[Consolidated] Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1

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fribble
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2010/12/08 13:31:12 (permalink)

[Consolidated] Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1

We have been trying to consolidate all the threads that are popping up. This actually makes it easier for us to see your feedback and experiences. I have merged all the narrow strip threads into this thread.

Robin

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Hi folks,
I've just seen the new console view for the first time and I'm very disappointed.

"Narrow strips" are completely unusable now. There is no EQ plot anymore, plug-in names are truncated to just one or two letters. Where are the phase buttons or stereo interleave buttons? What happened to automation read/write enable? Not to mention input and output devices (shown at the bottom). You can see only ONE letter of the track names - A, L, K ?!?! What are these?

This upgrade was supposed to improve workflow - now I have to guess which channels/plug-ins I'm working on...

I'm usually working on projects with a high track count and I need to see as many tracks as possible - wide strips are not an option for me. I hope this is getting fixed in an update.

One more note: there seems to be a display bug, as some dB values are overlapping - you can see it near the bottom of channels 14 and 20.



Just for comparison: here are the same tracks as shown in Sonar 8.5. It takes even less space on the screen and there's a lot more information readable. See what I mean?


post edited by Robin Kelly [Cakewalk] - 2010/12/13 16:25:05
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    Jon Con
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    Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/08 13:41:10 (permalink)
    I agree with this actually, I regularly use the narrow strips this way and I'm really dissapointed at the loss of features for this aspect. It seems a bit bemusing

    Jon Con
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    Jose7822
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    Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/08 13:50:58 (permalink)
    Yeap, I thought this was a weird decision.

    Hope they change this, cause it was better before.

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    ba_midi
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    Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/08 13:51:40 (permalink)
    I have said MANY times on this forum that we should lower our expectations.
     
    I am going to spend as much time as I can trying to get "familiar"  with X1 before I go too crazy with what bothers me, BUT I must agree about the console view.
     
    It isn't sitting right with me YET.
     

    Billy Arnell (ba-midi)

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    HumbleNoise
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    Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/08 13:52:37 (permalink)
    Wow,

    Have to follow this thread to see if something's amiss or there's a setting somewhere? This is close to a deal breaker for my upgrade dollars and seems like a definite step backwards.  I'll wait and see how this shakes out.

    Humbly Yours

    Larry

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    Jose7822
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    Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/08 13:54:06 (permalink)
    BTW, the way I got around this limitation was by enabling track icons.

    If you don't use them, then you should start now cause they do help tremendously with navigating through big projects.


    HTH

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    e.Blue
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    Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/08 13:59:44 (permalink)
    Jose7822


    BTW, the way I got around this limitation was by enabling track icons.

    If you don't use them, then you should start now cause they do help tremendously with navigating through big projects.


    HTH

    +1


    -e.B

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    ba_midi
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    Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/08 14:01:07 (permalink)
    There is an option to narrow/widen the strips, but with the new GUI it's not quite the same.
     
    I suspect there's going to be a LONG period of adjustment for many of us.
     

    Billy Arnell (ba-midi)

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    Jon Con
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    Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/08 14:07:39 (permalink)
    for me its the phase, automation read and write parameters being removed, the overlapping of the text for panning values, meter level text and not being able to clearly identify the channel output. Is there an option to actually bring the send level into the console display? (still having problems downloading the software at the moment, BT fault, nothing to do with cakewalk)

    Jon Con
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    e.Blue
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    Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/08 14:13:39 (permalink)
    ba_midi


    There is an option to narrow/widen the strips, but with the new GUI it's not quite the same.
     
    I suspect there's going to be a LONG period of adjustment for many of us.
     


    Well to try and put a positive spin on the above statement. I was basically at the point where I was ready to move to a different DAW from SONAR 8.5 because of the old workflow issues anyway. So I guess I'm kinda treating this upgrade like I went ahead and moved to a new DAW. Therefore, I would have had to adjust to these kinds of things anyway. The BIG bonus for me is that I'm actually running X1 as 64-bit only and so far most of my old projects still seem to be loading nicely. 

    I do agree that the new GUI still needs some tweaking and that they did sort of miss the plate with the new Console view. The Wide strips seem to be too wide and the narrow strips seem to be too narrow for no obvious reasons. Hopefully, they can still tweak it without making us wait for a new version release.   -e.B

    post edited by eBlue - 2010/12/08 14:18:25

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    SongCraft
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    Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/08 14:25:22 (permalink)
    The very nature of trying to place a 'real-life-like' mixer in software environment never entirely agreed with me for many reasons such as;

    When working with high track counts 'narrow view' shows more channels per-page BUT with severe compromises....  most essential readouts (text/parameters) are small/cluttered, too overly truncated/abbreviated such as; plugins names and that stupid [] light wasting space, track-titles are horribly overly abbreviate. No other DAW is any better in that regard!

    That said; this is one of the main reasons why I spend most of my time (workflow) in Track-View/PRV + Inspector. And because I mostly work with virtual instruments.


    In Sonar X1, what is the keyboard shortcut to scroll the mixer (L/R)?

    Anyway I would most likely try this (as my own preferred setup):

    . Mixer (Docked) with faders displaying only (or 3rd monitor would be nice) then set up to display all (default)!

    . Track View as main/larger workspace.

    . Inspector for all details displayed on the left, thereby it is the Inspector that gets more use (not the mixer) and remember; the shortcut (I) toggles show/hide.

    . Browser 'temporarily hidden' (B) show/hide.

    . PRV on monitor.2 (that's because I work a lot with midi)!

    -
    post edited by SongCraft - 2010/12/08 14:27:09

     
     
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    Babe1
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    Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/08 14:26:03 (permalink)
    I may not be able to use X1 because of this new console view.  Only the first letter of the track name appears in narrow view and it's too difficult to know at a glance which track is which.  Wide view is too wide as I can't get enough tracks into a small enough space.  
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    rainmaker1011
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    Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/08 15:22:51 (permalink)
    I am with you on this. I have not purchased the upgrade yet and the screenshot showing the narrowed tracks in X1  - unusable track names, unusable FX names and a complete mess with PAN and Volume dB parameters is really a big disappointment for me. :(

    I also do not get why CW is so stubbornly sticking with an "analog" look of the console view. I think the digital age is giving them far more possibilities how to lay out various controls in the channel strip.

    Well, maybe CW should be listening more to user who are using Sonar in a day-to-day work, under various circumstances, with various needs, various track counts etc... From the screenshot, it looks to me that no one in CW had asked the question "How will be the higher track count visible and manageable when using narrowed strips and how can we make it more simple and readable?"

      Slightly off topic, but I see some similarities of this CWs "strange" attitude also in the new Color scheme management. They said they want users to focus more on creating music than on setting up the color scheme. Well, OK, but each user can have different preferences. And there are hundreds and hundreds of users who enjoy and WANT mess with setting the color scheme and want to customize as many parts of the program as possible. I think sonar lacks in terms of color, key-binding customization.
    I can compare it to creating an Excel spreadsheet with some functions. Many people do not use variables in creating Excel functions. Why??? Are they lazy? Dunno, but maybe they think when they are happy with it, every other user will be. Wrong.  

    I hope there will be more variables in setting up Sonar's workspace appearance in the future.

    "bgcolor=#99999" - not flexible and not variable.
    "bgcolor=$bgcolor"
    $bgcolor="  " - user defined


    post edited by rainmaker1011 - 2010/12/08 15:25:20

    Best Regards,  
    Marek

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    LJB
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    Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/08 15:27:33 (permalink)
    +1. I use the console ALL the time on a separate monitor - I run 60+ tracks most of the time and have no room for WIDE mode. Hmmm.... The old adage goes... If it works...

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    PH68
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    Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/08 15:48:56 (permalink)
    Hmmm.
    Comparing those screenshots then I'm glad I'm not upgrading.

    For me S7 works.
    It doesn't crash.
    I like the layout.
    When it dies... Then i'll upgrade.


    Just because CW send the Sonar bandwagon out every year doesn't mean I have to jump onboard.

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    Manolo
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    Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/08 15:53:44 (permalink)
    Jose7822


    Yeap, I thought this was a weird decision.

    Hope they change this, cause it was better before.

    +1


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    RajahP
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    Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/08 15:56:00 (permalink)
    fribble


    Hi folks,
    I've just seen the new console view for the first time and I'm very disappointed.

    "Narrow strips" are completely unusable now. There is no EQ plot anymore, plug-in names are truncated to just one or two letters. Where are the phase buttons or stereo interleave buttons? What happened to automation read/write enable? Not to mention input and output devices (shown at the bottom). You can see only ONE letter of the track names - A, L, K ?!?! What are these?

    This upgrade was supposed to improve workflow - now I have to guess which channels/plug-ins I'm working on...

    I'm usually working on projects with a high track count and I need to see as many tracks as possible - wide strips are not an option for me. I hope this is getting fixed in an update.

    One more note: there seems to be a display bug, as some dB values are overlapping - you can see it near the bottom of channels 14 and 20.



    Just for comparison: here are the same tracks as shown in Sonar 8.5. It takes even less space on the screen and there's a lot more information readable. See what I mean?


     
     
    That sucks big time..   Ok, now what's positive about the upgrade?
    #17
    JonD
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    Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/08 15:59:04 (permalink)
    I agree with a lot of fribble's comments.   Hopefully, these things get "refined" in a future update.

    That said, -- For the others here who are complaining and don't have the program yet... Can you at least wait until you have it installed and see what is customizable before saying this or that is unusable?

    Just sayin'...


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    n0rd
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    Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/08 16:00:31 (permalink)
    Damn... I was hoping with a "all new GUI" the console would be better not worse :(

    I bet you still can't expand the 'plug-in' or 'send' sections either...
    Let me guess - maximizing console in  X1 just gives you lots of wasted grey area.

    Crap - just looked at pic again - can only see one 'send' now - sad.

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    Rain
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    Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/08 16:01:41 (permalink)
    SongCraft


    The very nature of trying to place a 'real-life-like' mixer in software environment never entirely agreed with me for many reasons such as;



    -
    From the screenshot above, the first thing that jumps out is that those new knobs for trim, send level and track pan take a lot of place that was previously available to display other important information.


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    Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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    Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/08 16:01:56 (permalink)
    n0rd


    Damn... I was hoping with a "all new GUI" the console would be better not worse :(

    I bet you still can't expand the 'plug-in' or 'send' sections either...
    Let me guess - maximizing console in  X1 just gives you lots of wasted grey area.

    Crap - just looked at pic again - can only see one 'send' now - sad.


    No you can show 2 sends - but you have the option now of showing just one, which was not possible before.

    "The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel." WG

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    rainmaker1011
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    Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/08 16:05:11 (permalink)
    If they would replace the gray knobs for something like small sliders, it would save a lot of space.

    I really, really do not like having to scroll up or down for sends and FXs using those small arrows. Very last decade. 



    Best Regards,  
    Marek

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    e.Blue
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    Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/08 16:07:49 (permalink)
    Rain


    SongCraft


    The very nature of trying to place a 'real-life-like' mixer in software environment never entirely agreed with me for many reasons such as;



    -
    From the screenshot above, the first thing that jumps out is that those new knobs for trim, send level and track pan take a lot of place that was previously available to display other important information.

    Yes..I like the old left-right sliders better and a lot of the space for names seems taken up by over-sized drop-down triangles and overly-large fonts.


    -e.B

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    amiller
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    Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/08 16:14:02 (permalink)
    Hmmm...I was looking forward to getting X1 but now have my doubts.  Some of the folks in this thread are, IMHO, the more reasonable folks.  If you guys are having this and other issues...maybe I should just wait...

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    John T
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    Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/08 16:17:26 (permalink)
    Hmm. This narrow implementation looks like a real afterthought to me. I like the new wide view, but this seems to have been not given enough attention. Having the track name on the same line as the number rather than having its own line is an odd decision, as is the size of the power button on plug ins.

    Just looks kind of unfinished. I don't personally use the narrow view a lot, so not a big deal for me, but I can see why it would annoy others.

    On the upside, it doesn't look like the kind of thing that would be hard to improve. Just some narrower fonts and smaller indicators would win back a lot of space, without even radically changing anything.


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    ba_midi
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    Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/08 16:20:54 (permalink)
    amiller


    Hmmm...I was looking forward to getting X1 but now have my doubts.  Some of the folks in this thread are, IMHO, the more reasonable folks.  If you guys are having this and other issues...maybe I should just wait...


    I'm an early adopter, I guess.  But I will say I'm glad I still have 8.5.3.

    I'm playing with X1 for a few hours now and liking it less and less with regard to the console view.

    I'm trying like hell to be open minded as I play with it, but I'm not jumping for joy just yet.



    Billy Arnell (ba-midi)

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    #26
    LJB
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    Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/08 16:24:09 (permalink)
    JonD


    I agree with a lot of fribble's comments.   Hopefully, these things get "refined" in a future update.

    That said, -- For the others here who are complaining and don't have the program yet... Can you at least wait until you have it installed and see what is customizable before saying this or that is unusable?

    Just sayin'...




    Jon,  here's the thing: I make a living out of using Sonar, as many others on this forum do as well. The last thing I can afford is to upgrade and then be stuck with something that makes me lose time/productivity and therefore income. I can also not afford to have downtime in the studio either with unnecessary software issues, crashes or features that are suddenly not available to me. I have already bought X1PE, but I'm starting to wonder if I should just not wait until the forum indicates that I'll be able to use this piece of gear. Meanwhile, after probably thousands of discussions on this forum, some needed features are still not available.. or now removed. It's just strange to me since I have personally been surveyed several times by CW.

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    #27
    ba_midi
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    Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/08 16:25:01 (permalink)
    On the upside, it doesn't look like the kind of thing that would be hard to improve. Just some narrower fonts and smaller indicators would win back a lot of space, without even radically changing anything.


    John,

    If there's one thing I've noticed in the almost 8 years I've been using Sonar -- it's that some of these things get "written in stone", as the old saying goes.

    Just playing with the new so-called "smart tools" it's become apparent to me they are not as "smart" as marketing would have us believe.

    There are still a TON of old style / Old Sonar things in X1 that haven't EVER changed or been updated.

    There are also a bunch of things that are stopping me from working smoothly - but of course some of that is just getting used to the entirely new GUI, entirely new set of keybindings, etc.

    So really this is like buying a new program with a lot of old stuff.   BUT unlike a completely new program, it's a mix between old and new - so the learning curve is weird not just steep.



    Billy Arnell (ba-midi)

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    #28
    D K
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    Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/08 16:28:37 (permalink)
    I'm downloading now..been around here long enough and most who know me know I have never had a problem saying what I think..

    @JonD - I don't have to wait until I get my copy to tell you that showing me 2 sends is not going to work for my work flow - I use console view and I like 4 sends open as I am writing automation..

    Of course it takes a while for the download and I am of cretainly fine with that but in the meantime.... there are (or seems) to be some very curious revelations regarding the ability to customize X1 and it's appearance..at first glance.. it would seem that while they might have given more overall flexibility in layout.. they have also taken away alot of user refinements and options that many have become accustomed to using..

    all the freedom you want.... encased in a 12 x 12 cell.....we will see
    post edited by D K - 2010/12/08 17:03:07

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    #29
    amiller
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    Re:Console view narrow strips Sonar 8.5.3 vs. X1 2010/12/08 16:30:29 (permalink)
    ba_midi


    amiller


    Hmmm...I was looking forward to getting X1 but now have my doubts.  Some of the folks in this thread are, IMHO, the more reasonable folks.  If you guys are having this and other issues...maybe I should just wait...


    I'm an early adopter, I guess.  But I will say I'm glad I still have 8.5.3.

    I'm playing with X1 for a few hours now and liking it less and less with regard to the console view.

    I'm trying like hell to be open minded as I play with it, but I'm not jumping for joy just yet.
    Yes, well, you're one of the folks I respect here.  You're usually pretty forgiving.  So, if you're having issues I think I'll just sit this out for awhile.  Besides, I just got my new DAW loaded with 8.5.3 about a month ago and finally got back to making music.  These kinds of distractions are EXACTLY what I don't want.
     
    I'll keep monitoring the posts here and see what shakes out.  I'm optimistically cautious the big issues will get resolved.

    RAWK!!!

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    #30
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