Low wattage, tube based *power* amp?

So looking at the whole Randall/Egnator thing, it seems like a very practical and flexible solution for the project studio guy for a lot of guitar tones at a reasonable price, combined with something like a Grendal iso cab. But there seems to be a dearth of low wattage, like 5 watt'ish power amp sections to use with them. I could buy an amp of course with a send/return but space is at a premium, and I'd prefer something in a box or a rack mountable box if such a thing exists.

I really don't see anything out there catering to what I would think would be a fairly growing market (the project studio market.) Randall only sells a 50 watt stereo thingie. You have things like the Boogie 20/20 which is still massive overkill for something like this, and stereo which isn't needed.

I can't imagine why Randall doesn't have an option for a 5 watt power section in their RM4. That would make it a no-brainer flexible project studio device.

Anyway, any ideas on this front? I'd like good quality, but relative to someone who's buying a Randall RM4 instead of a room full of Marshalls and Bogners and whatnot. So maybe $250'ish range or less?

What speaker are you going to use with the low wattage output?

Why not just patch into a Fender Champ and leave the input padded down e.g. leave the dial at "2"?

Then you have a low wattage power amp?

How about a 300B mono block audiophile amp... total triode love affair!

I've long fantasized about making a 300B guitar combo.

best regards,
mike

It's a lot more than your $250, but here's probably the ideal solution for you; the Rockmod Brick:

http://www.kashaamplifiers.com/index.htm

Going into the effects loop, you can bypass the preamp. You have your choice of running one or two EL84s or 6V6s.

It's nice to see John back in business. I used a Rockmod II as my preamp for seven years; the longest I've stayed with any preamp/amp.

ew

That looks real nice.

But how do you switch between nine pin EL84's:



and 8 pin 6V6's?:



adaptors? extra sockets?

best regards,
mike

I think you have to order it as one or the other.

ORIGINAL: TomN

I think you have to order it as one or the other.

Not quite correct. You can order it with two eight pin sockets, two nine pin sockets or one of each.

http://www.kashaamplifiers.com/Newsletters/Newsletter%20October%202008.pdf

ew

One of each?

That's revolutionary! (or at least the first time I have heard of this technique)

What do they do about the crossover distortion when running both type tubes?




edit to add:

Why do they use aircraft aluminum to get a precise fit?

What is aircraft aluminum?

Is aluminum a good material to use while designing a faraday cage?


I thought aluminum was for making early Marshall prototype clones... and for making sure the chassis gets relic'ed (a.k.a. warped) when the cartage truck hits a bump and the tranformers practices the fine art of inertia.

:-)

Not revolutionary at all, Mike. Mesa did it fifteen years ago with the Blue Angel (four EL84s and two 6v6s), and Egnater does it with their new Rebel 20 head...

http://www.egnateramps.com/Rebel20.html

But, that's multiples of each. With one of each, I'd almost have to imagine that each runs single ended and is summed at the output transformer, but I'm not sure.

ew

Yes those are pairs... or more precisely even numbers.

Is this a push pull amp using two different tubes?

That's the part I would consider unusual.


edit to add:

The Egnater seemingly uses a parallel power circuit... which is pretty unorthodox... I'm fascinated and will try to learn more.

best,
mike

I'd love to examine the schematics for the Egnater and the Kasha.

Best regards,
mike

ORIGINAL: mike_mccue


edit to add:

The Egnater seemingly uses a parallel power circuit... which is pretty unorthodox... I'm fascinated and will try to learn more.

best,
mike

Boogies have done that for years; that's the whole routine behind their Simul-Class amps. You have one pair of tubes running in a Class AB circuit and the other pair running in a Class A circuit.

ew

It's a lot more than your $250, but here's probably the ideal solution for you; the Rockmod Brick:

http://www.kashaamplifiers.com/index.htm

But that's the thing. I'm already spending a bunch of money on a flexible pre-amp system (or would if I had it to spend), so I don't want to spend just as much again for another amp. I was looking for something simple and small, maybe rack mountable. It doesn't need to do anything but provide a nice little low wattage power amp stage that can be pushed if desired. I do see the benefits of having multiple tube types for flexibility, but it seems to me that some simple auto-biasing thing would be even simpler, and cheaper and less heat producing. Just swap the tubes when you want a different sound.

I HAD....
a Peavey JSX mini colossal amp....

5 watts.
class A.

with a recording out.

it was a nice amp, especially for the money.

now, i could get great clean tones with it....

but very, very quietly.

if this is all you need, i'd say, forego all the expense of channel switching this and that....

and go for simplicity.

if you are going to mic a speaker, the excursion of the speaker, and the way it interacts with the amp, is very important to both the feel, and the sound.

if you want stellar recorded sound, you've got to understand, that a iso box, will always sound like 'the box'.

you also have to understand, that the reason for higher wattages, is for CLEAN HEAEDROOM.

low watts, will not get you super clean tones at anything but bedroom volume.
not very useful, unless THAT is all you need.

i have a vintage 60 watt tube amp, that i now use in conjunction with a WEBER MASS LITE attenutator.

it works like a charm.

i also use combinations of mic, and the PALMER PDI-09 DI/cab sim box.
it sounds great.

so i can mic up when i want to be loud, or run strictly direct, using the attenutator to give me bedroom volume, and the palmer ties in BEFORE the attenuator, and it gets the full output sound of the amp.

this to me, is the best solution, for the compromise between controlled environment, and making use of the gear i really like.

by the way, 5 watts (like with the little peavey tube amp) is ALMOST loud enough, when fully driven, to play with a band.

so "low watts", is only really relevent to your gain structure.

ORIGINAL: droddey

It's a lot more than your $250, but here's probably the ideal solution for you; the Rockmod Brick:

http://www.kashaamplifiers.com/index.htm

But that's the thing. I'm already spending a bunch of money on a flexible pre-amp system (or would if I had it to spend), so I don't want to spend just as much again for another amp. I was looking for something simple and small, maybe rack mountable. It doesn't need to do anything but provide a nice little low wattage power amp stage that can be pushed if desired. I do see the benefits of having multiple tube types for flexibility, but it seems to me that some simple auto-biasing thing would be even simpler, and cheaper and less heat producing. Just swap the tubes when you want a different sound.

?

Biasing doesn't even come into the question when you're talking low wattage like you are. All the amps putting out low wattage like that are Class A; there isn't any crossover, hence nothing to bias. With the higher powered Class A amps that are push/pull, the power tubes are still constantly powered all the time. Hence, once again, nothing to bias.

ew

low watts, will not get you super clean tones at anything but bedroom volume. not very useful, unless THAT is all you need.

But that's all I need, since this is for a studio, and it'll be close mic'd, so it doesn't have to be loud at all. The Nanohead is something I was seriously considering, 1/2 watt, but the RM4 would provide a lot more flexibility. If I could find a good quality 2 or 1 or 1/2 watt power amp section, I'd be plenty happy with that.

I'm in an apartment. I MIGHT be able to get away with a 1/2 watt power amp without an ISO box, but even that can be pretty loud. If I do need the ISO box, then I might as well get a somewhat higher output one for a little more headroom.

The Grendel doesn't sound terribly boxy. It has like 6" of insulation in the lid (the speaker fires into the lid.) It does cut down on low end, but generally that's not a bad thing for recording, since it'll be close mic'd.

Biasing doesn't even come into the question when you're talking low wattage like you are. All the amps putting out low wattage like that are Class A; there isn't any crossover, hence nothing to bias.

Hmmm... So why do so many of these low wattage amps brag about being auto-biasing, and allowing you to plop in many different types of tubes?

ORIGINAL: droddey


Hmmm... So why do so many of these low wattage amps brag about being auto-biasing, and allowing you to plop in many different types of tubes?

Because they're spouting self-serving ****. Class A amps don't need to be biased in the terms that we associate with Class AB amps- that is, crossover biasing. Hence, none of your sub 20 watt amps need to be biased. It's just a marketing game on their part...

ew

I don't think that's fair to say.

A class A amp like the Fender Champ has a Cathode biased circuit. Cathode bias has been called a self biasing design since the 1930's... way before push pull came along.

I believe the critical reason to bias a push pull amp's tubes is to balance the output of each tube... it's also noteworthy that AB push pull designs are intended to push the tubes harder (thats why they switch on and off to prevent overheating) so the bias sweet spot is much narrower than when working with a low output circuit.

Some amps have balance circuits and fixed bias... the bias is fixed but you can balance the two sides with a potentiometer.

The idea behind mix and match tubes in a small class A amp is that it's just not critical and definitely can provide a wide range of sound.

best regards,
mike

Which brings me back to my original question... Anyone know of a nice reasonably costing low wattage (5 or less) power amp that's small would be appropriate for such a setup?

well, my point of having a super low wattage amp, and putting it thru a speaker, was more about the fact that if you don't move any air at all (speaker excursion), it's gonna sound pretty wimpy.

that's why you don't see pros using that type of setup very often.

character of sound (when live micing) comes as much from the room sound, as from the amp and speaker itself.


inside of a box, has almost zero character.

the magic 'MOJO' of tone, typically comes from all factors:
the cabinet
the choice of speaker(s)
the head
whether you're running the head hard and loud enough, to be in the 'sweet spot'
the interaction of the room acoustics


then, the 2ndary things, like the guitar, the player, the cables/pedals, etc.....


the idea behind getting 'mojo' out of a low watt class A amp, still revolves around pushing a speaker properly, typically at a still loud volume, and choosing a speaker that is at it's optimum working level, to actually get a 'tone' out of it.

look at the Emery BABY for this kind of multi tube, multi tone setup....

but really, these types of amps really only have one sound, and that's the sound that's inherent in your guitar.

purist love these types of amps that react to each guitar in your collection.

the amps themselves, do not have a wide range of sound, and that is their forte.

again, 5 watts is fine for clean volume.

it will still be too much for higher gain playing, unless it has a built in attenuator.

there are NO cheap boutique 5 watt amps.

there is a cheap, made in usa 5 watt amp with a lot of control built in, and that is the joe satriani designed peavey i mentioned.

i say there are no CHEAP 5 watts amps...
that's not true.

the epiphone amp fits that bill.

but i can't stand the sound of it.

so, i wouldn't own one......

I think the extreme low end of the parts costs would be defined by the cost of either a cheap Epiphone or Champion 600. They've got a few extra parts... but share the expensive parts like transformers.

The parts costs of quality oriented parts with domestic transformers is probably $120-150 before finding a chassis.

There's probably someone out there with one in stock and even more likely you could find a amp tech to make you one from scratch for $450.

How about something like a dual single ended triode tube headphone amp?

I've seen stuff like that around.


Are you gonna use a good speaker? :-)

best,
mike

ORIGINAL: mike_mccue

I don't think that's fair to say.

A class A amp like the Fender Champ has a Cathode biased circuit. Cathode bias has been called a self biasing design since the 1930's... way before push pull came along.

But- that's my point, Mike. All your cathode biased amps are self biasing- they don't need traditional crossover biasing. To use that as a sales pitch when it's inherent in any amp design of that size is self-serving IMO...

ew

I guess I've never seen it discussed as if it was unique to a particular amp. If that's the case I'd agree that's self serving.

I mean, it is true it's a feature of that design.

I've often enjoyed swapping my different 6v6 tubes (as well as 6L6s) in my Champs just for the fun of it.

anyways, we agree more than it seems.

FWIW I'm off studying simul class... not cause I ever want one... but so at least we can talk about them and I will not be so unaware. :-)

best regards,
mike

Eric does Simul class have dual speaker outputs... the part I'm not understanding is how the two parrallel circuits could drive a single speaker simultaneously.

I'm at the Mesa site and have not found the info about that yet.

Nope. It's a transformer with multiple cores that's responsible, if I remember correctly...

ew

Ahh, so we do agree... that's not revolutionary.

But this idea of placing two different type tubes in a single push pull circuit, as I infer the Kasha does, (after reading all the info I could find at the site) and providing a single speaker output does seem revolutionary to me.

Maybe someone did it on a Williamson in the fifties ;-) but I never heard of this idea... so it really caught my attention.

When you said the Kasha was similar to the SimulClass I thought maybe I had never understood how the SimulClass worked.

best regards,
mike

If you've got it (the Brick) outfitted with both tube types, I'm not so sure it does work as a push/pull. I'm thinking more of the lines that it would be two single ended circuits with some transformer summing as with the Simuls. But, I could be mistaken...

ew

I thought you just said the Simulclass doesn't sum but rather is dual core with seperate output channels?

Now I'm confused again? :-)

I've posted a question about the possibility of summing on another forum that I get help at on occasions.

best regards,
mike

ORIGINAL: ew

Not revolutionary at all, Mike. Mesa did it fifteen years ago with the Blue Angel (four EL84s and two 6v6s), and Egnater does it with their new Rebel 20 head...

http://www.egnateramps.com/Rebel20.html

But, that's multiples of each. With one of each, I'd almost have to imagine that each runs single ended and is summed at the output transformer, but I'm not sure.

ew

I was going to mention that amp. I played through one the other day and it was incredible. And for the price, amazing. I am definitely saving up for one.

No- the Simul/Class uses the same speaker output. It's the transformer itself that's doing the summing from what I've read.

ew

well I'm looking at 290 schematics and the chassis photos of 295s

They describe the out puts as different channels A and B

I can't find a schematic for channel B which suggests that for maintenance purpose that it is a mirror of channel A... layout wise at least.

I don't see anything to suggest it's summed... and honestly I've never thought in detail about summing hi current outputs, although any 4 tube push pull amp is doing that on each side I guess.

I'll keep looking.

best,
mike

The 290 and 295s are stereo amps. They use Simul/Class power sections on both sides; two tubes in Class AB and two in Class A per channel- eight power tubes total. I owned a 295 for a few years back when I was gigging a lot...

ew

well, my point of having a super low wattage amp, and putting it thru a speaker, was more about the fact that if you don't move any air at all (speaker excursion), it's gonna sound pretty wimpy.

Iso boxes aren't air tight. They will allow the speaker to move, though less than an open back amp. And of course in some cases the lid doesn't need to be closed if you aren't playing a loud part late at night.

character of sound (when live micing) comes as much from the room sound, as from the amp and speaker itself.

That's only desirable though if you have a decent sounding room, which I don't. It would have almost no character because it's so treated for base response that it has almost no liveness at all. The assumption here is close micing and the use of artificial reverb.


Of course I'm happy to also entertain an attenuator scenario. But if moving the speaker is so important, I don't see how it will make much difference since it would be so attentuated that it wouldn't be any different from just using a very low wattage amp anyway, from teh speaker's perspective.

ORIGINAL: ew

The 290 and 295s are stereo amps. They use Simul/Class power sections on both sides; two tubes in Class AB and two in Class A per channel- eight power tubes total. I owned a 295 for a few years back when I was gigging a lot...

ew

Ok then so it's official... I never knew how a SimulClass works. Now that I am re-viewing the schematic I see that the layout is the same but the component values are way different for each of the pairs. NOW I get it. Thanks for sticking with me and continuing to explain.

Also I found an example of a single ended multiple tube design that also "sums" at the transformer:



I guess it's not revolutionary... but it's the first I've ever heard of this type of design.

Cool stuff.



Dean, are you getting the impression you should just build what you want?

Also Dean, I'm such a speaker nut... I'm having a hard time imagining a *caged* speaker getting a full range of tones... I guess thats what you have too do... but :-(

best regards,
mike

Iso boxes aren't air tight. They will allow the speaker to move, though less than an open back amp. And of course in some cases the lid doesn't need to be closed if you aren't playing a loud part late at night.

well, i own a demeter isolation box, arguably one of the best iso boxes ever made.
DEMETER ISOLATION CABINET, WITH CELESTION VINTAGE 30:



and no matter how low a volume you play, or how high the volume, you will still hear the box.
i know. i recorded hundreds of tracks, at varying specifics.....

i still use it as a load box for certain things...
but after a year of experimentation with micing the iso box, i gave up on it forever.
everyone must find their own path.

Of course I'm happy to also entertain an attenuator scenario. But if moving the speaker is so important, I don't see how it will make much difference since it would be so attentuated that it wouldn't be any different from just using a very low wattage amp anyway, from teh speaker's perspective.

true that, but for me, attenuating the boogie, lets me drive the boogie into it's sweet spot, which just so happens to be about 140 db........!!
LOL
so, even tho i'm not getting the output to a high powered speaker, i AM getting everything i can get off the boogie....

and in addition to that, i purchased a low-power speaker (Celestion Heritage G12, 30 watts) so that i can take advantage of a speaker that works harder at lower volume. i also have a 20 watt Eminence legend 122 for that purpose. i just have to be careful to not blow the speaker with a non-attenuated signal.



add into that, the cab sim thru the Palmer PDI-09, which sounds almost as good as a miced cab, and i've got a lot of possibilities.

the Palmer is brilliant, for live work, so you don't have to use a mic...
and i've used it for recording acoustics, and bass as well.....


just some ideas for you....


Mass Lite

I do reasonable well currently with DI'ing through a Great River and using Amplitube. So I'd want to take a significant step forward for it to be worthing do anything at all. So it has to be a real amp. Though I'm not that concerned about the iso cab. I've heard a fair amount of stuff done with them and I don't think it's that big a compromise, and perhaps it's even less so with a low wattage amp because it's not moving the speaker as much anyway.

The Grendel has like 6" of absorption in the lid, way more than would seem to be the case in your pictured one above. I've heard some samples and it seems mostly to just reduce the low end a bit, not something all that scary for studio purposes since they end up high passed so much anyway. And, as mentioned, sometimes I'll be able to keep the lid open. It's just there as an option when I need it and want to crank it up. If there's some boxiness it can be adjusted for with EQ if necessary.

So it seems like a reasonable compromise for my needs, and enough of a substantial step up from my current scenario to be worth it. This all assumes I can come up with the funds to do it anyway of course.

BTW, you'll find some different opinions on what works best. I've read a good number of opinions that a low wattage amp works far better because the close up mic isn't just being brutally abused by sheer SPL, and that it actually allows for better capture of a good close mic'd tone.

The speaker I was looking at is the Vintage 30. It has enough handling power for all of the lower wattage heads that I'd likely be interested in for studio work, and it's reasonable priced. The Grendel with a V30 is like $490'ish, probably $550 with the shipping and taxes. The RM4 will end up about $650. A couple modules to start will be about $400. An SM57 and Senn e609 will be another couple hundred.

So not cheap, but a good start and with the ability to add lots of other modules, from Randall or Egnator, there probably isn't any more flexible scenario. And I still need to figure out a power amp scenario.

"perhaps it's even less so with a low wattage amp because it's not moving the speaker as much anyway. "

This is why I've repeatedly asked what speaker you were using...

Here's where you get a speaker to use with a 5 watt amp:

weber speakers



The vintage 30 is for a ... 30 watt amp :-)

The 30 is just the maximum capacity of the speaker, it doesn't just work with 30 watt speakers, unless I'm missing something very obvious. Even the 1/2 watt Nanohead will drive a 4x12 cabinet just fine, though obviously not at concert levels but definitely at close mic'ing levels. And I won't necessarly only be using it with a really low wattage head all the time. I may get others down the line, though I'm happy to stick with 30 watts or below. So I'm not sure why I'd need to get a special specifically for the wattage?

OK, so with the Weber guy, then it would look more like:

- RM4 $650
- One module to start wtih $200
- Some higher powered power amp (that Randal 20/50 is great because of the flexibiltiy but a freaking $1K by itself)
- Weber $225'ish
- Some nice 1x12 speaker cab so maybe something in the $350 to $500 range
- SM57/e609 $220'ish

So that's not a bad solution really as long as the attentuator doesn't have an undue effect on the sound. Though, still you end up with the equiv of a 5 watt (assuming it attenuates a 50 watt signal, say, to 1/10th the original), which could still be pretty loud. I'd probably have to sometimes build a temporary enclosure out of bass traps, of which I have a lot laying around, to cut down the sound perhaps sometimes.

But still, it's an avenue to explore. Anything out there on the power amp front that has some of the flexibitliy of that Randall power amp for a substantial amount less? It comes out about the same as the iso cab scenario, though slightly more.

I'm not sure if you guys are aware of this or not...but the Celestion Vintage30 is not a 30 watt speaker, rather it is a 60 watter.

You'd think they'd make things less confusing, and just call it the Vintage60 instead?

"So I'm not sure why I'd need to get a special specifically for the wattage? "

IF you want the speaker to be coupled to the amp in a lively way you'll want a nice light alnico speaker that is very sensitive. If you are really into speakers... you'll also want something light that has some break up character at 5 watts (most 5 watt amps can put out a dirty screaming 10 watts or so.) So Weber 15 watt alnicos are made to give you real speaker tone and a marginally safe power capacity rating.

A 30 watt speaker will not contribute much "speaker" tone to a 5 watt tube amp. It's just going to do it's job... like it's bored or something.

I'm a vintage speaker snob and have a collection of the classics... having said that. I highly recommend the factory fresh Weber handmade speakers.

At the very least do yourself a favor and review their selection of speakers. Each model has a different cone design... it's not that complicated... but each cone has different breakup characteristics... and you ca hear the difference.

If you want a 5 watter... I just have to assume you'd appreciate a speaker that will contribute to the tone you are seeking.

But if you really want a Celestion 30 watter... I'd venture to say Weber can nail that sound better than the official reissue vendor. Edit to add: mainly for the reason suggested in the above post.

all the best,
mike

Given that it looks like I won't find any low wattage power amp, it seems like either the iso cab (which doesn't require a low wattage amp necessarliy since since it is an iso cab), or the Webber thing plus a regular cab. So any good 50 wattish tube based power amps that aren't like $1000 like the Randal? If you do a search for Power Amp of course what you get is really powerful amps, not power stage amps. So they are all really powerful ones, not what I need. The Boogie 20/20 would be an option there, but it's probably way more expensive than desired as well, and stereo which I don't need.

It just seems like no one is really addressing this market at all.

BTW, here are some good quality clips of a lot of the available modules:

http://www.bandslink.com/randall.htm

It sounds like it would be everything I'm looking for in terms of flexibility. There'd be a cost to get in the door, but after that, a fairly reasonable cost to add a new flavor (most of them are $200.) A collection of four of five of them would provide a lot of flexibility, like Blackface, Clean, Plexi, and Modern or something like that.

While it is important consideration on matching an amps output to to a particular speakers wattage, IMHO I would select a speaker based on the tone I was after first and foremost.

Swapping out you favorite sounding type of speaker for one based on wattage alone could be disappointing. Then again it may just work out fine.

But what it comes down to, if your not happy with the tone, either choice may be unsuitable.

"Given that it looks like I won't find any low wattage power amp, it seems like either the iso cab (which doesn't require a low wattage amp necessarliy since since it is an iso cab), or the Webber thing plus a regular cab."

I've assumed that you wanted a low wattage amp because you wanted the unmistakable sound of a low wattage amp.

I still say a used circa 70's Silverface Champ is the best value in guitar amp tone... period.

I also pointed you towards "hi fi" mono blocks... which are specifically power stage amps AND low wattage is in vogue and available in the market segment these days.

I also pointed you to tube based headphone amps.

Have you looked into any of those options.

A fifty watt amp may not even sound so great... I've been drawing the line at a 40 watt Vibrolux for many years... (actually my 20watt Deluxe Reverb will slay most drummers into submission) and stuffing it in a box isn't going to make it sound better.

anyways, good luck with your decision making,
mike

I would prefer something similar to what's in the power amp section of a guitar amp, since that is an important component of the sound, as you push it harder. So something that uses 6L6 or EL34s and sounds like a guitar amp power amp section, not just something that'll make it louder really. That's why it's seemingly very difficult to find something. As I said, the Randall seems like it would be great, since it has both and you can mix and match easily. But it's way overkill for my needs and the cost is way too high.

It just seems that somebody out there would provide a nice little widget that is effectively a guitar amp power amp section.

I'll agree with Mike; it's hard to beat a Champ for a great recording amp. A lot of your classic albums have been recorded with them; they sound huge when you stick a mic on them.
And, like him, I find that even my relatively tame 30 watter's too much a lot of the time; fortunately with mine I can pull a pair of tubes and knock it down to 15 watts.

The Weber's a good choice. If you want a British alternative, the Celestion Blue's a fantastic 15 watt speaker. However, it's also really spendy.

ew

Yeh, I've heard it's a great amp, but it's just one sound. The point of the Randall is variety. I'm trying to get Amplitube but with real tubes basically, or something close to that. Since I just write and record my own stuff, and I have no fixed style, I need enough flexibility to really get a lot of different tones from squeaky clean to high gain. I don't do too bad with Amplitube, and I keep getting suprisingly better results out of it over time, but it's never quite that real world sound.

ORIGINAL: droddey

I would prefer something similar to what's in the power amp section of a guitar amp, since that is an important component of the sound, as you push it harder. So something that uses 6L6 or EL34s and sounds like a guitar amp power amp section, not just something that'll make it louder really. That's why it's seemingly very difficult to find something. As I said, the Randall seems like it would be great, since it has both and you can mix and match easily. But it's way overkill for my needs and the cost is way too high.

It just seems that somebody out there would provide a nice little widget that is effectively a guitar amp power amp section.

Well, then you should look at some of the new retro single ended triode mono block hi fi amps... they are darn near identical to the power stage of a 5watt tube guitar amp... as they are also nearly indentical to the power amp stage of a 1950's tube radio. They are actually nearly identical to a thirties radio power amp as well... but those old radios used different speaker circuits.

That's the whole gist of my advice... all the rocket science stuff is for people who are BORED with consistently great guitar tone. Some folks just like variety... nothing wrong with that... but don't miss out on the CLASSIC design just cause it's too normal.


RE Cheeto:

"While it is important consideration on matching an amps output to to a particular speakers wattage, IMHO I would select a speaker based on the tone I was after first and foremost."

Don't worry... we're talking about tone.... there is no tone worse than the sound of an under stimulated speaker. :-)

That said, I do have some cool 12" Rolas that were probably made before power ratings... I drive them with my Champ clone (maybe 12 watts at full full tilt). When the break up they are creamy like butterfat.

Yeah, I'm talking about tone.

Well, the Randall company isn't giving me a lot of confidence. I sent them an e-mail to their support addres and it failed. So I tried to sign up on their forum, but it requires a VIP code from another site which doesn't work. Oh well... It never ceases to amaze me how badly so many companies screw themselves in terms of perception when they try to have a presence on the web but don't bother to actually make sure it works.

I ran into that VIP thing signing up for a forum today, Dean. The VIP code's the one under the forum news and announcements on the Randall forum main page.

ew

I feel like I'm being ignored :-) :-)

http://www.marchandelec.com/mb26.html




a bit larger:

http://www.manleylabs.com/containerpages/50_99.html




a bunch larger:

http://www.grandcanyontuberadio.com/fisher/fisher_4_tube_monoblock_amp_chassis%2030-A.htm






That's it..... I'm spent.

best,
mike

I know exactly where you're coming from, Mike. I used to use an old Harman Kardon integrated amp for recording guitar- 15 watts in stereo of tube bliss...

ew

Thanks Eric, I figured you knew what I was babbling about.

I wish I could find a single ended triode mono block to show Dean. I know they are out there... the low watt retro movement with folded horn speakers made a splash on the audiophile scene a few years ago... I think that would be ideal for his intended use.

I'm not really an audiophile any longer but sorta keep track of my other friends' hi fi interests in that sort of thing.

best regards,
mike

I was in the process of looking around. But, the problem I have is that I can't afford to buy something that doesn't work. If it's not something that other people have used and can vouch for the viability of in my particular usage scenario, that makes it difficult for me to assess these things. And if you look up that first one, it's $1000. I could buy the Randall for that have a lot more flexibility. There's no way the components in that piece are worth remotely that, which is another reason why the hi-fi route seems iffy to me. It's all going to be hugely inflated prices for incredibly simple circuits probably, and probably the simpler the most expensive.

I wish I could find a single ended triode mono block to show Dean.

It's not cheap, but then again, it's from the high-end audio industry. This is an industry that does not have the economics of scale in its favor -- part of the reason for the prices. The good news is that the prices have left room for kit manufacturers, and people selling schematics, to come in and offer a chance at a similar design for a lot less money. Last time I looked, there were all kinds of resources on the web for kits and schematics for rolling your own low-power tube amp, including SET headphone amps.

Yeah Jesse that's the 300B I've been talking about.

Dean, we're really talking about cost of parts here. You're looking at stuff that has $100-$300 dollars in top quality parts.

The 300B amp shown above has probably $600 in parts.

Someday, I'm gonna package a 300B combo in a boutique guitar amp and Dean, you are gonna want it.... BAD! :-)

The 300B tubes were $300ish dollars last time I was reading about them... but someone was about to do a reissue... which was a while ago dso it probably happened and the prices are cheaper.... OOOPS I'm babbling again.

Theses circuits are darn near exactly the guitar power amp stage you are asking for... In the form factor you are asking for.

There's not much to prove... suitability wise... do you really need someone to vouch for the viability.

I think Eric and I already have ;-)

Jesse? Would you like to weigh in with your opinion?

best regards,
mike


edit to add: An EE music amp enthusiast acquaintance from my favorite music tech site left this nugget of wisdom on a thread I started over there:

"Parallel SE works fine, but it was very rare in commercial amps. The reason is that, once the designer added a second tube, he could get more watts, with a smaller OT, by using his two power tubes as a push-pull pair. And wattage was a selling point until the recent craze for low-powered amps."

but the Celestion Vintage30 is not a 30 watt speaker, rather it is a 60 watter.

that is correct.

i hate the sound of the v30.

i have one...

tried it in every cabinet i own, sounds harsh in all of them.

maybe if you're into metal.....




check out this:
http://www.emerysound.com/


http://www.ceriatone.com/


http://fab.stuff.home.comcast.net/index.html


http://www.ax84.com/home.html


http://www.zvexamps.com/amp_view.html

ORIGINAL: batsbrew

but the Celestion Vintage30 is not a 30 watt speaker, rather it is a 60 watter.

that is correct.

i hate the sound of the v30.

i have one...

tried it in every cabinet i own, sounds harsh in all of them.

maybe if you're into metal.....

And I'll disagree. While a new v30 can sound fairly harsh, with age they don't sound bad at all. A closed back cab tends to work better with them than an open cab, but that doesn't mean that an open cab/combo won't work.

I've got a 15 year old v30 in my DC-3 combo; it's definitely not what you'd call harsh sounding at all. YMMV...

ew