
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Guess there's no "I" in drummer.
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Sid Viscous
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2006/09/23 23:25:45
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ORIGINAL: zungle
Guess there's no "I" in drummer.
Ain't no "we" either...
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Xavier
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2006/09/23 23:51:37
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While a drummers job is to keep tempo, it's also their job to set the rhythmic FEEL, or groove.
A lone click has no heart, feel, or groove.
A drummer has to practice playing to click enough to be able to introduce a songs feel to the cold perfect timing of the click, while keeping that feel alive. Without that practice, a drummer tends to concentrate on the click too much and not only the timing varies, but the groove varies -- in all the wrong places.
I've worked with a drummer like this and I've found that it's actually a positive feature of his and I just have to alter the recording approach to fit him (With practice he has gotten much better with just a click). The reason it's positive because he can play absolutely brilliantly, groovy, and with great feel live. This is because his musical energy comes from playing with other people. He can very easily feel what everyone else is doing and where eveyone is going and compensate yet keep eveyone on track and in the groove. But he can't feel that non-human click.
So in recording with that particular drummer, I pick the key rhythm instrument (bass, guitar, keys) and play along with him in headphones while he is recording the drums. Get a good headphone mix with a strong click, the rhythm instrument, and drum bleed if needed, and he is good to go.
As a drumming practice, I suggest playing to just a click for 1/2 hour at a specific tempo. With no songs in mind! Just create beats to the chosen tempo until they groove. After making a beat groove for a few minutes change the beat. After a while it will be obvious how much of a tool the click can be. The coolest thing is that one can make 120 BPM feel fast, slow, laid back, rushed, funky, hyper, etc. while with all those feels being perfectly in time. When this is discovered the click becomes a friend.
Hope that helps...
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Ognis
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2006/09/24 00:08:03
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Because drummers are the worst musicians in a band.
Okay, thats messed up. I am a drummer of 10 years (and I'm only 25)... I took lessons for 6 years, and like to think I'm not too bad. Let me explain something to you. Drummers have a NATURAL feel for rhythm. When you put a metrodome (I know I spelled that wrong) to us, you throw us off. Simple as that. We have our own feel, within our head. As soon as we start to feel someting outside our own natural rhythm, we get thrown off. Its not a simple 4 count on a hi hat, its in us. If you have a drummer that cant keep time, you dont have a drummer. Simple as that. A true drummer sould be able to do, off beats, funk, fills, etc, with out any help. What throws us off the most (within a band), is a screw up on part of the bass. drums and bass are the backbone of rhythm in a song. Do not, I repeat do not say we have no talent. How about this, try doing paradoodles, whilch is tapping R = right, L = Left.. RLRRLRLL, LRLLRLRR.. And see how fast you can do it to time 
post edited by Ogis - 2006/09/24 00:25:53
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Ognis
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2006/09/24 00:09:11
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oops, hit the quote button, sorry.
post edited by Ogis - 2006/09/24 00:24:05
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nachivnik
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2006/09/24 00:13:24
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However, playing to a click can help improve timing, and train how to get that feel with better rhythm. My high school music theory teacher listened to a recording of my band once and told me I was rushing my drum fills. He was right. I needed to correct that, regardless of how it felt to me, it sounded slightly rushed. So, both are necessary.
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saturdaysaint
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2006/09/24 00:25:45
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Could it be the KIND of click that throws many drummers? I can play guitar, bass or keys to a quarter-note click pretty easily, but when I set that up for a highly skilled and experienced drummer I worked with, he quickly told me to mix up the beat (I think we ended up using some hip-hop ACID loop). Maybe the standard click is too easily hidden by the drummers' own playing, which is why he wanted something a little bit busier. Perhaps drummers with less recording experience wouldn't know to ask for this, making it look like they simply can't play to a fixed beat.
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Kangotwang
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2006/09/24 00:34:13
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Most instruments can play with a click because when they're of just a little they can almost stop playing and let the beat catch up or vise versa. If a drummer does that, it all goes to pieces and if they are really feeling a groove the natural ting to do is rush the beat just like the other instruments. The bass player is the one who should be holding the time together due to his part being more natural for just rythmn. If we could all play together as one like we're suppose to, this question wouldn't be asked.
It's not what you do, It's why you do it.
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Geokauf
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2006/09/24 00:44:38
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ORIGINAL: saturdaysaint
Could it be the KIND of click that throws many drummers? I can play guitar, bass or keys to a quarter-note click pretty easily, but when I set that up for a highly skilled and experienced drummer I worked with, he quickly told me to mix up the beat (I think we ended up using some hip-hop ACID loop). Maybe the standard click is too easily hidden by the drummers' own playing, which is why he wanted something a little bit busier. Perhaps drummer's with less recording experience wouldn't know to ask for this, making it look like they simply can't play to a fixed beat.
Hello, You are correct. The problem is if you feed the drummer a 1/4 or 1/8 note click he can't hear it (his own hits occur on those beats). He can only hear the click when he gets off which is no help. We would feed a 16th note click so the drummer had a chance of hearing something in between his own playing. But the 16th note click wasn't fool proof and the drummer (even the top pros I worked with) would start to get off. When that happened the engineer would just fade the click out of the drummer's cans since the tempo was already set. We would feed the click only to the drummer and the rest of the musicians (guitar, bass, keys) followed the drummer. Even with a click, a drummer's "human" feel comes through. The ACID solution is a very good idea. But the only reason that I would feed a click to the drummer was if I intended to comp from different takes. But that was back in the tape days. Today as long as the drummer is in the ballpark (tempo-wise) with timestretching you could fit any part of a take to any part of another take. So I don't see why you need to feed the drummer a click in the digital age. If the reason is because the drummer's timing is poor, then you should replace the drummer or MIDI in the back beat and let the drummer play the fills.
post edited by Geokauf - 2006/09/24 01:00:30
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Ognis
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2006/09/24 00:56:03
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ORIGINAL: Geokauf
ORIGINAL: saturdaysaint
Could it be the KIND of click that throws many drummers? I can play guitar, bass or keys to a quarter-note click pretty easily, but when I set that up for a highly skilled and experienced drummer I worked with, he quickly told me to mix up the beat (I think we ended up using some hip-hop ACID loop). Maybe the standard click is too easily hidden by the drummers' own playing, which is why he wanted something a little bit busier. Perhaps drummer's with less recording experience wouldn't know to ask for this, making it look like they simply can't play to a fixed beat.
Hello,
You are correct. The problem is if you feed the drummer a 1/4 or 1/8 note click he can't hear it (his own hits occur on those beats). He can only hear the click when he gets off which is no help. We would feed a 16th note click so the drummer had a chance of hearing something in between his own playing. But the 16th note click wasn't fool proof and the drummer (even the top pros I worked with) would start to get off. When that happened the engineer would just fade the click out of the drummer's cans since the tempo was already set. We would feed the click only to the drummer and the rest of the musicians (guitar, bass, keys) followed the drummer. Even with a click, a drummer's "human" feel comes through. The ACID solution is a very good idea. But the only reason that I would feed a click to the drummer was if I intended to comp from different takes. But that was back in the tape days. Today as long as the drummer is in the ballpark (tempo-wise) with timestretching you could fit any part of a take to any part of another take. So I don't see why you need to feed the drummer a click in the digital age. If the reason is because the drummer's timing is poor, then you should replace the drummer or MIDI in the back beat and let the drummer play the fills.
Thats what I was tring to say. Thing is with us drumers, if we are worth a damn, we sould be able to feel it on our own. You put the click, what happens is, we try so hard to hear the click, we get off just tring to hear it. Regardless if it's q, half, sixthenth, etc, timing. You try so hard to hear the click, you miss your own feel, which is what makes us what we are. best thing we can ask for as drumers, is a booth with some headphones, that allows us to hear ourself, as well as the band. You start tring to make us hear a metradone too, you are just asking for headaches. (Again, sorry my spelling)
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Jose7822
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2006/09/24 01:00:54
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Well, I personally believe that a drummer (a good one at that) should be able to keep a steady beat with a click on the background, why? Cause if your band plays with sampled material that comes in only on certain parts of the song then you're mucked. On the other hand, it also depends on the style of music. If we're talking about jazz drumming than there's no way a jazz drummer would want to record with a click because that would just ruin his/her groove. So I agree, in a case like that, a click would not do good. Now, for styles like metal, pop, rap, etc. you do need to keep time because, more than likely, in those styles you have to play live with samples. You might get away with it in the studio but not live.
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Clydewinder
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2006/09/24 01:03:28
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quarter note clicks are useless. the best click tracks i have found are either acidized tambourine loops or some busy STEADY patterns with more than 2 kick drums per measure. i am a big fan of using audio loops or "techno" electronic drum sounds for timekeeping in headphones because the tones cut through very easily. also there is nothing less musical than listening to "BEEP beep beep beep BEEP beep beep beep" for 5 minutes straight.
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Ognis
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2006/09/24 01:08:39
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ORIGINAL: Jose7822
Well, I personally believe that a drummer (a good one at that) should be able to keep a steady beat with a click on the background, why? Cause if your band plays with sampled material that comes in only on certain parts of the song then you're mucked. On the other hand, it also depends on the style of music. If we're talking about jazz drumming than there's no way a jazz drummer would want to record with a click because that would just ruin his/her groove. So I agree, in a case like that, a click would not do good. Now, for styles like metal, pop, rap, etc. you do need to keep time because, more than likely, in those styles you have to play live with samples. You might get away with it in the studio but not live.
Okay, I see where you are coming from, but hear me out. I may sound like a fool for not knowing what they are called, but the metradones that have a needle that goes from side to side ? Those help ALOT with drumers. Because like I said, we just simply cant hear a "click". And attemping to hear it, throws our "feel" into limbo. YET, when you can look at that passing back and forth, then you can mentaly keep time with it. I think that may be the best answer for the orig poster. Yet I do agree with this quote. As in jazz, and I may add funk, metadones will do little other than throw the drumer off.
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Jose7822
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2006/09/24 01:19:28
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Dude! you're funny as hell. "Metadones", that's awesome. I do understand what you're saying man. I was just expressing an opinion that doesn't have to be considered if you don't want to or anyone here for that matter. I guess, to hopefully end this discussion, the best way to finalize this is by arriving at the conclusion of the fact that everyone is different and for each its own. Basically, drummers will have to play around and see what works for them. I've heard of drummers who record using sequenced MIDI drums of their songs in the background, and if that helps than go for it. Well, I'm out....take care everyone.
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Ognis
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2006/09/24 01:22:10
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Dude! you're funny as hell. "Metadones", that's awesome. I try :P But honestly I think thats what he needs. A visual metradone, or whatever you kids are calling it these days
post edited by Ogis - 2006/09/24 01:40:03
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Envoy
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2006/09/24 01:22:55
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Sorry, but there is a lot of bad reportage in this thread. It boils down to a rather simple dualism:
1. Good musicians (with recording experience) can play with a click, regardless of instrument
2. Bad musicians can't.
It is neither more nor less difficult for a drummer/percussionist to play accurately to click than anyone else. No one likes to pull rank or puff themselves up, but I've played percussion live and in recording for 3 decades, in many situations, and with many killer instrumentalists, singers, composers, arrangers and producers. The only lame people that couldn't play to click are just that: lame or inexperienced.
Feel, style, groove - all those are somewhat different issues, and don't negate the ability to play to click. Think Keltner can't play to click and have a pocket deeper than deep? Gadd? Etc?
It is a basic recording skill that *anyone* can learn if they apply themselves. Drummers aren't genetically inferior, click-wise. If you have this experience, you are working with the wrong drummers.
[...hmmm, it felt good to get that off my chest...]
Envoy
...the dreamer that remains...
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Ognis
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2006/09/24 01:25:36
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ORIGINAL: Envoy
Sorry, but there is a lot of bad reportage in this thread. It boils down to a rather simple dualism:
1. Good musicians (with recording experience) can play with a click, regardless of instrument
2. Bad musicians can't.
It is neither more nor less difficult for a drummer/percussionist to play accurately to click than anyone else. No one likes to pull rank or puff themselves up, but I've played percussion live and in recording for 3 decades, in many situations, and with many killer instrumentalists, singers, composers, arrangers and producers. The only lame people that couldn't play to click are just that: lame or inexperienced.
Feel, style, groove - all those are somewhat different issues, and don't negate the ability to play to click. Think Keltner can't play to click and have a pocket deeper than deep? Gadd? Etc?
It is a basic recording skill that *anyone* can learn if they apply themselves. Drummers aren't genetically inferior, click-wise. If you have this experience, you are working with the wrong drummers.
[...hmmm, it felt good to get that off my chest...]
Envoy
Well, yes, if you can hear it, of course. Hence my post of a visual metradone....
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Phrauge
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2006/09/24 01:28:14
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ORIGINAL: Envoy
Drummers aren't genetically inferior. I was with you right up to there. Even with the click-wise stipulation.
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Envoy
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2006/09/24 01:34:03
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ORIGINAL: Ogis
Well, yes, if you can hear it, of course. Hence my post of a visual metradone....
Ouch! C'mon!! Just because I'm playing a percussive sound doesn't mean I can't hear another sound. In fact, working with students as well, you teach them to play with click until the click seems to "disappear", because they are hitting directly on click. And as they become even better listeners, and can control their own tempo and inner pulse, they can start to move their notes a little bit either way, and can start to hear the click peeking out from either ahead of, or behind, the note they play. This is all pretty fundamental to studio drumming skills. It gets more dicey with classical percussionists, who sometimes don't tend to think of time in the same way as pop or commercial, but that is another story. Sorry, I'm sure this has gotten way OT for the Sonar forum! Envoy
...the dreamer that remains...
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Envoy
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2006/09/24 01:35:52
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ORIGINAL: Phrauge
I was with you right up to there.
Mind you, I'm not saying they (we) are genetically superior either! Envoy
...the dreamer that remains...
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newbie1000
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RE: playing to a click. Why so difficult?
2006/09/24 01:38:17
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well i did do some experiments with playing along to loops rather than clicks and thought i was imagining that it was 50% easier to keep time, but based on this thread, it really is easier. uck clicktracks, i'm gonna use loops.
metadones. love that.
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