playing to a click track is like the Geico commercial. even a caveman can do it, but not a drummer

I think that for a drummer, playing to a click is unnatural. It's far too rigid and disciplined They like to play slightly ahead or behind a beat, even if it's milliseconds, to give the tune "feel".

If you are a GOOD drummer, the click should not prevent you from exploring the territory just before or after the beat to get that rushed or laid back feel. If anything, it's helpful in making sure that you don't over-do it. Sometimes, when playing behind the beat, there's a tendency to also slow down. The click helps lock that in.

In a studio, especially where overdubbing is used (99% of the time), and double-especially if the whole rhythm section isn't recording together (probably not terribly common, except in things like online collaboration and whatnot, though I have recorded entire drum parts to songs without even a reference instrument, because of studio limitations), the click is absolutely essential. It just turns to a festival of slop if there isn't some reliable time-piece. REALLY experienced bands can get away with this, but odds are pretty good that THAT drummer is capable of playing comfortably to a click as well.

But to more experienced listeners, it almost always ends up sounding like a demo and not a commercial recording.

Agreed.

And, so that nobody feels picked on, here is a non-discriminating musician joke:

We got music in our jeens.
I got a uncle that plays piano by ear.
And I got a cousin that fiddles with his belly button.

Best luck I have had is standing in front of the drummer with the click track in my headphones, and conducting him as a symphony conductor would. Looks silly as all get-out, but it gets the job done!

LJ

ORIGINAL: Ognis

Because drummers are the worst musicians in a band.

Okay, thats messed up. I am a drummer of 10 years (and I'm only 25)... I took lessons for 6 years, and like to think I'm not too bad.

Let me explain something to you. Drummers have a NATURAL feel for rhythm. When you put a metrodome (I know I spelled that wrong) to us, you throw us off. Simple as that. We have our own feel, within our head. As soon as we start to feel someting outside our own natural rhythm, we get thrown off. Its not a simple 4 count on a hi hat, its in us. If you have a drummer that cant keep time, you dont have a drummer. Simple as that. A true drummer sould be able to do, off beats, funk, fills, etc, with out any help. What throws us off the most (within a band), is a screw up on part of the bass. drums and bass are the backbone of rhythm in a song. Do not, I repeat do not say we have no talent. How about this, try doing paradoodles, whilch is tapping R = right, L = Left.. RLRRLRLL, LRLLRLRR.. And see how fast you can do it to time

Most all musicians have a natural feel for rhythm. The best drummers I know love working with a click track and can play, not only with it, but around it, and in many different ways.

It takes experience to be able to hear a click, and stay with it, and also to be able to not loose a grip on ones own internal clock at the same time.

Something I've found it useful is to ask the drummer to record a simple track to use as the click track that compliments his proper beat. Once you've got a bar or two of that (and sometimes a different beat for choruses etc) you can loop it and use the loop as the click track. This does three things, gives the 'click' some of the timing nuances of the actual drummer, gets him involved in the making of the click and helps him feel like he is playing along with himself rather than a machine.

The difficult bit of this is using the right percussive sounds for the 'click' in the first place for the drummer to hear while recording his main part, but I have found that because he's been involved in choosing the click beat, he's much more encouraged to use it!

Andy

ORIGINAL: DaneStewart

All jokes aside - I think most people have missed the actual reason:
IT'S BECAUSE THEY CAN'T HEAR THE CLICK.
Seriously.
Dig:
The click has an envelope like a drum right?
Click quarter notes are almost always going to be occupied by one drum hit or another. So a drum is hitting right ON every click.
IF the drummer is ON the click - THEN THEY CAN'T HEAR IT.
They can only hear the click if they get off the beat a little. The ear will struggle to find the click. The only way the then hear it is to relax or push the tempo a bit, resulting in messy time.

SOLUTION:
Make a funky syncopated percussion loop in a drum machine that is a totally different rhythm from the kind of beat the drummer will be playing!!!!!!
This way the drummer will always be hearing a timing reference that they aren't interfering with. Their ear can update their accuracy every 16th note or so.
I suggest using Roland 808 sounds because they are very tight and they really cut through.

As an engineer, and as a drummer, I have done this in the studio MANY times. It's the charm.

~DPS

Very well put Dane and your solution is a great idea too!
Randy

If you find a drummer whom practices with a click, most likey they'll have no issues performing with one either.

I start everything off with a click when I set up a song to record, because I often have time signature and tempo changes, so they must be mapped out in advance as I'm setting up the file with all the pertinent information, and I usually make mention of it in the markers. I use lots and lots of markers, sometimes close to 75 per song, but I've found that the musicians I work with are quite appreciative of the information represented there.

On my new project, we're considering not even using a full time keyboardist, nor even running sequences, but running an IPOD with .mp3 backing tracks of synth/special fx only as a sub-mix, with the audio on one side in mono, and the other side being the click only. This eliminates the need to bring a laptop to every performance also. The audio gets fed to mains and monitors, the click gets fed to the monitors of the drummer and anyone else in the band that my wish to have it. Sometimes this is good so that the drummer isn't always having to count out the beginning of every song. I also have loops that are spoken "1-2-3-4" & so on so that those can be incorporated with the click for more of a human feel, and no always subjecting the drummer to "Click-Clack-Clack-Clack". I've found this to be quite helpful in preserving the relations with your drummer(s).

We monitor with an Aviom system, so you can set your own mix.

I've found that as I rehearse with a click, even before the drums get laid down, that I'm playing far more precisely and cleanly, which makes all of the rest of the performances stand out with even greater clarity. With everyone in the band doing the same, the results are quite nice.

I've personally practiced to "metadones" and click tracks live and in the studio for years, and worked with drummers who use clicks so as to stay synchronized to other things outside the band. It's not a problem for most if they practice. But some people have more trouble playing in time than others.

I remember an instance about 25 years ago, and I was studying with a jazz saxophonist (I'm a bass player), and I was playing some modal scales with a click because we were trying to achieve a certain velocity. When I finished the exercise, my teacher shook his head and said, "Man, you played that and stayed right with the metronome the whole time!". I was surprised, and asked if that wasn't the case with everyone, and that's when he told me that a very large number of musicians have trouble matching time with a click and staying consistent. Since then, I've come to realize, to a much smaller degree, it's a gift, just like some people are born with perfect pitch memory, (not me). But one can practice and develop a very useful sense of relative pitch (like me), just like one can practice and become BETTER at playing steady at any tempo.

I played with a drummer earlier today who was using a metronome, and we had no problem playing three different tunes all at different tempos and grooves, but then again, I don't think the band was tugging the drummer out of his pocket. And I'll do a couple live shows this weekend with a different drummer, and he'll be playing all but one or two of the tunes to a click part that was recorded for each individual song, and we'll all groove hard, like we have for over ten years together, backing this particular artist, and everyone will go home happy.

Being able to play steady to a click and still be musical is part gift, but more it's a learned skill.

(If you don't like playing to a click, you'd hate working in Nashville!!)

First thing is get rid of the horrible midi click sound and get something more accoustic, I use the sound of sticks and have sometimes used a kick drum on the root note and sticks on 2, 3 and 4. Sonar makes this job very easy, some people might like closed hats etc

I'm not a drummer and don't know how a drummer can stick to a simple (and soft sounding) click.
But I know it is possible because the drummer I work with plays perfectly over a click. He almost always practice over click. And while he gets perfectly right on the time, it doesn't pevent him of giving any feeling he wants. I suppose it takes a lot of practice to achieve, but he's living proof that it is possible, and I testify that his abilities are very valuable for me, really help in the overall workflow. A drummer that can do nicely what's needed in the most convenient way for the task, instead of having to design the workflow for his abilities. Now I could't ask much less from a professional studio drummer.

David - I don't have a problem with your questions - but you're asking them to a person who hasn't been on the forum for over a year. his last post was 2/3/08, so he's not likely to respond to your post.

It's because the percussive nature of the drums can, and do mask the click. Unless it's real loud and then it may seem to mask the drums and can make you not "believe" in what you're playing.
The comparatively sustained instruments don't so much and you can clearly hear the inter measure beats.
 
 
 
 

In nine years you haven't gotten further with this topic...??? :o) :o)
 
The answer is: When a guitarist plays to a click he often (usually?) doesn't play precisely. but with a feel that follows
the rhythm. When a drummer follows the click, he has to follow the click exactly. If he's 300 milliseconds late here and an 350 ms early there, it doesn't sound like a feel, it sounds simply inaccurate. That's why non-drummers playing drums find it harder than with a guitar, bass or similar.  The guitarist only thinks he's playing to a click. A drummer either has practiced enough or he hasn't - I think usually they have.

In my humble opinion it's not the best idea to record to a click in the first place. Say you have Sonar handy ... just whip yourself up a quick loop that has the exact feel you want in the song and then drag the end of the clip to repeat it until the end of the song. You can then lay down your basic tracks to that loop and your track will have that much more mojo and vibe.
 
The reason is, a click track is much too sterile and unmusical on it's own ... sort of like a drum machine. It's way too perfect and doesn't groove one bit. If you lay all of your tracks down to this click, everything will sound very robotic. It won't swing baby ...
 
Much better to make yourself a loop in Sonar that has an actual feel like the song you are trying to record. In a lot of blues music it is customary to play drums a little behind the beat. If you want your blues song to have this feel, you would be doing yourself and the song a disservice by starting the whole thing off playing to a perfectly quantized click track.
 
The other side of the coin is that it is also easier for a real drummer to play along with something that grooves like a loop with some actual feel than it would be him to play along to this sterile click track. You've got to get his flow going ... remember the very same things that make drummers less than perfect are the very same things that make them groove ... it's the little flaws that count.
 
Ever see a band with two drummers? How is they can lock in and play so well with each other if they are all such terrible musicians?